Several Early Church Fathers do not agree with Roman Catholic teachings regarding Mary.

[SIA]

Why bother?

The fact that a doctrine ,not yet defined, was not held unanimously is not only acceptable, it is to be expected. The defined canon of the New Testament was not held by all early fathers. Does this make you doubt the validity of the New Testament?

What’s amazing is the large percentage of early fathers who already understood the immaculate conception well before it was defined as doctrine.

We exposed several distortions in your post. Some of the people you quoted did in fact support the doctrine as defined by the Church.

Even if so it has been proven that some of the Early Church Fathers did in fact reject the Marian dogmas.

 

[SIA]

We can’t even find all the ECF in agreement on the OT and NT!

Which, according to your logic SIA, means the canon isn’t correct…

two completely different subjects my freind.

 

[cfrancis]

We can’t even find all the ECF in agreement on the OT and NT!

Which, according to your logic SIA, means the canon isn’t correct…

two completely different subjects my freind.

I see you yourself have provided the refutation to your attempt at a rebuttal:

Even if so it has been proven that some of the Early Church Fathers did in fact reject the Marian dogmas.

And some of the ECF questioned or rejected the canonicity of some books in the OT and NT.

Which, by SIA’s logic, means the canon is wrong…

 

[ufamtobie]

You have heard me say it time and time again. Some of you claim that I have no material or actual quotes from early Church Fathers to back up making this statement. You are wrong and I will produce them here. I decided to make a thread out of this fact in history that isn’t very popular with many Catholics but does remain a fact. Many of the early Church Fathers made statements in direct opposition to Catholic teaching regarding Mary. Here are some.

1. Clement of Alexandria - The Word, Jesus Christ **ALONE **was born without sin.

Sia, True Jesus was Alone born and so was Mary

1. St. Augustine- Christ alone being made a man but remaining God NEVER had any sin nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother.****
2. Ambrose - of all that are born of women, the Holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experiencednot the contagion of earthly corruption

Sia, is Ambrose contradicting himself? Ambrose also said:**St. Ambrose

. . . Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin. (Commentary on Psalm 118, 22, 30; Jurgens, II, 166)

What is greater than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? (Virginity, II, 6; NPNF 2, Vol. X, 374)**

1. St. Bernard - Our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a NEW FEAST that is UNKNOWN to the rite of Church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions, The feast of The Immaculate Conception.
2. St. Thomas Aquinas****- What honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception… which was anterior to her birth? Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, that is logical. Then it would be necessary to honor her grandparents and her great grandparents and there would be no end at all. there would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise.

6.Peter Lombard- But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was **conceived without original sin? We say that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

7.Melchoir Cannas - The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was NOWHERE delivered in Holy Scripture.

1. St. Antoninus**Leo l- The Lord Jesus Christ ALONE among the sons of men was born WITHOUT SIN.
2. Pope Galatus It belongs to the Immaculate Lamb to have NO SIN.
3. Gregory l - Christ ALONE was truly born HOLY.
4. Innocent lll- Eve was produced WITHOUT SIN but she brought fourth in sin. Mary was brought forth IN SIN, but she brought forth without sin.

How is it that so many of the Early Church go so far as to condemn the Catholic teachings of Mary, but yet Catholicism plainly ignores them. Are you saying that they are all wrong?

****SIA,

YOU FOUND THIS ON THE “SPERO FORUM” YOU COPIED AND PASTED IN ORDER you make it seem that you did some reseach lol you only did some googleing lol shame on you for not saying the truth to where you found this, YOU PICKED AND CHOOSE THOSE WHO ARE AGAINST MARY’S IMMACULATE CONCEPTION You LEFT OUT OR I SHOULD SAY YOU DID NOT COPY AND PASTE THE many Church fathers who believed that Mary was born without sin Such as:****

1. **B]St. Athanasius

He (Christ) took it (His body) from a pure and unstained Virgin, who had not known man. (On the Incarnation of the Word, 8; Gambero, 102)**

1. **St. Ephraem

Mary and Eve, two people without guilt, two simple people, were identical. Later, however, one became the cause of our death, the other the cause of our life (Op. syr. II, 327; Ott, 201)

The Virgin Mary is a symbol of the Church, when she receives the first announcement of the gospel . . . We call the Church by the name of Mary, for she deserves a double name. (Sermo ad noct. Resurr.; Gambero, 115)

