Seventh Day Adventists

[katgee]

About looking for the Catholic Church on that site…and seeing the beast…don’t mean to get off topic, but I have seen a number of Jehovah Witnesses tracts and almost every issue is denigrating Catholicism…Without it, where would they be???

Such sects attract people who find the study of history overwhelming…

And yes, the church goes back to the Gospels of Christ Himself, instituting His church…

 

[greggy53]

Hi, Greggy53,

I went to the site given for “Doug” and listened for about the first five minutes … this is all the time it took him to get to the point where the “Roman Catholic Church” - hmmmm I guess he means the Catholic Church - the one founded by Christ on Peter … yeah, that one… was the beast depected in Rev 13.

Maybe I am just tired of this type of nonsense that tries to pass itself off as enlightenment - but inviting him… probably is not a good idea.

God bless

The only reason I brought up the SDA web site was because someone questioned whether I was speaking the truth about what they taught. That web site was one of my references. If you or others are offended by what they teach there it is not my fault. It is a legitimate reference and certainly pertinent to the topic of this thread, however unpalatable it may be to some.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

 

[Javl]

About looking for the Catholic Church on that site…and seeing the beast…don’t mean to get off topic, but I have seen a number of Jehovah Witnesses tracts and almost every issue is denigrating Catholicism…Without it, where would they be???

Such sects attract people who find the study of history overwhelming…

And yes, the church goes back to the Gospels of Christ Himself, instituting His church…

Isn’t this attacking of the Catholic Church what Jesus predicted? These cults and all are,
whether they know it or not, doing the work of Satan. He’s still trying to destroy what Our God built. But I’m not worried for He is there, with the Holy Spirit, to protect His Holy Church and we true Catholics. What we have to do is to pray for help in opening the minds and eyes of all those that unknowingly are helping Satan by refusing to recognize and accept the deposit of all truths, the Catholic Church.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

P.S. I’m a Papist too!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Greggy53,

I am not fussing about the reference or that you gave it or that I freely chose to open it up and see what it had to say. I am disappointed with this hate monger who is doing nothing more but spewing out venom under the guise of instruction. “Doug” is the one without references to back up his claim that the CC is the beast in Rev 13.

The only reason I brought up the SDA web site was because someone questioned whether I was speaking the truth about what they taught. That web site was one of my references. If you or others are offended by what they teach there it is not my fault. It is a legitimate reference and certainly pertinent to the topic of this thread, however unpalatable it may be to some.

Yes, this is a legitimate reference for anyone wanting to see this type of nonsense.

And, no, it is not a good idea to have such a person invited mainly because I seriously doubt if he could avoid the name calling - which, I think break the CAF guidelines for showing respect to others.

God bless

 

[happilycatholic]

The only reason I brought up the SDA web site was because someone questioned whether I was speaking the truth about what they taught. That web site was one of my references. If you or others are offended by what they teach there it is not my fault. It is a legitimate reference and certainly pertinent to the topic of this thread, however unpalatable it may be to some.

It’s not that greggy. We all know who Doug is and what he stands for. I just think there are extremists out for their own agendas within all walks, even the catholic walk. I’m not against talking about extremists, but do we want to do that or talk about the meats and potatoes of SDAism and catholicism?

It seems whenever his name is brought up, he gets more air time. I’m just not for that. That’s all.

But if you insist, go for it.

Blessings,

HC

 

[happilycatholic]

Within SDAism there is a spectrum of believers, just as there are a spectrum of Catholic believers. You take me for example, I refer to myself as Roman Catholic when I am posting on line. Some people see Roman Catholic as a put down of Catholicism, a label slapped on us during the eighteen hundreds by our fellow anti-Catholic Americans. But I want there to be no misunderstanding I am a Catholic that is 100% LOYAL to Rome. On the other hand I personally prefer the Novus Ordo Mass in English. I find the Tridentine Mass beautiful and I attended a few times a year, but my preference for regular attendance is the NO. There are some Catholics out there that have issues with that. In my mind, there are Legitimately Catholic believers out there who are liberal, moderate and conservative but which ever group they lean towards they are OBEDIENT to Rome. There are then Catholics out there who are soooooooooooooooooooooo liberal that you can’t even call them Catholic any longer, e.g. “pro-choice Catholics”, Now we all know that you can’t be pro-choice and be Catholic, but son of a gun, there are people out there who call themselves “pro-choice Catholics” go figure. Then there are people out there who call themselves Catholic but say that the Tridentine Mass is the only legitimate valid Mass and that there hasn’t been a genuine pope on the throne in the Vatican since Pius X. Now we know that is contrary to the infallible teaching of the magisterium and people who say such things aren’t really Catholic any more than the “pro-choice Catholics” are Catholic, but there you go.

