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Tannhauser
Guest
As above. Is it Scriptural? What’s the justification?
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NHInsider
Guest
Hmm - not sure where you were headed with this. Strictly speaking under the Old Covenant there was no such thing as “pre-marital sex” since non-adulterous sex = marriage (with the added proviso that the man gave up the right to divorce his wife). The NT talks about divorce, fornication and adultery but doesn’t detail how marriage is to be formalized. In the New Covenant the Church has defined the terms and parameters of marriage. Just one of the many topics in which sola scriptura is an inadequate guideline.
po18guy
Well-known member
OK, I’ll bite. Saint Paul teaches, as was recorded in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (New International Version, ©2010)
“Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
Seems clear enough.
“Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
Seems clear enough.
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steve_b
Guest
Sex by 2 unmarried people = fornication
Gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are plain*: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, * drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
When a sin is serious enough to keep one out of heaven, i.e. they go to hell if they die with this sin on their soul, it is a mortal sin.
1 Jn 5:
*16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God * will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. *
Notice John says sins that aren’t mortal (i,e, venial sins) one can pray and ask forgiveness and their sins are forgiven. But John says it’s not that way with mortal sins.
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Vince1022
Guest
Did it happen in Scripture, in any number of narrative accounts read literally? Yes.
Does that mean Scripture condones or supports it? No.
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Tannhauser
Guest
Best response. Thank-you; helpful.
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Tannhauser
Guest
As regards the [your] bold, I was fascinated by John’s seeming acknowledgement of that difference which exist between what we name venial and mortal sin; and then I read the commentary in my Douay.
“The difference can not be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal: for he says, that if a man pray for his brother, who commits a sin that is not to death, life shall be given him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin.”
And he seems to be right: the idea that life will be given to he that commits a sin not unto death, suggests that such a man has lost that sanctifying life [grace], as one does when a mortal sin is committed. I am at a loss on this one.
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steve_b
Guest
Are you asking what does one do to get rid of mortal sin?
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Vince1022
Guest
That is not what the OP asked. Read post #1. The question was not about sex by 2 unmarried people.
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davidv
Guest
Based on the OP response in post #6, the missing words (implied) in the OP question are "Is the prohibition of sex…? So steve b’s response was appropriate.
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Holly3278
Guest
Sex before marriage, also known as fornication, is explicitly condemned in the Bible.
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.’
(Acts 15:28-29 NRSV-CE)
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, ‘The two shall be one flesh.’ But anyone united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun fornication! Every sin that a person commits is outside the body; but the fornicator sins against the body itself. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own?
(1 Corinthians 6:15-19 NRSV-CE)
We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
(1 Corinthians 10:8 NRSV-CE)
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But fornication and impurity of any kind, or greed, must not even be mentioned among you, as is proper among saints.
(Ephesians 5:1-3 NRSV-CE)
These are just a couple of the verses in the Bible about it.
For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to impose on you no further burden than these essentials: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.’
(Acts 15:28-29 NRSV-CE)
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that whoever is united to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For it is said, ‘The two shall be one flesh.’ But anyone united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. Shun fornication! Every sin that a person commits is outside the body; but the fornicator sins against the body itself. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God, and that you are not your own?
(1 Corinthians 6:15-19 NRSV-CE)
We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
(1 Corinthians 10:8 NRSV-CE)
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. But fornication and impurity of any kind, or greed, must not even be mentioned among you, as is proper among saints.
(Ephesians 5:1-3 NRSV-CE)
These are just a couple of the verses in the Bible about it.
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Vince1022
Guest
Didn’t Abraham have sex with Hagar? They weren’t married. See Genesis 16.
Are you saying this was explicitly condemned by the Bible?
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davidv
Guest
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Vince1022
Guest
How does this relate to the OP? Read post #1.
Or is this a different topic? If so, please start a new Thread.
thanks!
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davidv
Guest
I answered your question. If it didn’t relate, why did you ask the question?
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Vince1022
Guest
No, you didn’t answer my question. Please, read my post again.
I asked:
Your response had nothing to do with what I asked.
Did it?
Your response was:
That response not only had nothing to do with my questions, but was not an answer to anything. Your response was simply more questions. Not an answer.
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steve_b
Guest
- Abraham was married to Sarah .
- Genesis doesn’t say specifically that Hagar became Abraham’s wife #2.
- therefore, your question is, if Hagar is NOT Abraham’s wife, did he do something condemned in scripture by having sex with her?
- The 7th commandment is “thou shall not commit adultery” (unfaithful spouse)
- Since the 10 commandments were given after Abraham
- Abraham can’t be guilty of breaking a law that wasn’t given yet
Was Hagar Abraham’s wife or not?
Ishmael is Abraham’s 1st born son through Hagar. 1st born sons are a HUGE DEAL in the OT. All the promises go to the 1st born son. But God didn’t make the covenant in that direction with Abram’s 1st born. He made it with the Sarah and Issac direction which happened almost 20 years after Ishmael was born.
What’s YOUR conclusion?
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Vince1022
Guest
Thanks. Guess the OP’s original post was not as specific as it could have been.
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Vince1022
Guest
Whether it was a blessing or not is a separate question.
I thought the OP asked if sex before marriage was scriptural. That’s all. Seems to be that Abraham and Hagar is a situation of sex before (or outside) marriage. That’s all.
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Vince1022
Guest
Of course Hagar need not be considered Abram’s wife. And of course Abram and Hagar had a child. As Scripture attests.
So, to original question, Abram (Abraham) and Hagar conceived a child through sexual relations even though they were not married. That’s all.
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