Seventh-day Sabbath Questions And Answers

[Michael_Howard]

The first part of the article deals with the CHURCH making a decision as to what laws the gentiles should keep and the CHURCH with Peter as head of the council made the decision true or false? We’ll just take this in little bits…

 

[Protestant101]

Michael

You are not a mind reader, so please don’t try pretending to be with all your “insights” about some man in Canada you have never met.

I have asked you already to start something specific with me, in systematically looking at the points you cut and pasted above. Why won’t you reply to that?

I am glad you posted that link as it proves my point you are going to anti-Adventist websites, instead of Catholic sources for your responses here.

You might also want to consider that this site you have quoted so trustingly, is not supportive of very many Catholic doctrines either. If you want to call all their many scripture quotes Catholic truth, then OK; but that just opens up another whole can of worms. People misquote scripture all the time.

I will be waiting for your answer re the “moral commandments.” I am here to learn what Catholics believe; and yes, to try and debate some of it. You can, of course, quote from where you want to, but I will be more responsive to any official Catholic rebuttals you can supply.

 

[Michael_Howard]

The sabbath was a ceremonial law and we know from the gospel that ceremonial laws have expired. The moral laws which Jesus reiterated over and over deal with the conscience. Now, take a shot at my question above please…

 

[Michael_Howard]

Michael

You are not a mind reader, so please don’t try pretending to be with all your “insights” about some man in Canada you have never met.

I have asked you already to start something specific with me, in systematically looking at the points you cut and pasted above. Why won’t you reply to that?

I am glad you posted that link as it proves my point you are going to anti-Adventist websites, instead of Catholic sources for your responses here.

You might also want to consider that this site you have quoted so trustingly, is not supportive of very many Catholic doctrines either. If you want to call all their many scripture quotes Catholic truth, then OK; but that just opens up another whole can of worms. People misquote scripture all the time.

I will be waiting for your answer re the “moral commandments.” I am here to learn what Catholics believe; and yes, to try and debate some of it. You can, of course, quote from where you want to, but I will be more responsive to any official Catholic rebuttals you can supply.

I am quite familiar with this site and what thse folks believe, I have been around SDA and ex SDA for years and have several good friends who were hardcore militant SDA and have been part of the exodus of people leaving that church. The issue we are talking about is the sabbath of which these folks are an excellent resource.

 

[Michael_Howard]

I find it really odd that a few Catholics claim such credence to this type of website and information, when they keep saying that if it isn’t official Catholic materials, then we should not believe it. How can you quote such non-Catholic “evidence” and call it “truth?”

The ex-SDA’s are the very best resource in my opinion for taking on the sabbath issue because they feel so passionately about it and have devoted much time and study to the issue primarily to keep others from falling victim to these doctrines of the sabbath.

Yes, catholics should be discerning when going to the website, but I believe on this issue they have the upperhand and that’s why most SDA’s will not look at the article*.*

 

[Maria1212]

I am quite familiar with this site and what thse folks believe, I have been around SDA and ex SDA for years and have several good friends who were hardcore militant SDA and have been part of the exodus of people leaving that church. The issue we are talking about is the sabbath of which these folks are an excellent resource.

Hi Michael,

I agree with you that the name of a site the articles you posted from, does not mean the content of the articles are automatically invalid!

It is certainly valid to look at all sides of the argument, which you have helped do!! Moreover, you hit the nail on the head. I think sometimes Adventists do not understand the fullfillment of the Covenant that we see in the New Testament. We are no longer bound to Mosiac Law. Yet, we still observe the moral aspect of the sabbath commandment by worshipping on Sunday.

It is sad that some people are so judgemental about the literal time frame we choose to worship during.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

I wonder if the following statistic is true.

"During the July 2005 SDA General Conference, Bert Haloviak, director of Archives and Statistics for the Adventist world church, made the following statement:…nearly 1.5 million left membership during the time period 2000 to 2005. The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave. That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session in 2000."

Has anyone heard of this before? I remember reading their was a very high rate of adult converts leaving the Adventist Church but did not realize it was this high.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

Maria

I am disappointed to see that you call me judgmental because of my understanding of the Sabbath question at hand.

The Bible clearly states that you are wrong in calling the Sabbath “Mosaic Law.” This is what the Bible calls it:

Exodus 20:10 calls it “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

NOT OF MOSES!!!