This is how it is with the SDAs, within the bounds of doctrine you will find a spectrum of SDAs and outside the bounds of doctrine you will find extreme liberals and extreme conservatives who claim to be SDAs but reject key doctrines. Just as there are pseudo-Catholics, so there are pseudo SDAs. To my mind, Paul plans to become one of these pseudo-SDAs.

I guess it’s only human to want your own way.

My two cents on “pro-choice catholics”…disobedient catholics

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It’s always helpful

Blessings,

HC

 

[greggy53]

It’s not that greggy. We all know who Doug is and what he stands for. I just think there are extremists out for their own agendas within all walks, even the catholic walk. I’m not against talking about extremists, but do we want to do that or talk about the meats and potatoes of SDAism and catholicism?

It seems whenever his name is brought up, he gets more air time. I’m just not for that. That’s all.

But if you insist, go for it.

Blessings,

HC

Go for what? What air time?..I listed a web site for refernce.Thats it.

 

[apruett]

I have read this whole thread with great interest. It interests me because I was raised as a 3rd generation 7th Day Adventist, and was educated in their schools. I am now Catholic.

To our Adventist friends here I can discuss each and every doctrine with you that is peculiar to Adventism, and from the Bible, I can show why I no longer believe these things. I have done this before on CAF and will take the time to do so again, if that is what you wish.

I doubt it will do you much good though, because at the end of the day, we have a problem. The problem is simply that Adventists understand scripture according to their traditions, and Catholics understand scriptures according to ours.

So, perhaps it is more helpful to consider what the source of these two traditions are. The Adventist tradition sprang from the failed Millerite Bible interpretations of William Miller, with the Great Disappointment in 1844, when the second advent did not occur, as Miller predicted. From this disappointment, Ellen White began adding her own ideas according to what she believed was her visions from God. She wrote these down along with many things in 55 books referred to as. “The Spirit Of Prophecy”. And Adventists understand scripture according to what she taught. That is a brief history of the beginning of the Adventist tradition, which is only 165 years old.

Catholics, on the other hand share a tradition much older, beginning with all that Jesus Christ taught, not all of which is recorded in the Bible, but was passed down through his 12 Apostles, after He rose from the death of his crucifixion on a Sunday morning, the first Easter. The 12 Apostles spread what was taught and passed it down to those who would come after them. All this almost 2,000 years ago now.

One thing is clear…Adventist and Catholic doctrine differ greatly. So, when Marsha said it is next to impossible to separate Adventist doctrine from what their founders taught, she is correct. The same is true for Catholics. I take great comfort in knowing that the Catholic tradition is built upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

The issue is not whether Adventists are Christians, or whether they are nice, devout people, but more importantly, whether we choose to align ourselves with the tradition passed down from Jesus and the Apostles, or choose to go with our own, or someone else, who perhaps is a bit more creative, tradition. Or to be blunt…truth or error.

Pax Vobis

 

[walker_p]

You claim that the Seventh Day Adventist are “borner line Christians” who are you to judge a person or what they beleive? When did God give you the power of reading a persons heart or what’s on their mind? Second, if the 10 commandments are part of the old testament and “just for the Jews” then let’s kill, lets fornicate, why don’t we treat our parents like **** or maybe we can set up false idols and worship them, and pray to them, oh I forgot some people are doing this already. If the old testament is old history and the commandments were just written by the finger of God, and they count for nothing today, then let’s cut the Bible in half and throw the old testament in the garbage! Use the common sense God gave you! WHY DO YOU DEFEND MAN MADE LAWS LIKE SUNDAY! IF SUNDAY IS SO HOLY THEN PROVE IT! FIND ONE VERSE IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE THAT TELLS US TO KEEP SUNDAY AS GOD’S HOLY DAY! You seem to know the scriptures.
You say that the SDA church is a false church and you said to read John 15, where Jesus says to love one another.
Well let me ask you a question? Would you consider a church that burns people alive, tortures human beings because they believe differently then everyone else the correct church. Maybe I miss read the scriptures, but I have NEVER read that Jesus Christ the SON OF GOD, EVER!!! Beat or burned anyone, because they didn’t follow him.

