Seventh Day Adventists

[Protestant101]

Yes I agree, and I pray so. Keep in mind of what Jesus said ( paraphrasing ) “Who ever is against you is against me…”, so since WE ARE His One True Church, we will always be attacked, under the prodding of the evil one, because of disagreement, not liking, or the
misunderstanding of Jesus’ teachings and statements.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

LOL, you must be hiding under the rug or something - do you know how many denominations/religions make such claims?

If you were to read the whole booklet carefully, you would see that it is addressing all of christianity, as a whole, but it does give more pointed remarks/examples with the Catholic Church, for 2 pages, out of it’s 24 pages.

The paragraph you were referring to is pointing out, in particular, the similarities of praying to Mary for the dead, and of praying to a pagan God that was quite popular around the time that the Catholic doctrines about Mary were formed. You and others have already conceded the similarities in many Christian practices/traditions to pagan ideas of the past. I don’t have any problems at all with this booklet, unless you can present some tangible evidence yourself.

 

[Protestant101]

Well, if you are so “tired” just lie down and rest, or, start digging up your own evidence to “prove” me wrong.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, (name removed by moderator),

This is really an upgrade…

The idea that Maray, the Mother of God, is somehow being worshiped as God shows a complete misunderstanding of Mary’s role in God’s Plan for our salvation. Mary constantly points our focus toward Christ and this is where a proper understanding of Mary comes needs to begin.

Don’t lose heart, evasion and misdirection are the only forms of argumentation you will encounter.

Best wishes,

 

[Protestant101]

Hi, (name removed by moderator),

This is really an upgrade…

The idea that Maray, the Mother of God, is somehow being worshiped as God shows a complete misunderstanding of Mary’s role in God’s Plan for our salvation. Mary constantly points our focus toward Christ and this is where a proper understanding of Mary comes needs to begin.

Don’t lose heart, evasion and misdirection are the only forms of argumentation you will encounter.

Best wishes,

I did not say Mary was worshipped as God by Catholics today, or in place of God. I said that there were similarities between praying to Mary for the dead and the worship given to a pagan God at the time when Mary doctrines were first formed.

 

[greggy53]

LOL, you must be hiding under the rug or something - do you know how many denominations/religions make such claims?

If you were to read the whole booklet carefully, you would see that it is addressing all of christianity, as a whole, but it does give more pointed remarks/examples with the Catholic Church, for 2 pages, out of it’s 24 pages.

The paragraph you were referring to is pointing out, in particular, the similarities of praying to Mary for the dead, and of praying to a pagan God that was quite popular around the time that the Catholic doctrines about Mary were formed. You and others have already conceded the similarities in many Christian practices/traditions to pagan ideas of the past. I don’t have any problems at all with this booklet, unless you can present some tangible evidence yourself.

I don’t know about your booklet, but the article I quoted specically said that the Church in Rome did these things. What other Church coulf the author be talking about? I did present evidence from the article which said in essence that the Church in Rome made up the saints, and gave them the names of gagan gods. What is YOUR evidence that this is true.? Why don’t you ask your leaders to help you out?

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I did not say Mary was worshipped as God by Catholics today, or in place of God. I said that there were similarities between praying to Mary for the dead and the worship given to a pagan God at the time when Mary doctrines were first formed.

Hi P101,

It should not surprise you that Satan provides counterfeits to God’s Truths. Just because pagans and unbelievers do false “things” that are similar to God’s True “things” does not make those who follow God pagans.

God bless all!!!

 

[Javl]

LOL, you must be hiding under the rug or something - do you know how many denominations/religions make such claims?

If you were to read the whole booklet carefully, you would see that it is addressing all of christianity, as a whole, but it does give more pointed remarks/examples with the Catholic Church, for 2 pages, out of it’s 24 pages.

The paragraph you were referring to is pointing out, in particular, the similarities of praying to Mary for the dead, and of praying to a pagan God that was quite popular around the time that the Catholic doctrines about Mary were formed. You and others have already conceded the similarities in many Christian practices/traditions to pagan ideas of the past. I don’t have any problems at all with this booklet, unless you can present some tangible evidence yourself.

