Seventh Day Adventists

[phummel]

Hello again Paul,

I am wondering why, if you know that the SDA Church was dishonest enough to doctor Ellen White’s writings, and if you know that the unedited writings are foundational to the Adventist Church, why you want anything to do with them? Sure, you can here good biblical sermons from individuals, and I myself still have friends among the Adventist Church, whom I went to school with or otherwise knew. Never the less, I could not lend my support or be part of a “church” so called, that was dishonest with their people, and whose doctrines are founded on much error.

When doctrine departs from the historic Christian faith, it becomes schismatic and is therefore divisive among the body of Christ. This is against the prayers of Jesus himself.
The “secret knowledge” I mentioned, is in reference to Ellen White’s visions. She taught that she had special revelations from God, and thus, so do Adventists, that the rest of the Christian Church did not have. It goes to there whole theory of themselves as the Remnant Church, to the neglect of all other Christians, based on what they define as their obedience to the 4th commandment, regarding the keeping the Sabbath holy. This permeates their entire character as a church. Why do you want to be a part of anything like this? Why do you want to lend your presence and support to a historically dishonest group that teaches error? I hope you run the other way…fast!

Pax Vobis

Hi Allen,

I was drawn in by the health message. I was drawn in by someone I worked with. Then a small group of SDA members and finally kept onboard by some good friends in my church family. I honestly see glimpses of Christ in them. It just fills me up - Sabbath, good works, health - I feel in harmony with God. I am happy to give my time, treasures, and talents to this church.

I join them in the highest sense of freedom.

I just keep my eye on the ball, it’s about Jesus and His teachings and His love. And when I share Jesus, I know people in my church are blessed by it too. It just seems so simple sometimes.

God bless you,
paul

 

[phummel]

Paul and Alan:

There is only one doctrine unique to the SDA denomination and that is the Cleansing of the Sanctuary/Investigative Judgement.

Every other doctrine that the SDAs hold is also held by some other Protestant Denomination.

Now, here’s the punchline. The SDA Cleansing of the Sanctuary is actually a distortion of the Biblical doctrine of the Mass, and the Investigative Judgement is a misunderstanding of the pre-resurrection judgement that occurs at death.

It was the SDA Sanctuary Doctrine that I saw so clearly lived out in the Mass that paved the road to my conversion to Catholicism.

Hi Marsha,

That is interesting. How do you reconcile judgment and grace? What is the Catholic perspective on grace? If grace alone is what is needed for salvation, then how does judgment fit in?
I personally believe that if I accept His grace I will have salvation. This love has changed my heart and makes me want to walk closer with Him.

IJ is one of the things I left out because I don’t subscribe to it. Which brings us to why would I become a pseudo-SDA. I’ve been blessed by this church. My time, talents, and treasures are all appreciated. My pastor and elders know my love for Jesus and my theology and still accept me. In fact, two of my elders are quite progressive too, and no one would suggest they are non-SDA. They were born on the bus - now in their fifties and eighties.

Thank you and God bless you,
paul

 

[apruett]

Hi, Apruett,

Allow me to welcome you to the list…

Thank you for sharing your experience. While I am a Cradle Catholic, I am aware of at least some of he pain associated with the disfellowship you experienced.

God bless

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the welcome! I’m not sure what you mean by pain of dis-fellowship I experienced. When I originally studied my way out of Adventism, it was more of a crisis of, I wasn’t sure what the truth was, rather than any damaging effects to any relationships I had. I really did not experience that so much, except that my mother, obviously disagrees with me. For whatever pain you experienced, I am sorry that was the case for you. Did you grow up as an Adventist too?

Peace to you,

 

[apruett]

Hi Allen,

I was drawn in by the health message. I was drawn in by someone I worked with. Then a small group of SDA members and finally kept onboard by some good friends in my church family. I honestly see glimpses of Christ in them. It just fills me up - Sabbath, good works, health - I feel in harmony with God. I am happy to give my time, treasures, and talents to this church.

I join them in the highest sense of freedom.

I just keep my eye on the ball, it’s about Jesus and His teachings and His love. And when I share Jesus, I know people in my church are blessed by it too. It just seems so simple sometimes.