Here’s a quote from the enclyclopedia of your “methods of Love for your fellow brothers”:

“The methods of torture most used by the Inquisition were garrucha, toca and the potro. The application of the garrucha, also known as the strappado, consisted of suspending the victim from the ceiling by a pulley with weights tied to the ankles, with a series of lifts and drops, during which arms and legs suffered violent pulls and were sometimes dislocated. The toca, also called interrogatorio mejorado del agua, consisted of introducing a cloth into the mouth of the victim, and forcing them to ingest water spilled from a jar so that they had impression of drowning (see: waterboarding). The potro, the rack, was the instrument of torture used most frequently.”
The LOVE that the Roman Catholic Church showed humanbeings through out the years of the Inquision was one of a “true church” that professes love for it’s fellow man.

If Jesus died for me on the cross (killed by the “ROMANS”), and his blood covers my sins, then WHY do I need to confess my sins to a sinful man (preist)? Is it that Jesus’s blood isn’t powerful enogh to clean my soul of sin. Or, maybe Jesus is to busy to hear me pray, and that’s why accourding to you, he needs men (priest) to help the prayers move along. The only thing you say that makes any sense what so ever, is when you called me disobedient!
You hit the nail on the head! I am and will die being disobedient to men that think they are God and try to take God’s position.
Only God can forgive sins, not the Catholic Church, not the Seventh Day Adventist Chuch, not the Mormons, or the Baptist, and especially not the Pope or his priest!
I hope you can some day realize that it’s about following God or Man, you can’t serve both!
PS> I’ll be waiting for the Bible text that tells me to keep SUNDAY HOLY!
Love Ern!

Apparently, you neither understand Catholicism or your own SDA church. Why do you need to confess your sins to a priest? How about because Jesus Christ Himself said to. Is that a good enough reason? Did you read John 20:23? I will follow the only Church founded by Christ Himself and the leaders he established for his Church. You follow a church founded by a false prophet named Ellen Gould White (1827-1915). Jesus founded the Church in the first century on Peter (Kepha in Aramaic). He did not found the church in the 19th century on Ellen G. White. Ellen White suffered a traumatic brain injury as a child of about 9 years old, and this is the source of her false visions. Ellen White claims the Sabbath is the greatest commandment. Jesus Christ says Ellen White is a liar. Jesus said the two greatest commandments are to love God and your neighbor. Thus the Sabbath at best can only be in third place. All the commandments were repeated in the New Testament except the Sabbath commandment. When a new law replaces an old one, no part of the old law remains, unless it is specifically stated that it is a part of the new law. I suggest reading Colossians 2:16-17 and 2nd Corinthians chapter 3.
Jesus gave the Church the authority to speak and teach in his name. In Acts 15 at the first Church council the matter of Gentiles following the Mosaic law in order to be saved was decided. Notice they said nothing about Gentiles having to keep the Jewish Sabbath. You cannot show me a single verse in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that makes the Jewish Sabbath binding on a Gentile. Show me the verse requiring me to keep Saturday holy. You can’t.

 

[phummel]

Hello Tom,
Trying to catch-up…

I love the McDonalds analogy. Much heretical humor runs through my head. What SDAs all have in common is the McBible. KJV seems to be preferred.

As far as not sticking to doctrine, most people, especially in the church, overlook our preamble. The preamble to the church’s statement of fundamental beliefs underscores its commitment to intellectual honesty, Biblical faithfulness, and the spirit of inquiry. As far as I am concerned, if there is doctrine that doesn’t lead us to the Bible and Christ, it needs to be carefully scrutinized and perhaps discarded.

Also, we don’t want to divide and standup new doctrines. Rather we want to see faulty doctrines and beliefs removed. In 1957 our church published the Questions on Doctrine - this was tetonic shift and many got left behind. It’s caused a lot of pain and left some people stranded. IMO, it was the right thing to do and I would like to see one more shift like that. I think the GC is taking a more evolutionary approach to change now. Probably wise, but it takes time to change hearts and minds.

