Sex and Society

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I’m currently re-reading Your Life is Worth Living by the late Bishop Fulton Sheen. In the chapter Sex is a Mystery, he writes:
We quote the sociologist Dr. Pitirim A. Sorokin, who writes:

“Those families among us who frequently change husbands and wives, who fail in their duties to their children, and adopt the moral code of the gutter are pushing us along the road to chaos. Greece, in the third and second centuries before Christ, brought sex into the open. We know because there were men in those days, too, who prided themselves on their objectivity as they calmly recorded the distressing picture of whole families getting together to indulge in promiscuous behavior. Adultery and prostitution were so common that those who indulged were regarded merely as interesting fellows.” (1)

Now note how this sociologist concludes:
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“But such a society was not able to summon the backbone to resist in the face of war or endure the austerity program that might have salvaged their overblown economy. Soon the glory that was Greece was over and the mighty acropolis was only a hillside strewn with ruined marble.”
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It would be well for any country which stresses the flesh too much to remember this lesson of history.
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(1) Social and Cultural Dynamics, by Pitirim A. Sorokin
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I would say that these words certainly apply to our 21st century American society today, don’t you think?
 
I agree that our society is over-sexed and it’s going to (and does) lead to moral decay, but the article makes it sound as if that moral decay resulted in this empire’s ruin. Any two events that happened around the same time are going to be correlated, but can we say that our depravity will result in North America one day being a hillside strewn with ruined marble?
 
I’ve posted this amalgam of Catholic writings on Homosexuality and often take snippets of it and post it when discussing same sex attraction issues.

It is here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/07/%e2%80%9cis-it-really-me-they-spite-is-it-not-in-fact-themselves-to-their-own-confusion%e2%80%9d/

I got this great reply, which I found very persuasive.

M. Galishoff says:

This teaching is based upon psychology. Though sexuality is indeed an essential element defined in God’s ordered creation, IMO, the approach here misses the Scriptural teaching that lies behind our identity.

We begin with God creating man in His image and come to Genesis 1:26:

" 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”

Here in the first creation account we have God creating man to be his appointed lord over creation and he made man “male and female.” It is in the second creation account we learn of the creation of woman after man names all the animals and finds none among them fit to be his mate.

Karl Barth, in creating his analogia feidi, views the original, perfect created man and woman as united in a perichoresis analogous to that of the three persona of the Trinity. In this perichoresis, in which each member is intimately infused with the other as a unity, inseparable yet unique, is God’s intended intimate communion between man and woman. “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.”

This is also seen in Christ incarnate, described as a hypostatic union - fully God and fully man - neither giving way to the other, each unique but united in one unity, indivisible. Redeemed and glorified man will once again be united with God but this time not “veiled” but united in such an intimate perichoresis. We become infused with one another, inseparable yet unique. And in the end man, woman and God are united as one, the crown of creation, as the members of the Trinity are united as one.

When sin entered this intended order was destroyed. For what do we read of Adam:

“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,
and have eaten of the tree
of which I commanded you,
`You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face
you shall eat bread
till you return to the ground,
for out of it you were taken;
you are dust,”

And of Eve:

To the woman he said,
“I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing;
in pain you shall bring forth children,
yet your desire shall be for your husband,
and he shall rule over you.”

Relationships are shattered: man, woman, creation and God are no longer in their proper order and it is by Grace and through Christ that this relationship can be restored. All relationships are shattered and dysfunctional because of sin. It is this context that Paul can write in Romans:

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. (Ro 1)

Its not just about homosexuality but about disorder, what Andre LaCoque calls the “Assault on Innocence.” All of our relationships are disordered, even those between man and woman. None are spared. But it is clear that the intended purpose of creation was for man, woman and God to be reunited in perichoresis, more intimate and immutable and perfect than the situation in Eden.

Though Jesus teaches that there will be no marriage in heaven, on this earth Scripture holds as the model of God’s ultimate purpose a marriage in which man and woman are united together in Christ. Marriage then becomes the analogia entis and feidi for our redeemed and glorified selves. But it remains an analogia and as such has become for us in this time of expectant waiting normative. The key to this analogia is having Christ as the third person of the union.