God bless you,
paul

Paul,

I have no qualms for anyone who wants to live a healthier life. However, it is wrong to teach that Judaic dietary laws are binding on Christians and that not to observe them is a sin. Once again, Adventists are supposed to accept it because Ellen White says she received this from God as divine inspiration, in spite of New Testament evidence to the contrary. How is that freedom? If you want to live a healthier life and even be a vegetarian, you can do that within the Catholic Church. The Church just won’t tell you that you are sinful if you don’t. Who then offers the more freedom on this point? I can go to Mass on Saturdays in the Catholic Church if I wish, but the Catholic Church will not tell me it is sinful if I attend on Sundays, in honor of Christ’s victory over death. Yet breaking the Sabbath with Adventists, is taught as a sin. More freedom I think here in the Catholic faith.

You mention your own theology, feeling in harmony with God, and seeing glimpses of Christ in others in the Adventist Church. Your willingness to share your faith in Christ, your time, your talents and your love are all commendable and important, and you can do all those things within the Catholic Church. That you see glimpses of Christ in others, I do not doubt. I would not say that there are those in the SDA church who do not have a relationship with Christ. I myself, believed in Christ, long before I entered the Catholic Church. On the theology front though, I would wish you to think less of your own rationality and compare your beliefs with the standards of the historic Christian faith. I commend to you the words of the Apostle John, in II John 7 - 11.

Pax Vobix

 

[apruett]

Hi Marsha,

That is interesting. How do you reconcile judgment and grace? What is the Catholic perspective on grace? If grace alone is what is needed for salvation, then how does judgment fit in?

Thank you and God bless you,
paul

Paul,

How is it that you have to ask Marsha or anyone else on how to reconciling judgment and grace, and what the Catholic perspective on these things are? Don’t you think it is prudent to be sure of the beliefs you are converting from, before you convert to another faith? I wonder if you have ever totally understood the fullness of the Catholic faith.

Catholic belief is simply that Christ’s salvation is totally an act of His grace, which is of itself a gift of God, that we activate by faith. He pardons our sins according to the merits of Christ’s atonement on the cross, and our faith grows and manifests itself in good works.

As far as judgment goes, the book of Romans teaches us that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ and called, according to His mercy. While we suffer the ramifications of our own failures, here on earth, if we keep the faith, we Christ’s salvation as a free gift.

Peace to you,

 

[Javl]

Paul,

I have no qualms for anyone who wants to live a healthier life. However, it is wrong to teach that Judaic dietary laws are binding on Christians and that not to observe them is a sin. Once again, Adventists are supposed to accept it because Ellen White says she received this from God as divine inspiration, in spite of New Testament evidence to the contrary. How is that freedom? If you want to live a healthier life and even be a vegetarian, you can do that within the Catholic Church. The Church just won’t tell you that you are sinful if you don’t. Who then offers the more freedom on this point? I can go to Mass on Saturdays in the Catholic Church if I wish, but the Catholic Church will not tell me it is sinful if I attend on Sundays, in honor of Christ’s victory over death. Yet breaking the Sabbath with Adventists, is taught as a sin. More freedom I think here in the Catholic faith.

You mention your own theology, feeling in harmony with God, and seeing glimpses of Christ in others in the Adventist Church. Your willingness to share your faith in Christ, your time, your talents and your love are all commendable and important, and you can do all those things within the Catholic Church. That you see glimpses of Christ in others, I do not doubt. I would not say that there are those in the SDA church who do not have a relationship with Christ. I myself, believed in Christ, long before I entered the Catholic Church. On the theology front though, I would wish you to think less of your own rationality and compare your beliefs with the standards of the historic Christian faith. I commend to you the words of the Apostle John, in II John 7 - 11.

Pax Vobix

Allen:

If I may put my two cents worth in; without any malice, I say that Paul is of the species that “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts!”. I’m sorry to say that his mindset is such that any reason or logic will not convince him otherwise. He is infatuated with what he sees and hears at present and wants to partake of it, whether true or false. Let’s pray for him that this infatuation will not last long and that the Holy Spirit will awaken him soon.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[apruett]

Allen:

If I may put my two cents worth in; without any malice, I say that Paul is of the species that “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts!”. I’m sorry to say that his mindset is such that any reason or logic will not convince him otherwise. He is infatuated with what he sees and hears at present and wants to partake of it, whether true or false. Let’s pray for him that this infatuation will not last long and that the Holy Spirit will awaken him soon.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Len,

Let us not judge anyone’s heart. There are many voices out there, and theology can be a source of confusion. It may also be that he did not receive the personal warmth in his own experience in the Catholic faith, that he has now experienced elsewhere. I don’t know this to be true, but let us remind ourselves to show Christ’s love to those we come in contact with.

