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Eucharisted
Guest
Let’s say a 20-year-old guy discovers, to his horror, that when he was born, his parents had changed his gender. Would he be obligated to stay a man, or could he change his gender back to woman?
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Leopard
Guest
I have only heard of one such situation. It was about a baby who had malformed genitals (and other complications of some internal organs) such that it was not clear whether this baby, when grown, would be able to function sexually as either a male or a female. The consensus of physicians at the time was that it would be easier to at least cosmetically correct the abnormalities, including re-routing the urinary system, etc., such that the child would function as a female rather than a male. As this child seemed not to have either functioning ovaries or testes, this would include hormone therapies as she reached adolescence and throughout her adult life. This was done.
Now, I don’t know this woman personally, so I don’t know if this was something she discovered about herself “to her horror” when she was twenty, but considering the extensive therapies she needed as she was growing up, I expect she knew this about herself from an early age as soon as she was old enough to understand. I don’t think she would consider herself obligated to return to her previous physical condition, but from what I have read of her she seems to be a well integrated person.
Now, I don’t know this woman personally, so I don’t know if this was something she discovered about herself “to her horror” when she was twenty, but considering the extensive therapies she needed as she was growing up, I expect she knew this about herself from an early age as soon as she was old enough to understand. I don’t think she would consider herself obligated to return to her previous physical condition, but from what I have read of her she seems to be a well integrated person.
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Shin
Guest
Whatever genetic gender the person is, that is the gender the person must be.
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Leopard
Guest
In general, yes, but it very rarely occurs that a “natural” unaltered man is found to have XX chromosomes or that a “natural” unaltered woman is found to have XY chromosomes. This is thought to be due to hormonal or chemical influences while that that child is developing in utero. I do not think such a person is required to reorient his or her sexual identity based on a factor that might never have been known without genetic screening.
Also, it sometimes happens that persons are found to have XXY or XYY chromosomes.
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Shin
Guest
I’m afraid I don’t understand the science well enough to answer when it gets that complicated.
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Leopard
Guest
Those exceptional cases are extremely rare.I’m afraid I don’t understand the science well enough to answer when it gets that complicated.
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graceandglory
Guest
If someone is 100% ambiguous, I’m not sure.
Most ambiguous cases are clearly, genetically, one gender or the other.
As a Catholic, it seems to be that you would be telling a lie with your body if you go on living as something OTHER THAN GOD CREATED.
Horrible things happen. That is a fact of nature AFTER THE FALL. But according to our faith, death, sickness, and disease are a result of our fall from grace. When we are resurrected with our heavenly bodies, when we are in heaven, there will be no more death or sadness, or sickess or disorders, we will all be perfected.
A person who has had a sex change, and then is converted to the Gospel, I would think, would be required to live as the person God created them to be. Not an AMBIGUOUS person, but as a **male or female. ** If they had a sex change that made them into someone other than God created them to be, … wow, so much pain…I can’t even imagine…it seems they should stop behaving as the false self and learn to be who God made them to be.
Clearly, some people are called from their birth to be celibate.
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graceandglory
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Leopard
Guest
I wasn’t talking about ambiguous cases in my second post. I was talking about babies that were born obviously male or female, who grew into apparently normal little boys or girls then into normal men or women, who are usually heterosexually oriented, meaning they are attracted to the sex that is opposite of their apparent physical sex, and who sometimes marry.
Then, it often turns out that they can not conceive children. Sometimes a fertility specialist will order a genetic analysis of the couple, and then it is discovered that the husband is an XX man or the wife is an XY woman.
These cases are very rare but have been recorded. In a case such as this, I don’t think such a man or woman is morally obligated to tear apart his or her marriage and family, be physically “corrected” to match his or her genes if no such correction had been thought medically necessary before the genetic analysis, or to try to re-orient himself or herself to an attitude that the person would formerly have considered homosexual.
As I said before, these cases are very rare, so I’m just being hypothetical as the OP has requested.
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Marycruz
Guest
There is no such thing as XX men and XY women, because it is the presence or absence of the Y chromosome that determines whether someone is a male of female. A normal male is XY, a normal female is XX.
A person with XXY will be a feminized male (small testicles, less fertile), and a person with XYY has the “supermale” syndrome (usually involves social and mental retardation). A person with XXX trisomy will seem to be a normal female.
As soon as you have a Y you are a man, if there is no Y you are a female (for human beings, it’s different for some other species).
