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Protestant101
Guest
LOL, well, actually it wasn’t a “diversion” but I am too short on time to say much more. All in good time.
- Status
D
DavidMark
Guest
Thank you for responding. I will try to be clear. Miler did not stub his toe. It’s just that the Advent of Christ was not celestial, that is, down from the sky, and it was not in New England. But the times were right. No one knew the Hour. But the year could be determined. That was what he succeeded in drwing attention to. And 1844 equalled 1260 AH, in which different prophecies from a Muslim dtradtion pointed to the same year.
No sound mind can discount this. It is crucial to resolving the disputes that make jihad.
Code:
“Creation” in 6 “days” = 6,000 years, Ps. 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8,12 months x 30days = 360 day Biblical “year”
7“times” or “years” x 360 = 2520 “days”/actual years
Lev. 26:28, Dan. 4:23
**2520 ÷ 2 = 1260 actual years **
Rev. 11:2, 3, 9 & 11, 12:6 & 14, 13:5
3½ “times” = 42 “months” **
Dan. 9:24, Matt. 18:21 **
70 x 7 = 490
7 X 70 = 490
457 B.C. + 490 = 33 A.D./C.E. The Crucifixion
456 B.C.E. + 2300 = 1844 C.E.
260 A.H. + 1000 lunar years = 1260 A.H Qur’án 32:4
1260 A.H. = 1844C.E.
Bábí Dispensation begins 1844C.E. = 1 Bahá’í Era
If you have questions about any part of this, let’s discuss.
It is important because Christ has returned at a time you didn’t expect…
well, the SDA church DID expect it, but then gave up on it.
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greggy53
Guest
Looks like a lot elaborate nonsense to me.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, DavidMark,
Truly incredible.
In my opinion there are at least four major errors with your presentation that I found. The list is certainly invited to join in on this.
1.) The Son of Man has said His Second Coming will be known to all - He is not coming back in disguise or in hiding.
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:1-34, Mark 13:1-30, Luke 21:5-32
2.) Christ said He did not know when the end would be - and, it is plain foolishness (but, that fact has yet to stop anyone) trying to figure out when it is to be. Mark 13:32
3.) Why do you think the Millerites call this prediction failure of the Second Coming the Great Disappointment? My understanding is that these people had truly believed Miller the first time he predicted the end - and were prepared by having sold their property and made preparations for their departure…which did not happen. The second failed prediction lead to even more disillusionment with Miller (who at this point decides to stop issuing predictions).
I think at least one correct answer as to why this time is called the Great Disappointment is that while these individuals were disappointed that Christ did not come as they expected, they were also disappointed in themselves for being so foolish. Now, foolishness did not end in 1844 - apparently, specific dates about the end are no longer in vogue - and this may represent the biggest change.
You know, the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans were famous for their calculations. The evidence for the validity of their work is seen in the structures they left behind. Somewhere along the line, each of them had to come up with a definition of what is straight, how to measure angles and where to place the building once built so it would continue to stand. As I appreciate the situation, there have been many difficulties with actually confirming exact dates in the Old Testament. We can get a range for dates (e.g., “…early in the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, the prophet Hananiah …”) - but getting an exact date with our calandar is simply not possible. This carries on today with most of us not knowing the exact year Christ was born. Our calander is based on Christ being born in 1AD - but, maybe 6BC or 4AD have some possible validity. If you do not have the right basis for computing a formula, you will get the wrong number.
So, as I see it, here is Miller with two failed predictions to his credit - but, a stubborn streak that won’t allow him to throw up his hands saying, “There are some things we are not to know!” Nope, he plods along with the same flawed set of ideas that he passes off ot E.G.White. Now, White is not nearly as foolish as Miller - and has seen what happens when exact dates are given out…and obviously proven false. So, this is something that can and will be avoided. Making the Second Coming a historic event (or would that be ‘Caming’ as in the past tense of come) that happened away from New England only requires one element to be believed: proof.
Yes, that is the only thing that stands in the way of a critical view of your ideas and math and joyous acceptance of the idea that Christ has come and is hiding out in the Middle East. Now, the proof would have to be that Christ was lying when He said He did not know the date and that we (like D. Brown ) can crack the code!
Personally, I am looking forward to seeing your proof.
God bless
Truly incredible.
In my opinion there are at least four major errors with your presentation that I found. The list is certainly invited to join in on this.
1.) The Son of Man has said His Second Coming will be known to all - He is not coming back in disguise or in hiding.
For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:1-34, Mark 13:1-30, Luke 21:5-32
2.) Christ said He did not know when the end would be - and, it is plain foolishness (but, that fact has yet to stop anyone) trying to figure out when it is to be. Mark 13:32
3.) Why do you think the Millerites call this prediction failure of the Second Coming the Great Disappointment? My understanding is that these people had truly believed Miller the first time he predicted the end - and were prepared by having sold their property and made preparations for their departure…which did not happen. The second failed prediction lead to even more disillusionment with Miller (who at this point decides to stop issuing predictions).