Exo 20:10 But **the seventh day **is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

How can you label someone as “judgmental” just for quoting the Bible, and briefly stating their understanding of it?

 

[Michael_Howard]

Hi Michael,

I agree with you that the name of a site the articles you posted from, does not mean the content of the articles are automatically invalid!

It is certainly valid to look at all sides of the argument, which you have helped do!! Moreover, you hit the nail on the head. I think sometimes Adventists do not understand the fullfillment of the Covenant that we see in the New Testament. We are no longer bound to Mosiac Law. Yet, we still observe the moral aspect of the sabbath commandment by worshipping on Sunday.

It is sad that some people are so judgemental about the literal time frame we choose to worship during.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Thanks Maria. We see Jesus in the gospel really shaking things up and making it a nightmare for the religeous leaders, purposely contradicting sabbath ordinance, allowing a prostitute to wash his feet and so on. Why? So show them the rotteness of their hearts and minds, to show them that where the law had failed, grace would triumph, by HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!! The old creation was passing and on the Sunday of His resurrection a new creation was brought forth. Jesus lay in the tomb on the Sabbath but on the first day he rose from the dead, what is more significant in the life of the church? I’ll take the day of His resurrection.

 

[Maria1212]

Here were the other statistics I mentioned earlier.

Seventh-day Adventist Attrition Rate

Seventh-day Adventism has the second highest percentage of people that are born into the denomination who convert out, second only to the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Jehovah’s Witnesses
32%
Seventh-day Adventist 27%
Buddhist 23%
Non-denominational 2%

Source: The Graduate Center of the City University of New York (CUNY) 2001 American Religious Identification Survey.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Maria

I am disappointed to see that you call me judgmental because of my understanding of the Sabbath question at hand.

The Bible clearly states that you are wrong in calling the Sabbath “Mosaic Law.” This is what the Bible calls it:

Exodus 20:10 calls it “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

NOT OF MOSES!!!

How can you label someone as “judgmental” just for quoting the Bible, and briefly stating their understanding of it?

Well you should also be doing these things or you may be stoned:

It was to be kept from sunset to sunset (Lev. 23:32)
-No burden was to be carried (Jer. 17:21)
-No fire kindled (Ex. 35:3)
-No Cooking done (Ex. 16:23)
-The penalty for doing any of these things during the Sabbath was DEATH (Numbers 15).

Your only sharing part of the picture friend…

 

[Protestant101]

The ex-SDA’s are the very best resource in my opinion for taking on the sabbath issue because they feel so passionately about it and have devoted much time and study to the issue primarily to keep others from falling victim to these doctrines of the sabbath.

Yes, catholics should be discerning when going to the website, but I believe on this issue they have the upperhand and that’s why most SDA’s will not look at the article*.*

Your characterizations here of “most SDAs” is very typical anti-Adventist mantra, but as usual with such tailspinning falsehoods, one is left scratching the dust of error and malice, under the guise of truth. Would you publicly renounce your vote of confidence in this web site as a source of truth; if I could show you one thing they say about the Sabbath that is false? I doubt that you would by what you are saying here.

When you give some detailed references to prove your parenthetical comment re “moral law,” then I will be glad to address your question about the gospel going to the Gentiles; something which you appear to be sadly lacking, in Biblical basis for.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Maria

I am disappointed to see that you call me judgmental because of my understanding of the Sabbath question at hand.

The Bible clearly states that you are wrong in calling the Sabbath “Mosaic Law.” This is what the Bible calls it:

Exodus 20:10 calls it “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

NOT OF MOSES!!!

How can you label someone as “judgmental” just for quoting the Bible, and briefly stating their understanding of it?

The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:
The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says
*“The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.” *
Nehemiah 9:13-14 says: "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."

In the Genesis account it was God alone who rested and the creation account gives no credance to Adam and Eve following the sabbath or can you show me otherwise?

 

[Maria1212]

Maria

I am disappointed to see that you call me judgmental because of my understanding of the Sabbath question at hand.

The Bible clearly states that you are wrong in calling the Sabbath “Mosaic Law.” This is what the Bible calls it:

Exodus 20:10 calls it “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.”

NOT OF MOSES!!!

How can you label someone as “judgmental” just for quoting the Bible, and briefly stating their understanding of it?