Pax Vobis

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Hi Marsha,

That is interesting. How do you reconcile judgment and grace? What is the Catholic perspective on grace? If grace alone is what is needed for salvation, then how does judgment fit in?I personally believe that if I accept His grace I will have salvation. This love has changed my heart and makes me want to walk closer with Him.

IJ is one of the things I left out because I don’t subscribe to it. Which brings us to why would I become a pseudo-SDA. I’ve been blessed by this church. My time, talents, and treasures are all appreciated. My pastor and elders know my love for Jesus and my theology and still accept me. In fact, two of my elders are quite progressive too, and no one would suggest they are non-SDA. They were born on the bus - now in their fifties and eighties.

Thank you and God bless you,
paul

We are saved by God’s grace alone. The Sacraments are the avenues by which God directs His grace to us. Grace gives us victory over sin. If we reject that grace then we will be judged for it.

It is interesting to me that you are becoming SDA but you reject the only uniquely SDA doctrine.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Len,

Let us not judge anyone’s heart. There are many voices out there, and theology can be a source of confusion. It may also be that he did not receive the personal warmth in his own experience in the Catholic faith, that he has now experienced elsewhere. I don’t know this to be true, but let us remind ourselves to show Christ’s love to those we come in contact with.

Pax Vobis

Salvation is not the result of personal warmth.

 

[Javl]

Len,

Let us not judge anyone’s heart. There are many voices out there, and theology can be a source of confusion. It may also be that he did not receive the personal warmth in his own experience in the Catholic faith, that he has now experienced elsewhere. I don’t know this to be true, but let us remind ourselves to show Christ’s love to those we come in contact with.

Pax Vobis

Paul:

Yes, I agree to a point. But, as Marsha states, salvation is not the reult of personal warmth. All I see is obstinatcy. Didn’t Jesus say that the road to heaven is rocky and
narrow, but the road to perdition is wide and smooth?

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[apruett]

Paul:

Yes, I agree to a point. But, as Marsha states, salvation does not depend on personal warmth. All I see is obstinatcy. Didn’t Jesus say that the road to heaven is rocky and the gate narrow, but the road to perdition is wide and smooth?

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I agree with both You & Marsha. I just meant that it is important to make other feel welcome in our Churches. I wasn’t speaking of it as a means of salvation on any level.

Pax Vobis

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Apruett,

I am sorry I was not clear. By “Cradle Catholic” I meant I was an infant when Baptized a Catholic.

No, my experience is very limited here. I listened to a person talk about how they were shunned and since so much of their life is involved with and dependent on the community of believers, to be put out and effectively ignored was very painful. Ultimately, this person had to move away.

God bless - and, I am confident you will received many blessed insights into our Faith by participating in CAF.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the welcome! I’m not sure what you mean by pain of dis-fellowship I experienced. When I originally studied my way out of Adventism, it was more of a crisis of, I wasn’t sure what the truth was, rather than any damaging effects to any relationships I had. I really did not experience that so much, except that my mother, obviously disagrees with me. For whatever pain you experienced, I am sorry that was the case for you. Did you grow up as an Adventist too?

Peace to you,

God bless

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I agree with both You & Marsha. I just meant that it is important to make other feel welcome in our Churches. I wasn’t speaking of it as a means of salvation on any level.

Pax Vobis

While I was receiving instruction in the faith, I went to Mass one Saturday evening. I was running late, so I popped in through the side door instead of the main entrance of the church. To my amazement, that door way put me by the second pew from the front. I slipped into the second pew and knelt. I was right in front of the tabernacle. A wave of warmth rushed out from the tabernacle and swept over me. I felt the presence of God so strongly, it took my breathe away. When Mass was over and I went to leave I turned and saw that there were several hundred other people in the Church that I had been totally unaware of being there. It had seemed like there was only Jesus in the Eucharist and me.

At that time, being early in my instruction, I had not known about transubstantiation, but I experience the reality of it nevertheless.

Perhaps that is why I just can’t understand people who complain that people in the Catholic Church are warm enough and welcoming enough. When you have Jesus in the Eucharist and the warmth of the presence of God, doesn’t that pretty much trump the human warm and fuzzies?