Can you please explain or show me where we pray to a pagan god? Also what pagan
practices do we use? As for praying to Mary, yes we do. We ask for her help to ask
her Son to grant our requests. As for praying for the dead, we are continuing what the Jews of old did, and many today do. Were they wrong in doing so? God ( Jesus ) never admonished them for this. But since you believe in soul sleep, you do not pray for the dead. Thank you and God Bless.

P.S. Where may I obtain a copy of this booklet?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Hi P101,

Thank you very much for this post of yours! Now we are really getting into the “meat” of our discussion and getting into the scriptures. I appreciate your reply! Your comments are exactaly what I want from you…a discussion based on the scriptures!!!

My Initial Comments:

While I have other questions about your post; I will start with something simple, regarding your reference to Genesis 14:18 Can you explain what your purpose in making this reference was?

I thought my purpose in referencing Gen. 14:18 was clear. The aposle Paul makes reference to Melchizedek in the book of Hebrews which you first cited. Paul also quotes Psalm 110 in the book of Hebrews that Jesus is a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. The rest of my post went on to explain what I believed that meant based on the book of Hebrews, Melchizedek’s High Priesthood referred to in Gen 14:18, The Lord’s Supper, and how that all fits into the plan of salvation. I know we will go deeper into this in this discussion, but I hope my explanation as to my purpose in making this reference is clear.

“Brought forth bread and wine” within this text certainly would indicate that it was to refresh Abram and his men, exhausted with the late battle and fatigues of the journey;

Well let’s take a look at the scriptures and see for what reason the bread and wine were brought forth.

***Gen. 14:17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley). ***(Abram returns after defeating his enemies and the King of Sodom comes out to meet him…no mention of being weary)

18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, (Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of God Most High brings out bread and wine…but no mention here that the reason was because Abram was weary from battle. But the reason is in this next verse)

***19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator of heaven and earth.

20 And blessed be God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything. ***

The purpose is clearly stated here that Melchizedek came out to bless Abram by pronouncing the blessing above in verses 19 and 20, not to feed weary soldiers.

There are two points made by Melchizedek which will recur again and again in covenants made by God with man.

1. God Most High is Creator of heaven and earth (verse 19). and;
2. God is The Deliverer (verse 20)

These two characteristics of God’s interactions with man in both the Old and New Covenants, are what define the relationship between God and those whom He saves and redeems.

For instance, in the Old Covenant when God gave the Law to Moses, notice that the characteristics of God as being Creator and Deliverer are pointed out in the sabbath commandment:

Ex. 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. God the Creator

Deut. 5:15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day. God the Deliverer. It is interesting that in the 10 Commandments in Deuteronomy, there is no mention of the creation in the sabbath command…only to delieverance.

In the New Covenant we find that Jesus, through whom all was created, is also the Deliverer…but not from the dominion of earthly kings, or enslavement to other men, but the deliverance from both sin, and from death…the ultimate deliverance of mankind.

Creator:

Col. 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

***2 Cor. 5:17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! ***

Deliverer:

2 Cor. 1:9Indeed, in our hearts we felt the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11as you help us by your prayers.

Col. 1:13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

but definitely not in the way of any kind of redemptive sacrifice, to make such a connection would be an idle conjecture, having no doctrinal or exegetical connection to the Last Supper, and the Catholic doctrines of Eucharist.:tiphat:

It was not me who made this connection to Melchizedek and Jesus our High Priest. It was Paul in the book of Hebrews. I hesitate to call the apostle Paul’s connection "idle conjecture, having no doctrian or exegetical connection to the Last Supper, and the Catholic doctrines of Eucharist…"

What do you think Paul means by teaching that Jesus is our High Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek?

God bless all!!!

 

[DavidMark]

Has your church maintained its watch on prophecies?

What is the explanation now for this prophecy? 456 BC + 2300 = 1844

Did you know certain Shí’ih Muslims were awaiting their year 1260 (which was our 1844)?