Hello,

I was not personally calling you judgemental. I have found numerous Adventists to be very judgemental and arrogant regarding this. Even if someone believes that the Old Testament Judaic laws are binding, why do they care that I go to Church on Sunday??

I welcome hearing your interpretation of Scripture. However, I am not going to get involved in flinging Scripture passages back and forth. As a Catholic, I believe all of Scripture is true. I also follow the oral teachings and examples of the Apostles and early Church Fathers. Since you do not, you will not agree with my explanation on how Sunday fulfills the moral aspect of the Lord`s commandment.

Moreover, as a Catholic, when I read the Bible, I read it as a whole, rather than taking some passages in isolation. Since you may read the Bible in a different way, our interpretations would be different.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

I wonder if the following statistic is true.

“During the July 2005 SDA General Conference, Bert Haloviak, director of Archives and Statistics for the Adventist world church, made the following statement:…nearly 1.5 million left membership during the time period 2000 to 2005. The bottom line for this quinquennium is that for every 100 accessions, more than 35 others decided to leave. That total is considerably more than the 24 subtracted for every 100 added as reported at our last session in 2000.”

Has anyone heard of this before? I remember reading their was a very high rate of adult converts leaving the Adventist Church but did not realize it was this high.

Sincerely,
Maria1212

Excellent Post Maria1212

This really helps me to understand the Catholic take on the Sabbath question. May God bless you and keep you in this same spirit of study that you are blessing others here with.

 

[Michael_Howard]

Excellent Post Maria1212

This really helps me to understand the Catholic take on the Sabbath question. May God bless you and keep you in this same spirit of study that you are blessing others here with.

I think you may be treated differently if you were to understand that you are a guest here at a Catholic website instead of trouncing around throwing mud around in somebody elses house.

 

[Maria1212]

Excellent Post Maria1212

This really helps me to understand the Catholic take on the Sabbath question. May God bless you and keep you in this same spirit of study that you are blessing others here with.

I apologize for taking the thread off topic. If anyone has additional information on these statistics, please feel free to PM me.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

I think you may be treated differently if you were to understand that you are a guest here at a Catholic website instead of trouncing around throwing mud around in somebody elses house.

You are throwing “mud” in my house too! I am just giving it back to you.

You can treat me whatever way you want. That’s not what bothers me. What bothers me is that you call it truth.

 

[Michael_Howard]

You are throwing “mud” in my house too! I am just giving it back to you.

You can treat me whatever way you want. That’s not what bothers me. What bothers me is that you call it truth.

Ok let’s start again, I apologize if I have offended you and let’s try and have a descent discussion, now back to the issue at hand:

The Scriptures are very clear that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was not given before Moses:
The Ten Commandments was not made with the fathers. Deuteronomy 5:2-3 says
*“The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today.” *
Nehemiah 9:13-14 says: "You came down on Mount Sinai; you spoke to them from heaven. You gave them regulations and laws that are just and right, and decrees and commands that are good. You made known to them your holy sabbath and gave them commands, decrees and laws through your servant Moses."

 

[Maria1212]

Dear Protestant 101,

Saturday is a remembrance of creation. However, it was a shadow of what was to come (Col: 2:17).

Holy Scripture does not indicate whether it was Jesus Christ, who commanded his Church to change the obeservation of His day from the seventh to the first day of the week, or whether the Church did it. Regardless, Christ`s Church has the right to do it since Jesus commanded “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The Church did not abolish the content of Saturday. Rather, the sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday, which recalls the new creation inaugurated the Resurrection of Christ. (Catechism of the Catholic Church).

There were two Creations. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old creation has passed away, behold the new creation has come.” (2 Cor 5:17)

For neither does circumcision mean anything, nor does uncircumcision, but only a new creation. " (Gal 6:15)

The Old Creation is commemorated by Saturday, the new one, by Sunday.

Moreover, the Church did not change Old Testament Saturday to Sunday in the year 313, as Adventists wrongly insist. It was help holy from the beginning. We can see that by reading the works of the early Church Fathers. I would be happy to cite examples of this if you like.

Nor, was the change done by force. For as we see in Romans "One man esteems one day better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. ** Anyone who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. **Romans 14:5-6)

I hope this clarifies why Catholics, and most Christians, choose to worship the Lord on Sunday.

Sincerely,

Maria1212