Here is an example from our Sabbath School on these subtle shifts. I think the quarterly lesson was on the Gift of Prophecy. This particular lesson had an example of 3 prophets -

1. The lying prophet - 1 Kings 13
2. Prophet who wanted to do wrong but was stopped by God - Numbers 22
3. Prophet who was mistaken but God corrected - 1 Chronicles 17
   What’s the point? That prophets aren’t infalliable and they are not on the clock 24x7. You can see this leading up to EGW’s role. We even talked about Ex Cathedra. I.e., the pope is not infalliable 24x7…

Marsha,
I think you have a fair assessment. Have you ever heard of cafeteria Catholics? You know pick and choose the dishes you want. You are right in saying SDA has the same thing.

blessings,
paul

 

[phummel]

I have read this whole thread with great interest. It interests me because I was raised as a 3rd generation 7th Day Adventist, and was educated in their schools. I am now Catholic.

To our Adventist friends here I can discuss each and every doctrine with you that is peculiar to Adventism, and from the Bible, I can show why I no longer believe these things. I have done this before on CAF and will take the time to do so again, if that is what you wish.

I doubt it will do you much good though, because at the end of the day, we have a problem. The problem is simply that Adventists understand scripture according to their traditions, and Catholics understand scriptures according to ours.

So, perhaps it is more helpful to consider what the source of these two traditions are. The Adventist tradition sprang from the failed Millerite Bible interpretations of William Miller, with the Great Disappointment in 1844, when the second advent did not occur, as Miller predicted. From this disappointment, Ellen White began adding her own ideas according to what she believed was her visions from God. She wrote these down along with many things in 55 books referred to as. “The Spirit Of Prophecy”. And Adventists understand scripture according to what she taught. That is a brief history of the beginning of the Adventist tradition, which is only 165 years old.

Catholics, on the other hand share a tradition much older, beginning with all that Jesus Christ taught, not all of which is recorded in the Bible, but was passed down through his 12 Apostles, after He rose from the death of his crucifixion on a Sunday morning, the first Easter. The 12 Apostles spread what was taught and passed it down to those who would come after them. All this almost 2,000 years ago now.

One thing is clear…Adventist and Catholic doctrine differ greatly. So, when Marsha said it is next to impossible to separate Adventist doctrine from what their founders taught, she is correct. The same is true for Catholics. I take great comfort in knowing that the Catholic tradition is built upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

The issue is not whether Adventists are Christians, or whether they are nice, devout people, but more importantly, whether we choose to align ourselves with the tradition passed down from Jesus and the Apostles, or choose to go with our own, or someone else, who perhaps is a bit more creative, tradition. Or to be blunt…truth or error.

Pax Vobis

Welcome apruett,

I would love to see your list of doctrines that are peculiar to SDA.

Here are the peculiar ones I hold:

• Sabbath as my day of worship
• Of course, a keeness for His 2nd coming but IMO I will probably not see it.
• The state of the dead (soul sleep) and resurrection.
• Rejection of eternal torments of hell.
• Emphasis on health (not really doctrine)

a bit more creative, tradition. Or to be blunt…truth or error
Lol - “creative”, that was gracious of you!

God bless you,
paul

 

[Javl]

Welcome apruett,

I would love to see your list of doctrines that are peculiar to SDA.

Here are the peculiar ones I hold:

• Sabbath as my day of worship
• Of course, a keeness for His 2nd coming but IMO I will probably not see it.
• The state of the dead (soul sleep) and resurrection.
• Rejection of eternal torments of hell.
• Emphasis on health (not really doctrine)

a bit more creative, tradition. Or to be blunt…truth or error
Lol - “creative”, that was gracious of you!

Paul:
I wish you would open your eyes to the truths of Jesus Christ, as given by him to the Catholic Church. Or would you rather flounder along believing erroneously that the LDS church is guided by the Holy Spirit? There are about 30,000 other churches, each going its own way, who claim this same thing. The CC is 2000 years old and it alone is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ because He said so. The CC has taught these same truths without error or change from its foundation to the present time.
It cannot be proven otherwise. Sorry to say, the LDS church is in deep error and has rejected most of the teachings and truths of Christ.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[apruett]

Welcome apruett,

I would love to see your list of doctrines that are peculiar to SDA.

Here are the peculiar ones I hold:

• Sabbath as my day of worship
• Of course, a keeness for His 2nd coming but IMO I will probably not see it.
• The state of the dead (soul sleep) and resurrection.
• Rejection of eternal torments of hell.
• Emphasis on health (not really doctrine)

a bit more creative, tradition. Or to be blunt…truth or error
Lol - “creative”, that was gracious of you!