I think at least one correct answer as to why this time is called the Great Disappointment is that while these individuals were disappointed that Christ did not come as they expected, they were also disappointed in themselves for being so foolish. Now, foolishness did not end in 1844 - apparently, specific dates about the end are no longer in vogue - and this may represent the biggest change.
4.) The ability to present an exact date is simply wishful thinking. We can do a lot with math - build pyramids, buildings, aquducts and roads - we can also delude ourselves and wind up in a solid state of denial.
You know, the ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans were famous for their calculations. The evidence for the validity of their work is seen in the structures they left behind. Somewhere along the line, each of them had to come up with a definition of what is straight, how to measure angles and where to place the building once built so it would continue to stand. As I appreciate the situation, there have been many difficulties with actually confirming exact dates in the Old Testament. We can get a range for dates (e.g., “…early in the reign of Zedekiah king of Judah, the prophet Hananiah …”) - but getting an exact date with our calandar is simply not possible. This carries on today with most of us not knowing the exact year Christ was born. Our calander is based on Christ being born in 1AD - but, maybe 6BC or 4AD have some possible validity. If you do not have the right basis for computing a formula, you will get the wrong number.
So, as I see it, here is Miller with two failed predictions to his credit - but, a stubborn streak that won’t allow him to throw up his hands saying, “There are some things we are not to know!” Nope, he plods along with the same flawed set of ideas that he passes off ot E.G.White. Now, White is not nearly as foolish as Miller - and has seen what happens when exact dates are given out…and obviously proven false. So, this is something that can and will be avoided. Making the Second Coming a historic event (or would that be ‘Caming’ as in the past tense of come) that happened away from New England only requires one element to be believed: proof.
Yes, that is the only thing that stands in the way of a critical view of your ideas and math and joyous acceptance of the idea that Christ has come and is hiding out in the Middle East. Now, the proof would have to be that Christ was lying when He said He did not know the date and that we (like D. Brown ) can crack the code!
Personally, I am looking forward to seeing your proof.
God bless
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi P101,LOL, well, actually it wasn’t a “diversion” but I am too short on time to say much more. All in good time.
Yes, I understand how it was not a diversion
Jesus is present to us and this world in many different ways. His presence among us is experienced in many ways both when we are alone at times and when we are together with others.That is truth, and your link did a nice job of pointing that out, and I turely am grateful to you for posting it, and that God impressed me to read it yesterday!!!
All I ask you to consider is His presence also in The Lord’s Supper as He taught in the scriptures and the command He gave at The Last Supper when He institued this sacrament for His Church.
You once asked me what I meant when I said that I found the fullness and completeness of the Gospel in The Catholic Church. This blessing of His presence given to us in this sacrament, along with all of those other moments of His presence in our lives which you have beautifully described and shared on these forums, is what I mean when I talk about the fullness and completeness of the Gospel which I found in The Catholic Church.
God bless you!!!
p.s. I do still look forward to your thoughts on Jesus, Melchizedek, and Paul’s comparison of them!
God bless all!!!
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Patrick,
Great post!
Now, let me see if I have this straight … are you saying that the God Who made everything from nothing, created man in His Own Image, took on Flesh through the Power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary and came into the world as a helpless Baby, worked numerous miracles so as to demonstrate that He could make the blind see, heal the lepars, raise the dead , the gospel is preached to the poor … and …
God bless
Great post!
Now, let me see if I have this straight … are you saying that the God Who made everything from nothing, created man in His Own Image, took on Flesh through the Power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary and came into the world as a helpless Baby, worked numerous miracles so as to demonstrate that He could make the blind see, heal the lepars, raise the dead , the gospel is preached to the poor … and …
…and this same All Powerful God is able to hide Himself under the appearance of Bread and Wine! You know, we have an Awesome and Most Wonderful God!Hi P101,
Yes, I understand how it was not a diversion
That is truth, and your link did a nice job of pointing that out, and I turely am grateful to you for posting it, and that God impressed me to read it yesterday!!!
All I ask you to consider is His presence also in The Lord’s Supper as He taught in the scriptures and the command He gave at The Last Supper when He institued this sacrament for His Church.
You once asked me what I meant when I said that I found the fullness and completeness of the Gospel in The Catholic Church. This blessing of His presence given to us in this sacrament, along with all of those other moments of His presence in our lives which you have beautifully described and shared on these forums, is what I mean when I talk about the fullness and completeness of the Gospel which I found in The Catholic Church.
God bless you!!!
p.s. I do still look forward to your thoughts on Jesus, Melchizedek, and Paul’s comparison of them!
God bless all!!!