A person with XXY will be a feminized male (small testicles, less fertile), and a person with XYY has the “supermale” syndrome (usually involves social and mental retardation). A person with XXX trisomy will seem to be a normal female.
As soon as you have a Y you are a man, if there is no Y you are a female (for human beings, it’s different for some other species).
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aspawloski4th
Guest
Not to be insulting, but baloney! there are XX men and XY women. Estimated to occur about 1/500.
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Marycruz
Guest
If you say so, I guess my biology teacher was wrong then 
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aspawloski4th
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Could be your biology teacher is using knowledge thats out dated. This area of biology new discoveries are made all the time. I have a friend who was an XX male and went through transnition to live as a female.If you say so, I guess my biology teacher was wrong then
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Marycruz
Guest
Ok, thanks for letting me know. I honestly didn’t think that was possible.
I honestly didn’t think that was possible.
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Leopard
Guest
In general this is correct, but it is a little bit oversimplified. What causes a very young embryo to begin to develop the physical characteristics of a male or a female is hormones, and those are usually determined by whether the embryo is XX or XY. But sometimes things don’t work as expected and the embryo develops sexual characteristics opposite of what would be expected.
Usually when this happens the effect is less than total and you get XX females with higher than usual testosterone and some more typically masculine characteristics, or XY males with higher than usual estrogen and some more typically feminine characteristics. Sometimes you get individuals with ambiguous sexual characteristics. But sometimes, very rarely, you get a total or nearly total reversal, with apparently normal males and females who just happen to have the opposite chromosomes than most other “normal” people. Such persons are usually sterile and it sometimes happens that only when a fertility expert is consulted that this condition is discovered. But it is not absolutely known that all such persons are always sterile, and some experts think that some such persons may be able to conceive and bear children so that their condition might never be discovered. If this is true, then the actual incidence of XX males or XY females might be higher than currently believed based on known reported cases.
Biology has more gray areas than most people realize.
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Socratic_Method
Guest
Yeah, I have a lot of questions regarding these sorts of situations as well. Sometimes it seems to fly in the face of Catholic teaching, or at least my atheist friend would like to think so. Since we derive so much moral teaching from gender, especially in the teaching on homosexuality, I’m wondering what the Church says about these sorts of situations.
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Zoe_Brain
Guest
There’s an extensive thread on this at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=299539 - "What is the Church’s position on the Intersexed and Transsexed? "
Basically, it doesn’t have one. That over-simplifies, but we have a canon lawyer’s opinion on that. Circumstances alter cases. They’re still working on the problem.
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Zoe_Brain
Guest
Contrary to popular (and uninformed) opinion, emphatically not an uncommon situation. As a lower bound, there would be 10,000 people in the USA today in that situation. I don’t mean “surgically altered shortly after birth”, I mean :surgically altered *the wrong way *shortly after birth. When they treat babies as “gender neutral”, they get it wrong 30% of the time. When they use the best tests on genes, on sexually-dimorphic neonatal responses etc they still get it wrong 10% of the time. It’s why IS (Intersexed) support groups very strongly advocate against any un-necessary surgical intervention until the child is grown up enough to tell us what sex they are.
I’m Intersexed myself, and one of the rarest and most spectacular conditions, not one of the common ones like this.
OK,on to the question at hand.
The answer is - is this person male or female? That can’t be changed, only the body can be altered. If it’s been altered the wrong way, then changing to the correct way is both medically and morally necessary.
So how do you know if they’re male or female? You ask them.
But… what about chromosomes? Sorry, unreliable. We’re all taught at school that men have 46xy chromosomes, women have 46xx chromosomes. And that’s true for 199 people out of 200. But men with de la Chapelle syndrome or CAH syndrome have 46xx chromosomes, and women with either Swyer or Complete AI syndrome have 46xy chromosomes. People with Kleinfelter syndrome, most commonly 47xxy chromosomes, usually look like slightly anomalous men. Some have become fathers (though it takes technical help). But some look like slightly anomalous women, and have given birth.Only 10% of 46xx people with CAH syndrome are men though, the rest are just women with somewhat masculinised genitalia.
Then there’s Turner syndrome - 45x females. And chimerae and mosaics, with multiple cell lines in their bodies. 46xx/46xy, 45x/46xx, 45x/46xy, 45xx/46xxy etc etc
What about bodily shape at birth? Also unreliable. Children with 46xy chromosomes and either 5ARD or 17BHDD syndromes will look female at birth, but will naturally masculinise later. Things internal become external, structures change shape…
All of this is delved into in great detail at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=299539
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