What if I told you William Miller was right and so were they?

What if Christ did not come down out of the sky over New England, but lived among us in Palestine, but the SDA went off on a tangent?

 

[Protestant101]

Has your church maintained its watch on prophecies?

What is the explanation now for this prophecy? 456 BC + 2300 = 1844

Did you know certain Shí’ih Muslims were awaiting their year 1260 (which was our 1844)?

What if I told you William Miller was right and so were they?

What if Christ did not come down out of the sky over New England, but lived among us in Palestine, but the SDA went off on a tangent?

Hey, David! If you told me that it would be nothing new to me. But thanks for trying.

 

[Protestant101]

Hi P101,

It was not me who made this connection to Melchizedek and Jesus our High Priest. It was Paul in the book of Hebrews. I hesitate to call the apostle Paul’s connection "idle conjecture, having no doctrian or exegetical connection to the Last Supper, and the Catholic doctrines of Eucharist…"

What do you think Paul means by teaching that Jesus is our High Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek?

God bless all!!!

Howdy Patrick; I know it wasn’t you who made that connection - I find myself, after reading your post, wondering how you can count as fact, something that isn’t.

With the text in Genesis, you made a special point of trying to connect it with the Catholic Eucharist doctrine, by “proving” that the men of the battle therein were not weary. If you were to look into how they did their battles back then; it would be unreasonable to assume they were not weary! Melchisideck did want to bless them; and this is one “tradition” that many Christian families still do today at mealtime. And this is quite true to the Biblical principle of the father being “the priest of the household.” There is absolutely nothing in this text to suggest the meaning and intent of the Catholic Eucharist doctrines, as taught by your Church. It was a regular meal with no transubstantiation of any kind even hinted at. Besides, if you try to use that text to say otherwise, then you have to also admit the Catholic Church does not follow the correct Biblical order of things with this subject - for she no longer serves “the wine” in her Eucharist. To say the Catholic Church has not changed on this count would not be true to history or to Biblical facts.

Your last question Patrick, is one that I will enjoy replying to much more in depth; but I am truly out of time for now, and must run. But that is a good point for us to discuss. And, as to the text in Genesis, I can bring it into sharper focus when I reply to that question.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, DavidMark,

Looks like 1844 was a popular year…

Has your church maintained its watch on prophecies?

What is the explanation now for this prophecy? 456 BC + 2300 = 1844

Did you know certain Shí’ih Muslims were awaiting their year 1260 (which was our 1844)?

What if I told you William Miller was right and so were they?

What if Christ did not come down out of the sky over New England, but lived among us in Palestine, but the SDA went off on a tangent?

What if I told you Miller was not only wrong once but twice? Considering that it was called the Great Disappointment - it sounds like you want to rename it as the Great Disillusionment…

And, what if Christ live in disguise - as opposed to announcing to all of the world that He Is Come!

What is the next fantasy on this topic?

God bless

Tom

 

[Protestant101]

Hi P101,

It should not surprise you that Satan provides counterfeits to God’s Truths. Just because pagans and unbelievers do false “things” that are similar to God’s True “things” does not make those who follow God pagans.

God bless all!!!

On this note; we can agree that Satan has his counterfeits. But it does not always follow that when Christians do the same things as pagans, that they are not guilty of doing something they shouldn’t be. I will touch base with that thought more than once in this discussion. To show a real life example of how can can speak to us, no matter what we do or don’t do, I wanted to post this link to a true story that happened with me. Gospel From A Dumpster I am sure conjures up all kinds of images, yet it shows that God can get through to us no matter how far away from a church or a priest or all their doctrines we may be. It is my sincere hope that people reading this thread will atleast go away with the blessed assurance that God can and does, and will speak to both Roman Catholics and Protestants, (and maybe even a few Adventists ) about His love, and His will for us. And that we should never fall into the trap of “limiting the Holy One of Israel” to our pet doctrines, and our forms and traditions, as good as some of these might be. The points of the gospel that only God knows we need in our own personal circumstance is too often clouded with do’s and don’ts. Christ will minister from His sanctuary as He sees fit, and “after the order of Melchisideck.”

