Sex Before Marriage Dispute

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filledesagesse

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Hello,
I am a jeune fille au pair in France working for a wonderful young Catholic family. However I recently had a dispute with the mom about whether or not sex before marriage is a mortal sin. I have always had the understanding that it was, however Aude claims that it is not mortal but “only grave.” She pulled out the Catholic Catechism and looked it up and read the part out loud to me that talks about the three conditions of mortal sin (full knowledge, complete consent, grave matter). She pointed out that the matter is determined grave if it is directly pertaining to the 10 commandments, and sex before is no where mentioned in the 10 commandments, so it is perhaps a grave sin but not technically mortal. She says for sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin if it’s adultery, because that is directly against the 10 commandments. She says that charity can still exist in those who have sex without being married.
I was very confused! So I tried to look it up in the Catholic Catechism and I found nowhere that sex before marriage is a mortal sin! I only found that it is a grave sin which excludes one from receiving communion. So now I am wondering if there is a difference? I always equated grave sin as mortal sin. I always thought that the only moral cause for a person to be excluded from communion was if they were in the state of mortal sin!
Please clarify for me whether or not sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin or grave and if mortal & grave are the same thing. A reference from the Cathechism would be very helpful too so I can show Aude! Thank you!
 
For a sin to be a mortal sin, three requirements need to be met:
  1. That it be grave matter.
  2. That the person(s) involved be aware that it is grave matter.
  3. That the person(s) involved be making a free choice to go ahead and to the sin.
So, sex before marriage is grave matter, and a person knows this and participates anyway, it is a mortal sin. If they didn’t know it was grave matter (hard to imagine, but certainly possible), it isn’t necessarily a mortal sin.
 
filledesagesse said:
I was very confused! So I tried to look it up in the Catholic Catechism and I found nowhere that sex before marriage is a mortal sin! I only found that it is a grave sin which excludes one from receiving communion. So now I am wondering if there is a difference? I always equated grave sin as mortal sin. I always thought that the only moral cause for a person to be excluded from communion was if they were in the state of mortal sin!
Please clarify for me whether or not sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin or grave and if mortal & grave are the same thing. A reference from the Catechism would be very helpful too so I can show Aude! Thank you!
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Hello filledesagesse.

All sins of a sexual nature are considered grave (serious) but there are three conditions for a sin to be mortal.

  1. *]Grievous matter
    *]Sufficient reflection
    *]Full consent of the will

    So the difference is, sex outside of Marriage is Grave and becomes Mortal if one is aware of this which your friend obviously is.
    Another example is abortion. This is a very serious and grave sin but again, only Mortal once these 3 conditions apply.

    So any sin we have to Confess, is serious enough to separate us from God after our death. Venial sins only, are a lesser sin that does not result in a complete separation from God and eternal and a Confessional is not needed when we repent of these.

    Regarding the 10 Commandments. They were summed up by Jesus with these words:

    "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ The second is this, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    Fornication falls under the “You Shall Love Your Neighbor As Yourself” commandment which stems from the 4th Commandment to the 10th but especially within the 6th Commandment. “You shall not commit adultery”

    The Catechism describes ‘Fornication’ as one of the offenses against chastity.

    2353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravelycontrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children.

    2396 Among the sins gravely contrary to chastity are masturbation, fornication, pornography, and homosexual practices.

    *1385 … *Anyone conscious of a grave sin must receive the sacrament of Reconciliation before coming to communion.
 
What the above posters said.

Fornication is grave matter.

The culpability of the sin depends on if the other conditions are met.
 
Grave means mortal.
Grave always means mortal.
The only remaining question as to culpability is full consent and full knowledge.
To say that a sin is ‘merely’ grave but not mortal is just silly.
 
Newbie2 said:
For a sin to be a mortal sin, three requirements need to be met:
  1. That it be grave matter.
  2. That the person(s) involved be aware that it is grave matter.
  3. That the person(s) involved be making a free choice to go ahead and to the sin.
So, sex before marriage is grave matter, and a person knows this and participates anyway, it is a mortal sin. If they didn’t know it was grave matter (hard to imagine, but certainly possible), it isn’t necessarily a mortal sin.
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Newbie and the others have covered this clearly.

I’ll even tell you why. Many of society’s ills are caused by lack of responsibility. Sex, assuming it is between a man and a woman may produce a child. If the parties are unmarried, it should be noted that the highest incidences of poverty are from single-parent households.

Another good reason is the passing of diseases, some of them fatal these days.

But the main reason is lack of respect for self. If the person you are sleeping with does not care enough about you to proudly call you his wife, then why are you throwing pearls before swine by actions that can bring nothing positive to your life, but have the possibilities of many negative outcomes.

God isn’t saying people are bad for having sex before marriage, God is saying please love yourself more, because He does.
 
Thank you for the responses! I know about all the conditions that must be met to make a sin mortal and my sense was sex outside of marriage is material for mortal sin, but I did want sources so I could prove it. French women are intimidating to argue with! But now I have back-up so she can’t think I’m just a crazy prude from some ultra-conservative small town in the U.S.! Thanks especially for the Catechism quotes! Those will be handy!
 
Blossoming-----I did want to touch on your comment; you said that the main reason that it is such a grave sin is because of the lack of respect for self. I think I disagree a bit with that, although it is a good point too. I think the main reason is lack of respect for the other, for marriage/family, and for society.
 
filledesagesse said:
Thank you for the responses! I know about all the conditions that must be met to make a sin mortal and my sense was sex outside of marriage is material for mortal sin, but I did want sources so I could prove it. **French women are intimidating to argue with! **But now I have back-up so she can’t think I’m just a crazy prude from some ultra-conservative small town in the U.S.! Thanks especially for the Catechism quotes! Those will be handy!
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Truly! Ah well, to the French we are all crazy prudes anyway!
 