God bless
P
Protestant101
Guest
LOL, I forgot to mention that the link we have been talking about is not the exact thing I was hoping to see you comment on. You missed it entirely! But that’s OK. I will bring it up in my next post…Hi P101,
Yes, I understand how it was not a diversion
That is truth, and your link did a nice job of pointing that out, and I turely am grateful to you for posting it, and that God impressed me to read it yesterday!!!
All I ask you to consider is His presence also in The Lord’s Supper as He taught in the scriptures and the command He gave at The Last Supper when He institued this sacrament for His Church.
You once asked me what I meant when I said that I found the fullness and completeness of the Gospel in The Catholic Church. This blessing of His presence given to us in this sacrament, along with all of those other moments of His presence in our lives which you have beautifully described and shared on these forums, is what I mean when I talk about the fullness and completeness of the Gospel which I found in The Catholic Church.
God bless you!!!
p.s. I do still look forward to your thoughts on Jesus, Melchizedek, and Paul’s comparison of them!
God bless all!!!
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
LOL…Ok…Let’s just meet at the mall and discuss this over a pizza…I think that would be easier for us to keep in snyc:thumbsup: Have a great weekend!LOL, I forgot to mention that the link we have been talking about is not the exact thing I was hoping to see you comment on. You missed it entirely! But that’s OK. I will bring it up in my next post…
God bless all!!!
P
Protestant101
Guest
I won’t be back till Tuesday or Wednesday; but will look forward to that “pizza.”
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi Tom,Hi, Patrick,
Great post!
Now, let me see if I have this straight … are you saying that the God Who made everything from nothing, created man in His Own Image, took on Flesh through the Power of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary and came into the world as a helpless Baby, worked numerous miracles so as to demonstrate that He could make the blind see, heal the lepars, raise the dead , the gospel is preached to the poor … and …
…and this same All Powerful God is able to hide Himself under the appearance of Bread and Wine! You know, we have an Awesome and Most Wonderful God!
God bless
Yes that is exactly what I’m saying…but you just said it much better!!!
Have a great weekend my friend!
God bless all!!!
D
DavidMark
Guest
One thing I’ve noticed from decades of close study is that the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh were never timid or ‘hiding out’. They were isolated in prison though, and came out of prison with results like Joseph’s in Egypt.Hi, DavidMark,
Truly incredible. Not to us.
In my opinion there are at least four major errors with your presentation that I found… Personally, I am looking forward to seeing your proof.
God bless
When a crazy Bábí tried to shoot the Shah, and didn’t even put the right caliber shot in the gun, the news spread reapidly, and Bahá’u’lláh rode directly to the kings camp t inquire after him. He was the incarnation of courage, as well as justice and wisdom.
When the sme Shah pressed the Ottoman Sultan (who was also the Caliph of Islam) to banish Bahá’u’lláh to the fortress of Akko, in Palestine, it was they who were trying to hide an innocent Man. But by doing so, published in the East and West. Remember, the return of the Jews was to be happening at the same time. Since they are back, who else merits our investigation, and who else even made the claim?
Hearken unto the Voice of this benevolent Counsellor, calling aloud, unveiled and manifest, before the faces of kings and their subjects, and summon the people of the world, one and all, unto Him Who is the Lord of Eternity. This is the Word from Whose horizon the day-star of unfailing grace shineth resplendent.(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 43)
- You begin by making the old assumption based on Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Eyes did see and do see and will see. But the blind have no share, who do not ask for healing.
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DavidMark
Guest
- True, no one knew the Hour. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not(Luke12:40) But the year could be determined. This is not the only prophecy pointing to 1844.
**For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus – may peace be upon Him – till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God’s Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel.
And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God – may the blessings of God be upon Him – till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus – peace be upon Him – wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muhammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him.
And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayan (the Book of the Báb) appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur’án; the beginning of which was when two hours and eleven minutes had passed on the eve of the fifth of Jamadiyu’l-Avval, 1260 A.H…**23 May 1844](Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 107)
Notice the year in Islam was 1260, (which is 1260 “days” or years, and is the same as 3½ “times” or 42 “months” mentioned in Daniel 12:7, Rev. 11:2, 3, 9 & 11, 12:6 & 14, 13:5
mentioned in Revelation. Why would God teach something for no purpose, and not test for what He taught?
D
DavidMark
Guest
- You asked: Why do you think the Millerites call this prediction failure of the Second Coming The Great Disappointment?
In 1912, His Son 'Abdu’l-Baha, at the age of 69, travelled across the US for nine months.
A record of those talks is here: reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PUP/
Matthew 24:27 **For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.**This was the first Revelation in which the telegraph, radio, television, and the internet made their appearance.
O SON OF MAN! Deny not My servant should he ask anything from thee, for his face is My face; be then abashed before Me. (Baha’u’llah, AHW #30)
D
DavidMark
Guest
- Wishful thinking is on the part of those who seek to deny. They neglect Christ’s criteria and signs for testing the Spirits.
**Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. **(Matthew 7:16-20) [Notice Jesus repeats that you SHALL know them by this test.]
So what are the ‘fruits of the spirit’? They are so well-documented, I let you see for yourselves. Nevertheless, when Perfection appears, it will be opposed, as always, and why is that? Ask the Jews, who have been brought back to protect the Land like no one else can or would.
**The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say: verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul. **(Tablet to the Christians, Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 11) reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-3.html
**This teaching is of the Spirit, in it is no precept which is not of the Divine Spirit. **
(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 85)
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SOSOLAK
Guest
Plummel, bless you for your conviction . Your point in keeping sabbath is to me makes a lot of sense. I have read few articles in the forum reading sabbath issue and can sum up things this order based on my little knowledge of the scripture and comments made by others in the forum;
- Sabbath is a day santified as a holy day by GOD himself in the begining(end) with Adam and Eve.
2)To moses and the children of Isreal GOD ask them to keep the sabbath holy. Exodus we read that on the ten commandment(REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY TO KEEP IT HOLY).
3)Again thru the journey of the children of Isreal in the wilderness God ask remind them to respect sabbath by not providing Manna on the sabbathday. There are biblical texts that others can support me for proof. - In the book of Isaih(correct me if am wrong) we find that we will worhisp God on sabbath from new moon to another------for eternity)in heaven. For those that are saved when Jesus comes in his second comming.
5)Then in the new Testament, i find from reading through the forum that Jesus went to church on sabbath(As his custom was he went to the synagogue on sabbath).
6). Again Jesus was saying in the new Tastment" I come not to destroy the law but to fulfil.This to me is the 10 commandment( keeping the sabbath is one of them).
Iam not a theologian , i am not interested with all your arguments on all verses in the bible to justify yourself. I am convience with simple quote like what Phummel said.
Also those simple evedience should give me enough trust and hope that SABBATH is a TRUE DAY OF WORSHIP .
J
Javl
Guest
Sorry to rehash the same old subject, but can you tell me what day of the week the Sabbath is? Thank you.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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greggy53
Guest
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DavidMark
Guest
Could someone explain to me the “nonsense” of Two Witnesses in Revelation 11,
who have the power to shut off “rain” for 3½ days like Elijah, and turn rivers to blood like Moses, are “killed” and resurrected and cause fear in those who behold them?
So Israel *could *enjoy a three-day week-end, for Muslims Friday is Jomeh, for Jews and Adventists Saturday is Shabbat, and Sunday is for the other Christians…or
all four seasons are holy, a “year of Sundays”!
who have the power to shut off “rain” for 3½ days like Elijah, and turn rivers to blood like Moses, are “killed” and resurrected and cause fear in those who behold them?
So Israel *could *enjoy a three-day week-end, for Muslims Friday is Jomeh, for Jews and Adventists Saturday is Shabbat, and Sunday is for the other Christians…or
all four seasons are holy, a “year of Sundays”!
J
Javl
Guest
Why on a Saturday? Sabbath in Hebrew means rest, the seventh day is a rest day. SinceThat would be Saturday…The day named after the pagan God Saturn.
the days were not named when God created, any day of our week could be the Sabbath.
He could have started creation on a Wednesday and finished seven days later. It was only after Julius Caesar set up his calendar did the days of the week start on a Sunday. And each day was named after, and to honor, a pagan god.
The Christian Sabbath is on a Sunday ( Sun god ) to honor Jesus ( God ) and to celebrate
His resurrection from the dead. This started with the original Christians ( Jews ), who all
gathered for the agape on a Sunday.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
G
greggy53
Guest
I was being sarcastic. The SDA claim that those who worship on Sunday worship the pagan god of the Sun. If we used their logic (of course we do not) then we could accuse those that worship on Saturday of worshiping the pagan god Saturn. We worship on Sunday because our Lord rose from the dead on Sunday. Sunday is the first day of the Week. It was also the first day of creation. Jesus made the world anew when he rose on the first day of the week…A new creation. This has been Christian teaching since at least the 2nd century. Unfortunately the SDA have been brainwashed into thinking that all of the true Christian history has been re-written or suppressed.Why on a Saturday? Sabbath in Hebrew means rest, the seventh day is a rest day. Since
the days were not named when God created, any day of our week could be the Sabbath.
He could have started creation on a Wednesday and finished seven days later. It was only after Julius Caesar set up his calendar did the days of the week start on a Sunday. And each day was named after, and to honor, a pagan god.
The Christian Sabbath is on a Sunday ( Sun god ) to honor Jesus ( God ) and to celebrate
His resurrection from the dead. This started with the original Christians ( Jews ), who all
gathered for the agape on a Sunday.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
- Status