 

[DavidMark]

What is the next fantasy on this topic?
God bless
Tom

You know the prophecy is ancient and immutable. The fantasy is explaining it away
as somethig other than what it was. God blesses more than we want to know!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

On this note; we can agree that Satan has his counterfeits. But it does not always follow that when Christians do the same things as pagans, that they are not guilty of doing something they shouldn’t be. I will touch base with that thought more than once in this discussion.

Hi P101!

Stay with me here brother! I did not say that when Christians do the same things as pagans that they are not guilty of something…they may very well be, and most likely are.

Look again at what I said and please try not misrepresent what I say, because what I said is completely different from what you assert above. Thanks!

I said: “Just because pagans and unbelievers do false “things” that are similar to God’s True “things” does not make those who follow God pagans.”

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Howdy Patrick; I know it wasn’t you who made that connection - I find myself, after reading your post, wondering how you can count as fact, something that isn’t.

With the text in Genesis, you made a special point of trying to connect it with the Catholic Eucharist doctrine, by “proving” that the men of the battle therein were not weary. If you were to look into how they did their battles back then; it would be unreasonable to assume they were not weary! Melchisideck did want to bless them; and this is one “tradition” that many Christian families still do today at mealtime. And this is quite true to the Biblical principle of the father being “the priest of the household.” There is absolutely nothing in this text to suggest the meaning and intent of the Catholic Eucharist doctrines, as taught by your Church. It was a regular meal with no transubstantiation of any kind even hinted at. Besides, if you try to use that text to say otherwise, then you have to also admit the Catholic Church does not follow the correct Biblical order of things with this subject - for she no longer serves “the wine” in her Eucharist. To say the Catholic Church has not changed on this count would not be true to history or to Biblical facts.

Your last question Patrick, is one that I will enjoy replying to much more in depth; but I am truly out of time for now, and must run. But that is a good point for us to discuss. And, as to the text in Genesis, I can bring it into sharper focus when I reply to that question.

Hi P101,

I’m sure the soldiers were weary from battle, but that is not the reason the scriptures provide as to why Melchizedek came out to them. The scpriptures in Genesis 14 are clear that He came out to bless Abram and God.

Also, I never said it was a Eucharistic meal, but that it is indeed related to the Eucharist and Jesus’ ministry as our High Priest as a Priest forever in the order of Melchizedek. I said we will look more at this in our discussion. But yes, the bloodless sacrifice of Melchizedek, The Passoer, The Lord’s Supper, The Crucifixion, The Eucharist, and Jesus as our High Priest are indeed related. Paul makes this clear in the book of Hebrews as well as in some of his other letters to the Church.

The text in Genesis must be looked at from Paul’s writings and the Gospels.

But I’m still waiting to hear your thoughts on what Paul means regarding Jesus being a priest in the order of Melchizedek.

And so we don’t get bogged down, I will wait for your thoughts on that, as well the scriptural support for your views that the father of the house is the priest who offers blessings for meals at meal time. And correct me if I’m wrong, but are you asserting that the order of the priesthood of Melchizedek is to offer grace before meals?

You may be absolutely correct in what you are saying and I might be absolutely incorrect in what I’m saying. But please provide the scriptures that support your views, as I have provided lots of scriptures to support my views in this discussion. I need scriputres from you so we can look at them and determine what the scriptures do indeed teach!

Thanks! I still very much look forward to your thoughts on this discussion of Jesus as our High Priest, Hebrews, etc.

Oh and by the way, The Catholic Church does indeed offer the Precious Blood of Christ in the species of wine. I have recevied His Precious Blood from the Cup during communion on a regular basis since I became Catholic.

God bless all!!!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, DavidMark,

While there is a real art to being cryptic, the essece of success lies in effective communications. I have no idea what your response is intended to mean.

You know the prophecy is ancient and immutable. The fantasy is explaining it away
as somethig other than what it was. God blesses more than we want to know!