JimG said:
Grave means mortal.
Grave always means mortal.
The only remaining question as to culpability is full consent and full knowledge.
To say that a sin is ‘merely’ grave but not mortal is just silly.
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Actually, the common usage in the Church is that the seriousness of the sin is “grave” while “mortal” refers to the separation from the Almighty that the sin causes.

It’s a subtle distinction, not silly, methinks. To argue that serious (grave) sin is not grave, methinks IS silly. 😉
 
Sex before marriage is a sin. That should be enought to make anyone who loves God more than themselves not want to do it.

-Tim-
 
Newbie2 said:
Key word there is “should”. 😉

You are correct, of course. 🙂
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I think the key is “Love God more than themselves”. For me, sin is always rooted in self love.

I think there is too much focus on moral vs venial, to the point where some try to justify themselves.

-Tim-
 
Newbie2 said:
Actually, the common usage in the Church is that the seriousness of the sin is “grave” while “mortal” refers to the separation from the Almighty that the sin causes.

It’s a subtle distinction, not silly, methinks. To argue that serious (grave) sin is not grave, methinks IS silly. 😉
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You are correct. Grave means serious enough to forfeit heaven. It is the first condition for mortal sin. The other two are full knowledge and full consent. But it sounds like the woman making the distinction here means something like “oh, it’s grave but not mortal,” in the sense that it’s not really serious enough to separate you from God.

One could say of any sin that it’s grave but not mortal. Murder is always grave, but only mortal if the other two conditions are met. Adultery is grave but not mortal unless the other conditions are met. Serial rape is grave but not mortal unless the other two conditions are met. But I don’t see the French woman in this account saying of murder and adultery and rape that they are merely grave but not mortal.
 
JimG said:
You are correct. Grave means serious enough to forfeit heaven. It is the first condition for mortal sin. The other two are full knowledge and full consent. But it sounds like the woman making the distinction here means something like “oh, it’s grave but not mortal,” in the sense that it’s not really serious enough to separate you from God.

One could say of any sin that it’s grave but not mortal. Murder is always grave, but only mortal if the other two conditions are met. Adultery is grave but not mortal unless the other conditions are met. Serial rape is grave but not mortal unless the other two conditions are met. But I don’t see the French woman in this account saying of murder and adultery and rape that they are merely grave but not mortal.
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Not really any sin. There is a distinction between grave matter and lesser matter in non-mortal sin. If a guy cuts me off on the freeway and I think, “What a Jackhole” it isn’t grave matter.

Now in the sense that all sin is bad and to some degree is serious, yes, I’d agree. As well, I’d agree that some people can use semantics in order to justify their actions.
 
JimG said:
Grave means mortal.
Grave always means mortal.
The only remaining question as to culpability is full consent and full knowledge.
To say that a sin is ‘merely’ grave but not mortal is just silly.
Click to expand...
I do get what you mean and I wish I had worded my other post a bit better and used the words ‘grave matter’ instead of ’ grave sin’ as the exact usage can be very important here.

I’ll try to break it down as I see it:

Mortal Sin = 3 Requirements as stated earlier where the sinner is held responsible for his/her actions and has cut themselves off from God.

Grave Sin = 3 Requirements as stated in earlier posts where the sinner is held responsible and means the same as the above ‘Mortal Sin’ because of the word sin itself. Sin is implying that one is now partaking in an action that has ‘grave consequences’ is now responsible and since it is a ‘Grave sin’ then it is also ‘Mortal sin’ as well.

Grave Matter = The weight of a particular action on it’s own without an attachment to a particular sinner.

I hope this makes sense. 🙂
 
Yes, I agree with Des and N2’s posts above.

The OP said of the woman having this discussion: " She says for sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin if it’s adultery, because that is directly against the 10 commandments. She says that charity can still exist in those who have sex without being married."

But she’s confused, because sex outside of marriage is indeed considered to violate the commandments. I’m not sure what she means by the second sentence because an adulterer might also conclude that charity can still exist in one who has committed adultery. She was essentially trying to lessen the gravity of fornication.
 
filledesagesse said:
Hello,
I am a jeune fille au pair in France working for a wonderful young Catholic family. However I recently had a dispute with the mom about whether or not sex before marriage is a mortal sin. I have always had the understanding that it was, however Aude claims that it is not mortal but “only grave.” She pulled out the Catholic Catechism and looked it up and read the part out loud to me that talks about the three conditions of mortal sin (full knowledge, complete consent, grave matter). She pointed out that the matter is determined grave if it is directly pertaining to the 10 commandments, and sex before is no where mentioned in the 10 commandments, so it is perhaps a grave sin but not technically mortal. She says for sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin if it’s adultery, because that is directly against the 10 commandments. She says that charity can still exist in those who have sex without being married.
I was very confused! So I tried to look it up in the Catholic Catechism and I found nowhere that sex before marriage is a mortal sin! I only found that it is a grave sin which excludes one from receiving communion. So now I am wondering if there is a difference? I always equated grave sin as mortal sin. I always thought that the only moral cause for a person to be excluded from communion was if they were in the state of mortal sin!
Please clarify for me whether or not sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin or grave and if mortal & grave are the same thing. A reference from the Cathechism would be very helpful too so I can show Aude! Thank you!
Click to expand...
She is wrong about her reasoning. Sex prior to marriage is a grave offense. However if you are asking if this or that is a moral sin, you’re asking the wrong question. She is correct in pointing out the criteria for what makes an act mortal.
 
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