Thou and thy mother are the only ones who are totally beautiful in every respect; for in thee, O Lord, there is no spot, and in thy Mother no stain. (Nisibene Hymns, 27, v. 8; Ott, 201)**

1. **St. Gregory of Nyssa

It was, to divulge by the manner of His Incarnation this great secret; that purity is the only complete indication of the presence of God and of His coming, and that no one can in reality secure this for himself, unless he has altogether estranged himself from the passions of the flesh. What happened in the stainless Mary when the fulness of the Godhead which was in Christ shone out through her, that happens in every soul that leads by rule the virgin life. (On Virginity, 2; NPNF 2, Vol. V, 344)

[T]he power of the Most High, through the Holy Spirit, overshadowed the human nature and was formed therein; that is to say, the portion of flesh was formed in the immaculate Virgin. (Against Apollinaris, 6; Gambero, 153)**

1. B]St. Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the Virgin, who had first been purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor. (Sermon 38, 13; Gambero, 162-163)

TO BE CONTINUED … PART 1 OF 2

 

[ufamtobie]

**PART 2 0F 2

More Early Church Fathers who agree with Roman Catholic Teachings Regarding Mary**

6. **Pope St. Leo the Great

For the uncorrupt nature of Him that was born had to guard the primal virginity of the Mother, and the infused power of the Divine Spirit had to preserve in spotlessness and holiness that sanctuary which He had chosen for Himself . . . (Sermon XXII: On the Feast of the Nativity, Part II; NPNF 2, Vol. XII)**

**7. St. Cyril of Jerusalem

Pure and spotless is this birth. For where the Holy Spirit breathes, all pollution is taken away, so that the human birth of the Only-begotten from the Virgin is undefiled. (Catechetical Lectures, XII, 31-32; Gambero, 140)**

8. **St. Cyril of Alexandria

Hail, Mary Theotokos, Virgin-Mother, lightbearer, uncorrupt vessel . . . Hail Mary, you are the most precious creature in the whole world; hail, Mary, uncorrupt dove; hail, Mary, inextinguishable lamp; for from you was born the Sun of justice . . . Through you, every faithful soul achieves salvation. (Homily 11 at the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus; Gambero, 243, 245)

I see the assembly of the saints, all zealously gathered together, invited by the holy Mother of God, Mary, ever-virgin . . . We hail you, O Mary Mother of God, venerable treasure of the entire world, inextinguishable lamp, crown of virginity, scepter of orthodoxy, imperishable temple, container of him who cannot be contained . . . ; Gambero, 247-248)**

**
9. St. Jerome

‘There shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a flower shall grow out of his roots.’ The rod is the mother of the Lord–simple, pure, unsullied; drawing no germ of life from without but fruitful in singleness like God Himself… Set before you the blessed Mary, whose surpassing purity made her meet to be the mother of the Lord. (Letter XXII. To Eustochium, 19, 38; NPNF 2, Vol. VI, 29, 39; cf. Gambero, p. 213: “whose purity was so great that she merited to be the Mother of the Lord”)

Indeed how inferior they are, in terms of holiness, to blessed Mary, Mother of the Lord! (Contra Pelagianos, 1, 16; Gambero, 212)**

**10. Theodotus

“Hail, O full of grace, the Lord is with you, you are blessed” (Lk 1:28), O most beautiful and most noble among women. The Lord is with you, O all-holy one, glorious and good. The Lord is with you, O worthy of praise, O incomparable, O more than glorious, all splendor, worthy of God, worthy of all blessedness . . . spouse of God, divinely nourished treasure. To you I announce neither a conception in wickedness nor a birth in sin; instead, I bring the joy that puts an end to Eve’s sorrow. To you I proclaim neither a trying pregnancy nor a painful delivery . . . Through you, Eve’s odious condition is ended; through you, abjection has been destroyed; through you, error is dissolved; through you, sorrow is abolished; through you, condemnation has been erased. Through you, Eve has been redeemed. (On the Mother of God and the Nativity; Gambero, 271)

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns. (Homily VI, 11; O’Carroll, 339)

If iron, once joined to fire, immediately expels the impurities extraneous to its nature and swiftly acquires a likeness to the powerful flame that heats it, . . . how much more, in a superior way, did the Virgin burn when the divine fire (the Holy Spirit) rushed in? She was purified from earthly impurities, and from whatever might be against her nature, and was restored to her original beauty, so as to become inaccessible, untouchable, and irreconcilable to carnal things. (Homily 4, 6; Gambero, 264)