Hi Paul,

Your list is pretty close to my list, but you missed the biggest one. As much as Adventists love to claim the Protestant virtue of “the Bible only”, being sufficient to teach them, it is ironic to this claim that they allow for the “divine inspiration” of Ellen White, contained in 55 books, which they view as the “Spirit Of Prophecy”. So as much as they would claim “the Bible only”, her writings are the filter through which they understand scripture, and anything peculiar to them, largely came from what she wrote.

Some of what she believed is just patchwork from other Protestant Churches. For example, the Saturday Sabbath came from her associates that were from 7th Day Baptists background. If you look on their websites you will see their understanding of the the obligation of the Sabbath explained as the “dual law theory”, which she adopted for Adventists. Another example would be her understanding of Sanctification, which came from her own Methodist background and was taught by John Wesley. And of course, any student of Church history could not help but compare her and the Adventists to the Gnostics, who believed that they had “secret knowledge” given to them, that apparently God kept, from even His own Apostles and the Church they founded.

I wonder if you are aware that in the past, the Ellen White Estate in association with the Adventist Church have edited her books, to remove sections which would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, she was a false prophet? As far as the other comments about what happened in 1957, I can tell you without a doubt, that there was no change in their beliefs and practices after this date. I graduated from Mt. Vernon Academy in 1975, after four years of being instructed in their schools and a lifetime in their Church. They were as zealous for her writings then as ever. Although my father is deceased, my mother is still an Adventist, and I can tell you that their beliefs remain totally unchanged.

Their whole dual law theory is convoluted, not true, and distorts the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you are going to accept her writings as a filter by which you will be instructed, whether you read them yourself or not, then it is only prudent that you should measure these by what is taught by the Church Fathers themselves.

Pax Vobis

 

[phummel]

Hi Paul,

Your list is pretty close to my list, but you missed the biggest one. As much as Adventists love to claim the Protestant virtue of “the Bible only”, being sufficient to teach them, it is ironic to this claim that they allow for the “divine inspiration” of Ellen White, contained in 55 books, which they view as the “Spirit Of Prophecy”. So as much as they would claim “the Bible only”, her writings are the filter through which they understand scripture, and anything peculiar to them, largely came from what she wrote.

Some of what she believed is just patchwork from other Protestant Churches. For example, the Saturday Sabbath came from her associates that were from 7th Day Baptists background. If you look on their websites you will see their understanding of the the obligation of the Sabbath explained as the “dual law theory”, which she adopted for Adventists. Another example would be her understanding of Sanctification, which came from her own Methodist background and was taught by John Wesley. And of course, any student of Church history could not help but compare her and the Adventists to the Gnostics, who believed that they had “secret knowledge” given to them, that apparently God kept, from even His own Apostles and the Church they founded.

I wonder if you are aware that in the past, the Ellen White Estate in association with the Adventist Church have edited her books, to remove sections which would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, she was a false prophet? As far as the other comments about what happened in 1957, I can tell you without a doubt, that there was no change in their beliefs and practices after this date. I graduated from Mt. Vernon Academy in 1975, after four years of being instructed in their schools and a lifetime in their Church. They were as zealous for her writings then as ever. Although my father is deceased, my mother is still an Adventist, and I can tell you that their beliefs remain totally unchanged.

Their whole dual law theory is convoluted, not true, and distorts the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you are going to accept her writings as a filter by which you will be instructed, whether you read them yourself or not, then it is only prudent that you should measure these by what is taught by the Church Fathers themselves.

Pax Vobis

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your comments and thoughts. On being Bible only, I would say that this is largely true with my experience in the church. Occassionally someone will reference “Desire of Ages”, but sermons and Sabbath School discussions are all scripture.
I’ve noticed that the GC lessons will be Bible based Sunday-Thursday, but then on Friday they will have additional readings from EGW.

I am aware that Mrs. White’s writings have been doctored. I found earlier publications of some of her writings. I realize what I see today has been cleansed and rewritten by committee.

Funny that you said patchwork. I’ve always compared my faith to a quilt. Many squares are from SDA but there are also stitches from RC, Methodist, Baptist.

I haven’t witnessed the “secret knowledge” part either.

A story to share …
My mom and dad visited me about a month ago from PA and went to church with me. We did Sabbath School together and one of the elders gave the sermon that day. The sermon was based on Jacob and Rachel and the hidden idols we keep. My parents background → father - was Methodist, now Presbytarian; mother - was RC, now Methodist. Anyway, they got a good Bible based sermon and left with no worries about their son. That was my litmus test.