The ontology of the viewpoint and Church teaching, therefore, lay not in psychology or sociology (re: natural theology) but in God’s will and purpose in creation as described in the creation stories and expounded by Paul. The problem, likewise, lies not in psychology or sociology but in sin itself which distorts and degrades all relationships of every type. The cure is faith in Christ by God’s grace for all men.

I don’t think there is that much conflict between the two, Fr. Neuhaus wrote much of the part I quoted first and the fellow who replied to it is using more of a biblical response.

I wonder what you all think of it.

All replies greatly appreciated. Tried to post the essay but the forum balked at the length here.

dj
 
Primox said:
I agree that our society is over-sexed and it’s going to (and does) lead to moral decay, but the article makes it sound as if that moral decay resulted in this empire’s ruin. Any two events that happened around the same time are going to be correlated, but can we say that our depravity will result in North America one day being a hillside strewn with ruined marble?
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Possibly, but also recall that the Roman Empire rotted from the inside from sexual debauchery long before it fell to barbarians.

I recall reading or hearing some time ago about some researcher in the 1960s (I’m not sure who, I wish I could find out the source) who looked at most of the famous empires of the ancient world and concluded that many of them collapsed when they reached the level of moral decay that the US currently was at. I think you can agree that we’ve plummeted precipitously since then.
 
djeter said:
I’ve posted this amalgam of Catholic writings on Homosexuality and often take snippets of it and post it when discussing same sex attraction issues.

All replies greatly appreciated. Tried to post the essay but the forum balked at the length here.
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Hi djeter! 👋

Good quotes. You know, you can copy a portion of the text, past it to a post, then copy the next portion, then paste it in a succeeding post, and so on.
 
RNRobert said:
Possibly, but also recall that the Roman Empire rotted from the inside from sexual debauchery long before it fell to barbarians.

I recall reading or hearing some time ago about some researcher in the 1960s (I’m not sure who, I wish I could find out the source) who looked at most of the famous empires of the ancient world and concluded that many of them collapsed when they reached the level of moral decay that the US currently was at. I think you can agree that we’ve plummeted precipitously since then.
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Some years back someone * commented that if God allows the U.S. to go unpunished He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.*
 
Joe_Kelley said:
Some years back someone * commented that if God allows the U.S. to go unpunished He will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.*

I’ve heard that quote. As a matter of fact, I used it in another thread on this forum regarding moral issues. Somebody replied to th effect that our circumstances were different as we had the Mass to provide grace. I responded by saying this might be true, but on the other hand, Jesus tells us that to whom much is given, more is expected.
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RNRobert said:
Possibly, but also recall that the Roman Empire rotted from the inside from sexual debauchery long before it fell to barbarians.

I recall reading or hearing some time ago about some researcher in the 1960s (I’m not sure who, I wish I could find out the source) who looked at most of the famous empires of the ancient world and concluded that many of them collapsed when they reached the level of moral decay that the US currently was at. I think you can agree that we’ve plummeted precipitously since then.
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I get what you’re saying. I’m just thinking that there’s so many variables to examine and hold constant throughout bygone millennia. I don’t disbelieve it, I just think it’s a heavy claim to make.

Do you suppose God specifically allows the distruction of nations which are in a state of moral decay? (This isn’t a trap-question or anything, I’m just curious to know what you think).
 
Primox said:
I get what you’re saying. I’m just thinking that there’s so many variables to examine and hold constant throughout bygone millennia. I don’t disbelieve it, I just think it’s a heavy claim to make.

Do you suppose God specifically allows the distruction of nations which are in a state of moral decay? (This isn’t a trap-question or anything, I’m just curious to know what you think).
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Hi Primox.