Innocent virgin, spotless, without defect, untouched, unstained, holy in body and in soul, like a lily-flower sprung among thorns, unschooled in the wickedness of Eve . . . clothed with divine grace as with a cloak . . . (Homily 6, 11; Gambero, 268)**

11. **St. John Damascene

O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew. (Homily I on the Nativity of Mary; O’Carroll, 200; cf. Graef, 154; Gambero, 402)**

**12. St. Sophronius

Others before you have flourished with outstanding holiness. But to none as to you has the fullness of grace been given. None has been endowed with happiness as you, none adorned with holiness like yours, none brought to such great magnificence as yours; no one was ever possessed beforehand by purifying grace as were you . . . And this deservedly, for no one came as close to God as you did; no one was enriched with God’s gifts as you were; no one shared God’s grace as you did. (In SS Deip. Annunt. 22; O’Carroll, 329)**

**13. St. Andrew of Crete

Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God. . . . The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation. (Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity; O’Carroll, 180)

. . . alone wholly without stain . . . (Canon for the Conception of Anne; Graef, 152)**

14. B](Graef, 154)
She is all beautiful, all near to God. For she, surpassing the cherubim, exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God. (Homily on the Nativity, 9; Gambero, 403)

St. Epiphanius

Mary, the holy Virgin, is truly great before God and men. For how shall we not proclaim her great, who held within her the uncontainable One, whom neither heaven nor earth can contain? (Panarion, 30, 31; Gambero, 127)

Sia, I cut and pasted what you forgot to lol

Ufamtobie

 

[ufamtobie]

**Sia,

The Church not individuals has the power to bind or loose anything and through the Grace of Jesus Christ the Catholic Church tells the Truth about Virgin Mary’s Immaculate Conception for it is the HOLY SPIRIT WHO GUIDES THE CHURCH not men.

Ufamtobie**

 

[Ag_not]

Even if so it has been proven that some of the Early Church Fathers did in fact reject the Marian dogmas.

Why are you so utterly consumed by, and disturbed by, Mary? You have proven absolutely nothing. Nothing. And you can’t. So I’m left wondering if it’s some sort of point scoring game with you, or if your conscience is troubled somehow since you left the catholic church? Honest questions and comments by the way, I’m not being nasty or sarky, but I appreciate a short response like this could read so.

I hope you had a wonderful joyous Christmas.

 

[cfrancis]

****SIA,

YOU FOUND THIS ON THE “SPERO FORUM” YOU COPIED AND PASTED IN ORDER you make it seem that you did some reseach lol you only did some googleing lol shame on you for not saying the truth to where you found this, YOU PICKED AND CHOOSE THOSE WHO ARE AGAINST MARY’S IMMACULATE CONCEPTION You LEFT OUT OR I SHOULD SAY YOU DID NOT COPY AND PASTE THE many Church fathers who believed that Mary was born without sin Such as:****

I found the same evidence. I was intrigued at the number of times I found the same quotes, with the same wording, in the same order, each time without the sources.

I dare say, if the tables were turned, and a Catholic was offering up an alleged quote from an ECF, we’d be asked for the citation. Imagine I posted this from Clement of Alexandria, providing no sources:

“Some have attempted to spread a false teaching about the mother of our Lord, declaring her to be a sinner as the rest of humanity. Let them be refuted and corrected by that which was handed down to us by the Apostles and those they taught, that the mother of our Lord was spared the agony of sin by the merits of her Son, the Word made Flesh.”

 

[PJM]

More clarity for you:

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

VERY WELL DONE! POST 32 and 33 you both nailed THE TRUTH!

Is a partial truth, or an icomplete truth the same as a “lie?” I suspect the answe has to do with entent, which we cannot judge!

Thank you my friends in Chirst, very well done

PJM m.c.

 

[PJM]

Can anybody reute all twelve quotes that I provided and prove that the Early Church was totally in accordance with the Marian teachings of Catholicism? I’m seeing the picking apart of Ambrose and maybe a couple others but nobody had openly refuted that these 12 Early Church Fathers made statements in direct opposition to the Catholic teachings on Mary.

Oh, so now it’s “all twelve,” not merely “some”

The Fathers you quoted are Very OLD fathers of the RCC.

Doctrine and Dogma’s by necessaity and common-sense do evolve with time. However the RCC has been very clear on this Doctine, and since 1854 a Dogma, for more than 1,000 years.