I’ve visited 3 other churches myself. One is predominantly African American - I’ve gone there twice and have been blessed both times. Worship style has a bit more Holy Spirit but I am very fond of many people there too. They are a bit more works oriented, which I like. When I visit my folks in PA, I visit the SDA church in their town. No problem - we’re all on the same page.

For the third, I was invited by a friend to visit her church in Western VA. Wow, here was a traditional SDA church. Very deep into prophecy, Ellen White, and the Catholic Church was mentioned unkindly more than once. This church is closely associated with Hartland, www.hartland.edu. The GC does not own the church and you probably know Hartland is independent too. Someone invited me to their house for the day - I got an earful about Jesuits, Masons, and Illuminati. Honestly, I was horrified.

As for you not seeing a change, I think in the seventies and eighties you started to see some of the fruits. Guys like Brinsmead, Ford, and Maxwell really challenged the church. I have a great deal of respect for Des Ford even though I don’t share his theology.
I’m a big fan of Graham Maxwell, but I know he tries to synthesize the Bible and EGW too much. Still Maxwell is a very gracious and loving Christian and has an inviting message for all Christians.

blessings,
paul

 

[apruett]

Hi Alan,

Thank you for your comments and thoughts. On being Bible only, I would say that this is largely true with my experience in the church. Occassionally someone will reference “Desire of Ages”, but sermons and Sabbath School discussions are all scripture.
I’ve noticed that the GC lessons will be Bible based Sunday-Thursday, but then on Friday they will have additional readings from EGW.

I am aware that Mrs. White’s writings have been doctored. I found earlier publications of some of her writings. I realize what I see today has been cleansed and rewritten by committee.

Funny that you said patchwork. I’ve always compared my faith to a quilt. Many squares are from SDA but there are also stitches from RC, Methodist, Baptist.

I haven’t witnessed the “secret knowledge” part either.

Hello again Paul,

I am wondering why, if you know that the SDA Church was dishonest enough to doctor Ellen White’s writings, and if you know that the unedited writings are foundational to the Adventist Church, why you want anything to do with them? Sure, you can here good biblical sermons from individuals, and I myself still have friends among the Adventist Church, whom I went to school with or otherwise knew. Never the less, I could not lend my support or be part of a “church” so called, that was dishonest with their people, and whose doctrines are founded on much error.

When doctrine departs from the historic Christian faith, it becomes schismatic and is therefore divisive among the body of Christ. This is against the prayers of Jesus himself.
The “secret knowledge” I mentioned, is in reference to Ellen White’s visions. She taught that she had special revelations from God, and thus, so do Adventists, that the rest of the Christian Church did not have. It goes to there whole theory of themselves as the Remnant Church, to the neglect of all other Christians, based on what they define as their obedience to the 4th commandment, regarding the keeping the Sabbath holy. This permeates their entire character as a church. Why do you want to be a part of anything like this? Why do you want to lend your presence and support to a historically dishonest group that teaches error? I hope you run the other way…fast!

Pax Vobis

A story to share …
My mom and dad visited me about a month ago from PA and went to church with me. We did Sabbath School together and one of the elders gave the sermon that day. The sermon was based on Jacob and Rachel and the hidden idols we keep. My parents background → father - was Methodist, now Presbytarian; mother - was RC, now Methodist. Anyway, they got a good Bible based sermon and left with no worries about their son. That was my litmus test.

I’ve visited 3 other churches myself. One is predominantly African American - I’ve gone there twice and have been blessed both times. Worship style has a bit more Holy Spirit but I am very fond of many people there too. They are a bit more works oriented, which I like. When I visit my folks in PA, I visit the SDA church in their town. No problem - we’re all on the same page.

For the third, I was invited by a friend to visit her church in Western VA. Wow, here was a traditional SDA church. Very deep into prophecy, Ellen White, and the Catholic Church was mentioned unkindly more than once. This church is closely associated with Hartland, www.hartland.edu. The GC does not own the church and you probably know Hartland is independent too. Someone invited me to their house for the day - I got an earful about Jesuits, Masons, and Illuminati. Honestly, I was horrified.