Good questions. I believe God used the Israelites to punish the Canaanites for their moral decay (they practiced temple prostitution and child sacrifice), and when the Israelites fell into those same sins (read 1st and 2nd Kings), they were punished as well.
But does God specifically allow the destruction of nations that are in a state of decay? I don’t think so. God is not like Zeus on Mt Olympus hurling thunderbolts at erring humans. Rather, the moral law has its own intrinsic penalties, and when we break them, we suffer the consequences. In college I read Stephen Covey’s The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, and he tells a story of a battleship on maneuvers that spotted a light dead ahead. The captain repeatedly signaled the unknown vessel to turn to starboard, only to get return messages telling him to change course. The captain identified himself as a battleship, and the unknown vessel identified itself as a lighthouse. The battleship changed course. Covey also quotes Cecil B. deMille (director of the movie The Ten Commandments): “It is impossible for us to break the law. We can only break ourselves against the law.” I don’t think I could put it better than that.
As for there being multiple factors in a society’s collapse, perhaps, but if you look at most of the empires throughout history, I think almost all of them were in an advanced state of moral decay when they collapsed.
 
Very interesting perspective and summation. I think I might agree with you.
 
Primox said:
Very interesting perspective and summation. I think I might agree with you.
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Thank you!

I would also add that God allows these things to happen not so much to punish us, but to lead us back to Him. A few years a go I read a book titled A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, and the author told how if a shepherd had a particularly wayward lamb, he would break its leg to keep it from wandering, and carry the lamb on his back while the leg healed. Once the leg was completely healed, the lamb would be less likely to roam.
As the Lord told King Solomon, “If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land” (2 Chron. 7:14).
 
It appears to me that God will always forgive the repentant sinner, but it is not as clear that He will forgive the nation that deserts Him. Note 2 Chronicles 34:23-28
“Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: ‘Tell the man who sent you to me, 24 Thus says the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place and upon its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which was read before the king of Judah. 25 Because they have forsaken me and have burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands, therefore my wrath will be poured out upon this place and will not be quenched. 26 But to the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, thus shall you say to him, Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Regarding the words which you have heard, 27 because your heart was penitent and you humbled yourself before God when you heard his words against this place and its inhabitants, and you have humbled yourself before me, and have rent your clothes and wept before me, I also have heard you, says the LORD. 28 Behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place and its inhabitants.’”
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RNRobert said:
Thank you!

I would also add that God allows these things to happen not so much to punish us, but to lead us back to Him. A few years a go I read a book titled A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23, and the author told how if a shepherd had a particularly wayward lamb, he would break its leg to keep it from wandering, and carry the lamb on his back while the leg healed. Once the leg was completely healed, the lamb would be less likely to roam.
As the Lord told King Solomon, “If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land” (2 Chron. 7:14).
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That makes sense; very interesting. Thank you for this. 👍
 
I don’t know if societal decay causes sexual corruption or if sexual licentiousness causes societal decay. They seem to help each other along.

But I do think that the quoted piece from Fulton Sheen about a corrupt society being too weak-willed to withstand war and austerity has some merit.

A society which begins on the road to free sex ends with free killing of the weak and vulnerable, as we have seen in our own country. And a society which fails to stand up for the weak may ultimately fail to stand up for itself.
 
I wish to back sexual freedom by taking the words of our lord in the Gospel John 8:1 to 11. Jesus said to the people that those who have no sins may throw stones at her.
In another part Jesus says that those who look at a women with bad feelings have already done adultery in heart.
On the basis of these words, what should we do? As per the second statement, we even should not look at a beautiful girl. Is iot possible?
But as per the first statement, I think we need to control our desires. But if sex happens we need not concern about that much.
I may take an example from the Victorian era. In those days British empire preached and implemented stict laws on morality and abstaining from sex before marriage. But a study has found that sexual abuses were so much in such a society. Also sexual abuses against children were common.
I may point that homosexuality was the reason for the destruction of Roman and Greek civilisations. Bisexual sexual freedom may lead to homosexual activities and it may lead to the decline of a society. I do not think think that bisexual freesom will result in any problem. But in my opinion homosexuality must be strictly controlled. Otherwise all the males in that society will become homosexuals as in the case of Sodom and Gomorra.
Also I may point out what is happening in a strictly controlled society like Saudi Arabia. There a mother cannot leave her daughter alone in the house for going to somewhere. This is becuase her father and brother will do sex on her. This is happening in that nation.
Also I am from an orthodox society in India. Here also there is not much romance or much interaction between boys and girls. But I may point you that here also children are suffering from much sexual abuses even from their parents.
Then I think personal freedom or sexual freedom must be given. But homosexuality must be avoided. I think homosexuality occurs because of one’s lifestyle and the environment through which he grew. For example in my case I had no freedom. I was not able to interact with girls in my childhood. In school classes, girls and boys were sit separately. If a boy and girl talks then nuns will advise and scold us. They say it is a sin. As a result my deviation was much towards boys. Also I found that in college hostels nowadays in such a strict society, most of the boys are practicing homosexuality.
 