As I pointed out in an eariler post, there are NO PAPAL infallible declarations from the early Church in support of your position, which is pernicious and very clever. Merely dialog and searching for THE Truth. Amen! Which the Holy Spirit shared with us a VERY long time ago.

So your point is?

God bless you my friend in Christ,

PJM m.c.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Even if so it has been proven that some of the Early Church Fathers did in fact reject the Marian dogmas.

You can’t reject something that has not been defined.

However, they may have had an incomplete understanding of the doctrines.

It’s amusing that you would make such an argument given that many protestant beliefs are flatly rejected by a large majority of the early fathers.

 

[PJM]

Were there any four word statements (snippets) from any of the twelve Early Church Fathers that I quoted? Case closed.

No my friend, but another nice try

My reading of your OP and the many excellent replies lead me to believe that the only thing “closed” is your mind

What are you afraid of?

Your quotes have been either refuted or explained is quite some detail.

God bless you, it does seem however that we are now:nunchuk:
So maybe we should go on to the next querry?

God bless you my friend in Christ,

PJM m.c.

 

[ufamtobie]

Even if so it has been proven that some of the Early Church Fathers did in fact reject the Marian dogmas.

**Sia,

Listen, even the Apostles debated on the question of CIRCUMCSION! Such as in: (Acts 15: 1-11)

Sia, It was St. Peter the leader of the Catholic church, guided by the Holy Spirit who told Peter to say that Circumcsion is not needed for SALVATION.

Sia, Also, it was the Holy Spirit who guided the Early Church Fathers to say that Virgin Mary is the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

Sia, you are fighting against the Holy Spirit not Mary and certainly not us CATHOLICS!

Again, shame on you for cutting and pasting from the spero forum. See how you work you would do anything to discredit the Mother of God, becarful for you may be discredited by Jesus Christ, for every son Loves his mother, and who Loves Virgin Mary MORE than Jesus Christ. I tell you NO ONE!

Ufamtobie**

 

[ufamtobie]

Can anybody reute all twelve quotes that I provided and prove that the Early Church was totally in accordance with the Marian teachings of Catholicism? I’m seeing the picking apart of Ambrose and maybe a couple others but nobody had openly refuted that these 12 Early Church Fathers made statements in direct opposition to the Catholic teachings on Mary.

**Sia,

Again, as in (ACTS 15:1-11)

Sia, there has been debates on many things in the church such as circumcsion perhaps even on the Immcaulate Conception… but we know that HISTORY and TRUTH always prevails through the Holy Spirit.

It is through the Catholic Church guided by the Holy Spirit that we and YOU wether you like it or not, know that Virgin Mary was Concieved Immaculate!

Sia, don’t worry about it, if it be the Lords will to give you this Grace to beleive the Truth about Virgin Mary’s Immaculate Conception, YOU WILL!

If not, then I guess you can go to the spero forum and cut and paste some more I’m sure there must be alot of People there trying to discredit Virgin Mary’s Immaculate Conception, to their own discredit of course as you have by cutting and pasting

Ufamtobie**

 

[ufamtobie]

You can’t refute them period. My references are going to be anti-Catholic in your eyes anyway so why get into that argument?

It isn’t about the truth with many of you, it’s about your church and what your church sanctions.

 

[ufamtobie]

baloney. The quotes I gave are concise and plain.

I think you should say that your qoutes were “copied and pasted from Spero Forum.” lol

I think you should be embarrassed

Ufamtobie

 

[steve_b]

You can’t refute them period.

1st you need to prove they said what you posted. That’s showing evidence. If I said Jesus said something, and you wanted evidence of that, you would ask me to provide chapter and verse for proof…correct? If I said to you in response, no I won’t do that, and said to you that you have to prove He didn’t say that, would that be good enough for you?..I didn’t think so

You made claims that the following said:

:

1. Clement of Alexandria - The Word, Jesus Christ **ALONE **was born without sin.
2. St. Augustine- Christ alone being made a man but remaining God NEVER had any sin nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother.
3. Ambrose - of all that are born of women, the Holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experiencednot the contagion of earthly corruption
4. St. Bernard - Our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a NEW FEAST that is UNKNOWN to the rite of Church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions, The feast of The Immaculate Conception.
5. St. Thomas Aquinas****- What honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception… which was anterior to her birth? Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, that is logical. Then it would be necessary to honor her grandparents and her great grandparents and there would be no end at all. there would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise.