 

[apruett]

While I was receiving instruction in the faith, I went to Mass one Saturday evening. I was running late, so I popped in through the side door instead of the main entrance of the church. To my amazement, that door way put me by the second pew from the front. I slipped into the second pew and knelt. I was right in front of the tabernacle. A wave of warmth rushed out from the tabernacle and swept over me. I felt the presence of God so strongly, it took my breathe away. When Mass was over and I went to leave I turned and saw that there were several hundred other people in the Church that I had been totally unaware of being there. It had seemed like there was only Jesus in the Eucharist and me.

At that time, being early in my instruction, I had not known about transubstantiation, but I experience the reality of it nevertheless.

Perhaps that is why I just can’t understand people who complain that people in the Catholic Church are warm enough and welcoming enough. When you have Jesus in the Eucharist and the warmth of the presence of God, doesn’t that pretty much trump the human warm and fuzzies?

Marsha,

Thanks for sharing your experience! I find it quite inspirational!

Pax Vobis

 

[Javl]

I agree with both You & Marsha. I just meant that it is important to make other feel welcome in our Churches. I wasn’t speaking of it as a means of salvation on any level.

Pax Vobis

Yes, but not as important as being with Jesus. If community, or congregational warmth is more important, to make you feel welcome,then I guess Jesus willl just have to take a back seat. After all, isn’t the purpose of going to church is to be with Jesus and worship Him?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

We are saved by God’s grace alone. The Sacraments are the avenues by which God directs His grace to us. Grace gives us victory over sin. If we reject that grace then we will be judged for it.

We receive grace through faith, not through the receiving of any sacrament.
Romans 5:2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:12For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If the amount of grace that is dispensed was in proportion to the amount of times you went to communion, that would be salvation by works and those who don’t go to the Catholic communion would be lost. The bible certainly does not teach this.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[greggy53]

We receive grace through faith, not through the receiving of any sacrament.

Not according to the scriptures, and the Church. The sacraments were instituted by our Lord.

Romans 5:2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 5:12For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
If the amount of grace that is dispensed was in proportion to the amount of times you went to communion, that would be salvation by works and those who don’t go to the Catholic communion would be lost. The bible certainly does not teach this.
Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The Chruch embaces these and all the scritpures, but you evidently reject ones you don’t like.
John6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day
The Bible certainly does teach this…You choose to ignore it at your peril.

 

[happilycatholic]

We receive grace through faith, not through the receiving of any sacrament.

Respectfully Richard,

You can’t say how I receive God’s Grace. You cannot deny God the power to empart Grace upon who He wants in the way He wants.

Receiving Grace by means of sacrament doesn’t imply that you cannot receive Grace by additional means. You are excluding Grace in the form of Sacrament to prove a flawed notion that we receive Grace by faith alone.

I wouldn’t exclude either because God is the purveyor of Grace, not man. What I would say is that you receive God’s Grace, but you would receive it in full if you were receiving the Sacraments.

Grace is a means to be closer to God and it gives us the tools we need to do His will. The more we have, the better! Receiving Grace is not a “get into Heaven free card.” We must take the Grace given to us and share it with others.

Gob Bless,

HC

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Not according to the scriptures, and the Church. The sacraments were instituted by our Lord.

The Chruch embaces these and all the scritpures, but you evidently reject ones you don’t like.
John6:54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day
The Bible certainly does teach this…You choose to ignore it at your peril.

You and your church misunderstand what John 6:54 is talking about, Jesus Himself explains it in v. 63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
This is also brought out in Jn. 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. When we eat the flesh of Jesus we are eating His words. This is also brought out in 1Cor 2:12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Respectfully Richard,

You can’t say how I receive God’s Grace. You cannot deny God the power to empart Grace upon who He wants in the way He wants.

I can say how you receive grace because it tells me how it is dipensed in the Word of God.

Receiving Grace by means of sacrament doesn’t imply that you cannot receive Grace by additional means. You are excluding Grace in the form of Sacrament to prove a flawed notion that we receive Grace by faith alone.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Please tell me how this is flawed. I tell you nothing on my oun. I rely totally on the Word of God.

I wouldn’t exclude either because God is the purveyor of Grace, not man. What I would say is that you receive God’s Grace, but you would receive it in full if you were receiving the Sacraments.

Please don’t take offense at this because it is not meant offensively, but who cares what you think or for that matter what I think. I beleive what God’s word says.

Grace is a means to be closer to God and it gives us the tools we need to do His will. The more we have, the better! Receiving Grace is not a “get into Heaven free card.” We must take the Grace given to us and share it with others.

Gob Bless,

HC

Grace is the Gift of eternal life through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Any other definition is nonsense.