Which ancient and immutable prophecy are to talking about? If not Miller and his false predictions, then what?

As far as I can tell, Miller was a financially successful individual who had time on his hands and became ‘self-taught’ in the Bible. Then he went from being a student to teaching his own doctrine - and having stubbed his toe on his first prediction, learned nothing and made a second in which he was totally wrong, again. Miller, while not impressive as a quick study, did have a remarkable stubborn streak. Truly, what amazes me about him is that he stopped at two failed prophicies as to the Second Coming. So, what do you mean by “explaining it (?) away”?

And, yes, God does bless us more then want or know, but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

As I appreciate the subject, Miller and his false statements set the stage for E.G.White and her false statements. And while we can trace the error further back then Miller, it then becomes rather complex. Ultimately, if you read your own Bible, you will see that Christ - True God and True Man, founded His Chruch on Peter, gave Peter authority (the Keys) and then after Christ’s Resurrection, re-confirmed Peter as the leader by telling Peter to feed Christ’s lambs and sheep. Christ did not return and tell Miller to do this, and Christ did not tell White to do this. And, these are just historical facts.

God bless

 

[Protestant101]

Hi P101!

Stay with me here brother! I did not say that when Christians do the same things as pagans that they are not guilty of something…they may very well be, and most likely are.

Look again at what I said and please try not misrepresent what I say, because what I said is completely different from what you assert above. Thanks!

I said: “Just because pagans and unbelievers do false “things” that are similar to God’s True “things” does not make those who follow God pagans.”

God bless all!!!

I really don’t understand how I “misrepresented” you; perhaps “misunderstood” would be a better choice of words - but that’s a bit strong to accuse me of misrepresenting. In fact; I don’t even understand what the difference is that you are trying to make between what I said and what you said. I don’t see any difference at all; just slightly different wording.

I see you missed commenting on the part of my post I was looking forward to hearing what you would say. O well; when I come back; I will try to say a little on “the order of Melchisideck.”

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I wanted to post this link to a true story that happened with me. Gospel From A Dumpster

Hi P101,

While this is a diversion off of the path of discussion we’ve been working on lately, I would just like to share something interesting that happend today.

I went to Mass at noon, as I usually do when I have the opportunity. I like to get there a little early and pray and reflect. I pray for many things each day, and one of those many things I pray for each day is your health, safety, success, and eternal life. During Mass I am impressed with many things, and one of those things today by which I felt impressed by God was to come back and read the link you posted above (I really had not planned to read it because I have so many things to read).

I just finished reading it and found it to be a good story!

I join with you in praying "O Lord, thank you for coming to look for us, long before we started to search for you. use us/me as your restoring presence today, amongst the various people You have set before us/me, in our life today. Help us to search for and to find the “prodigals” and to value them the way You would."

Jesus’ presence in The Holy Eucharist is the most blessed sacrament God provides to mankind. And as we receive Jesus in the Eucharist, He gives us the grace to go and be a presence in the world to do His will as you describe in your story. Jesus is present among us in so many ways…where two or three are gathered together in His Name…where we encounter the “least of these my brethern”…where we visit and care for the sick and dying…where we defend the life of those innocents unable to defend themselves…where we go in love and care to those who are in prison, destitue, naked…where there are those in need who become our neighbor at that very moment of their greatest need even if we have never seen them before…where we do unto each other as we would have them do unto us…and where we love each other as Jesus loves us.

Your story was a diversion from our topic of conversation, but what a pleasant and nice diversion it was!!!

Thank you!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I really don’t understand how I “misrepresented” you; perhaps “misunderstood” would be a better choice of words - but that’s a bit strong to accuse me of misrepresenting. In fact; I don’t even understand what the difference is that you are trying to make between what I said and what you said. I don’t see any difference at all; just slightly different wording.

I see you missed commenting on the part of my post I was looking forward to hearing what you would say. O well; when I come back; I will try to say a little on “the order of Melchisideck.”

LOL…I was resonding to that “part” of your post (I think, if your link is what you were refering to) while you were posting this

God bless you!!!