6.Peter Lombard- But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was **conceived without original sin? We say that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

7.Melchoir Cannas - The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was NOWHERE delivered in Holy Scripture.**

1. St. Antoninus
2. Leo l- The Lord Jesus Christ ALONE among the sons of men was born WITHOUT SIN.
3. Pope Galatus It belongs to the Immaculate Lamb to have NO SIN.
4. Gregory l - Christ ALONE was truly born HOLY.
5. Innocent lll- Eve was produced WITHOUT SIN but she brought fourth in sin. Mary was brought forth IN SIN, but she brought forth without sin

Please Give references, chapter, verse, encyclical, etc etc etc where these came from. That’s how you provide evidence.

These are all people who have their work in the public domain. So please show your proof properly referenced. THAT’S how you prove someone says what you claim they said.

The point here stands. Many of the Early Church Fathers made statements which directly and in some cases completely oppose Catholic teaching regarding Mary.

The ECF’s are online. So when they say something, do some homework when quoting, to prove your point. If you can’t prove they said these things properly referenced, then you have no evidence they said it.

I can’t believe I have to explain this to you.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

?? What? I stated factual quotes from Early Church Fathers. Their statements refuted Catholic dogma on their own.

**Not factual enough, unfortunately. When history & dogmatism are opposed, dogmatism always wins: there is no such thing as an objection that cannot be overcome. The dogmatic position is what matters - & because it is right, & cannot possibly be wrong, no objection, however well-supported or true, matters a straw. All arguments, about anything are arguments for the dogmatic position. **​

This is typical of Fundamentalism **“Catholic Truth” is exactly that - which does not mean it is what an ordinary human being would call true; it’s what Catholic Fundamentalism needs to be true: so it is. This is truth as Party ideology. **

 

[SIA]

I think you should say that your qoutes were “copied and pasted from Spero Forum.” lol

I think you should be embarrassed

Ufamtobie

They were not. Instead of trying to derail plain evidence that many of the ECF’s didn’t jive with the RCC’s Marian dogmas, you should attempt to refute the 12 examples I gave. It should be easy, right?

 

[peary]

You have heard me say it time and time again. Some of you claim that I have no material or actual quotes from early Church Fathers to back up making this statement. You are wrong and I will produce them here. I decided to make a thread out of this fact in history that isn’t very popular with many Catholics but does remain a fact. Many of the early Church Fathers made statements in direct opposition to Catholic teaching regarding Mary. Here are some.

1. Clement of Alexandria - The Word, Jesus Christ **ALONE **was born without sin.
2. St. Augustine- Christ alone being made a man but remaining God NEVER had any sin nor did he take on flesh of sin, though he took flesh of the sin of his mother.****
3. Ambrose - of all that are born of women, the Holy Lord Jesus was the only one who experiencednot the contagion of earthly corruption
4. St. Bernard - Our astonishment is not small in seeing that some of you are believed to be able to introduce a NEW FEAST that is UNKNOWN to the rite of Church that cannot be approved by reason that it is condemned by the ancient traditions, The feast of The Immaculate Conception.
5. St. Thomas Aquinas****- What honor should we believe in attributing to Mary that honor may be had for her conception… which was anterior to her birth? Then would you say if others, according to your own reasoning, were to maintain that it is necessary to hold feasts in honor of her parents, that is logical. Then it would be necessary to honor her grandparents and her great grandparents and there would be no end at all. there would be feasts without number on the earth and it would be converted into a paradise.

6.Peter Lombard- But this is asked on what account and whence is it that Mary was **conceived without original sin? We say that it is IMPOSSIBLE.

7.Melchoir Cannas - The dogma that holds the blessed Virgin was free from the original sin was NOWHERE delivered in Holy Scripture.

1. St. Antoninus**Leo l- The Lord Jesus Christ ALONE among the sons of men was born WITHOUT SIN.
2. Pope Galatus It belongs to the Immaculate Lamb to have NO SIN.
3. Gregory l - Christ ALONE was truly born HOLY.
4. Innocent lll- Eve was produced WITHOUT SIN but she brought fourth in sin. Mary was brought forth IN SIN, but she brought forth without sin.

How is it that so many of the Early Church go so far as to condemn the Catholic teachings of Mary, but yet Catholicism plainly ignores them. Are you saying that they are all wrong?

All you do is refer a quote to a name. You do not cite the specific reference as to where these may be found. When you do, then we can respond appropriately. Otherwise, your quotes are meaningless without their proper reference/citation.