josethomas2005 said:
I wish to back sexual freedom by taking the words of our lord in the Gospel John 8:1 to 11. Jesus said to the people that those who have no sins may throw stones at her.
In another part Jesus says that those who look at a women with bad feelings have already done adultery in heart.
On the basis of these words, what should we do? As per the second statement, we even should not look at a beautiful girl. Is iot possible?
But as per the first statement, I think we need to control our desires. But if sex happens we need not concern about that much.
I may take an example from the Victorian era. In those days British empire preached and implemented stict laws on morality and abstaining from sex before marriage. But a study has found that sexual abuses were so much in such a society. Also sexual abuses against children were common.
I may point that homosexuality was the reason for the destruction of Roman and Greek civilisations. Bisexual sexual freedom may lead to homosexual activities and it may lead to the decline of a society. I do not think think that bisexual freesom will result in any problem. But in my opinion homosexuality must be strictly controlled. Otherwise all the males in that society will become homosexuals as in the case of Sodom and Gomorra.
Also I may point out what is happening in a strictly controlled society like Saudi Arabia. There a mother cannot leave her daughter alone in the house for going to somewhere. This is becuase her father and brother will do sex on her. This is happening in that nation.
Also I am from an orthodox society in India. Here also there is not much romance or much interaction between boys and girls. But I may point you that here also children are suffering from much sexual abuses even from their parents.
Then I think personal freedom or sexual freedom must be given. But homosexuality must be avoided. I think homosexuality occurs because of one’s lifestyle and the environment through which he grew. For example in my case I had no freedom. I was not able to interact with girls in my childhood. In school classes, girls and boys were sit separately. If a boy and girl talks then nuns will advise and scold us. They say it is a sin. As a result my deviation was much towards boys. Also I found that in college hostels nowadays in such a strict society, most of the boys are practicing homosexuality.
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By sexual freedom, do you mean the ability of men and women to choose spouses for themselves, or do you mean the ability of people to have sex with whoever and wherever they choose without regard to marriage? If you mean the former, I agree, but not with the latter. The purpose of sex is twofold (besides providing pleasure): two make a man and a woman one flesh (Genesis 2;24, Matthew 19:5-6) and to be open to the transmission of life, as well as to provide a stable environment for the children. In our current free sex society, how have the children benefited? I agree that the Victorian society (as well as the societies you mentioned) are too repressed regarding sex, but in the Western world, I think the pendulum as swung far too much in the other direction.
God created sex, so it is good. However it is marred by sin, just as God created the ability to enjoy food, but which can lead to gluttony if used improperly.
When Jesus spoke about committing adultery by looking at a woman lustfully, He did not mean we are never to look at an attractive woman. There is a difference between seeing an attractive woman and saying,“Gee, 'd like to get to know her better” and “Gee, I’d really like to go for a roll in the hay with her.” When I was in nursing school, I was taught that thoughts- precede feelings- precede actions. In other words, what we think influences what we feel and ultimately how we act. For instance, if I view pornography (or even look at women with the thought of what I’d like to do with them in bed), then feelings of lust will be inflamed and if I continue with this, it’s only a matter of time before I act on those feelings.
 
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