As for you not seeing a change, I think in the seventies and eighties you started to see some of the fruits. Guys like Brinsmead, Ford, and Maxwell really challenged the church. I have a great deal of respect for Des Ford even though I don’t share his theology.
I’m a big fan of Graham Maxwell, but I know he tries to synthesize the Bible and EGW too much. Still Maxwell is a very gracious and loving Christian and has an inviting message for all Christians.

blessings,
paul

 

[apruett]

Hello again Paul,

I am wondering why, if you know that the SDA Church was dishonest enough to doctor Ellen White’s writings, and if you know that the unedited writings are foundational to the Adventist Church, why you want anything to do with them? Sure, you can here good biblical sermons from individuals, and I myself still have friends among the Adventist Church, whom I went to school with or otherwise knew. Never the less, I could not lend my support or be part of a “church” so called, that was dishonest with their people, and whose doctrines are founded on much error.

When doctrine departs from the historic Christian faith, it becomes schismatic and is therefore divisive among the body of Christ. This is against the prayers of Jesus himself.
The “secret knowledge” I mentioned, is in reference to Ellen White’s visions. She taught that she had special revelations from God, and thus, so do Adventists, that the rest of the Christian Church did not have. It goes to there whole theory of themselves as the Remnant Church, to the neglect of all other Christians, based on what they define as their obedience to the 4th commandment, regarding the keeping the Sabbath holy. This permeates their entire character as a church. Why do you want to be a part of anything like this? Why do you want to lend your presence and support to a historically dishonest group that teaches error? I hope you run the other way…fast!

Pax Vobis

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Marsha,
I think you have a fair assessment. Have you ever heard of cafeteria Catholics? You know pick and choose the dishes you want. You are right in saying SDA has the same thing.

blessings,
paul

You miss my point. There are Catholics and there are non-Catholics. Cafeteria Catholics fall into the non-Catholic category. There are SDAs and there are non-SDAs. Why do you want to convert to non-SDAism?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Paul and Alan:

There is only one doctrine unique to the SDA denomination and that is the Cleansing of the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgement.

Every other doctrine that the SDAs hold is also held by some other Protestant Denomination.

Now, here’s the punchline. The SDA Cleansing of the Sanctuary is actually a distortion of the Biblical doctrine of the Mass, and the Investigative Judgement is a misunderstanding of the pre-resurrection judgement that occurs at death.

It was the SDA Sanctuary Doctrine that I saw so clearly lived out in the Mass that paved the road to my conversion to Catholicism.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Apruett,

Allow me to welcome you to the list…

Thank you for sharing your experience. While I am a Cradle Catholic, I am aware of at least some of he pain associated with the disfellowship you experienced.

I have read this whole thread with great interest. It interests me because I was raised as a 3rd generation 7th Day Adventist, and was educated in their schools. I am now Catholic.

To our Adventist friends here I can discuss each and every doctrine with you that is peculiar to Adventism, and from the Bible, I can show why I no longer believe these things. I have done this before on CAF and will take the time to do so again, if that is what you wish.

I doubt it will do you much good though, because at the end of the day, we have a problem. The problem is simply that Adventists understand scripture according to their traditions, and Catholics understand scriptures according to ours.

So, perhaps it is more helpful to consider what the source of these two traditions are. The Adventist tradition sprang from the failed Millerite Bible interpretations of William Miller, with the Great Disappointment in 1844, when the second advent did not occur, as Miller predicted. From this disappointment, Ellen White began adding her own ideas according to what she believed was her visions from God. She wrote these down along with many things in 55 books referred to as. “The Spirit Of Prophecy”. And Adventists understand scripture according to what she taught. That is a brief history of the beginning of the Adventist tradition, which is only 165 years old.

Catholics, on the other hand share a tradition much older, beginning with all that Jesus Christ taught, not all of which is recorded in the Bible, but was passed down through his 12 Apostles, after He rose from the death of his crucifixion on a Sunday morning, the first Easter. The 12 Apostles spread what was taught and passed it down to those who would come after them. All this almost 2,000 years ago now.

One thing is clear…Adventist and Catholic doctrine differ greatly. So, when Marsha said it is next to impossible to separate Adventist doctrine from what their founders taught, she is correct. The same is true for Catholics. I take great comfort in knowing that the Catholic tradition is built upon Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

The issue is not whether Adventists are Christians, or whether they are nice, devout people, but more importantly, whether we choose to align ourselves with the tradition passed down from Jesus and the Apostles, or choose to go with our own, or someone else, who perhaps is a bit more creative, tradition. Or to be blunt…truth or error.

Pax Vobis

God bless