Sex-change vicar back in pulpit

[Mommyof02green]

The whole thing in my opinion is sad :

However, what I find amusing was this:

Ms Stone, who has been married twice and has a daughter, was dressed in purple robes and wore a pair of gold ear-rings

umm, Last Sunday my priest was dressed in PURPLE too!
And do you know that come THIS Sunday HE will be wearing PURPLE again!

I just thought it funny how the article mention it, as if the sex change had something to do with the COLOR that was worn.

I guess the person writing the article didn’t realize it’s ADVENT!

Now what are they going to think when priest across the country and world, will be wearing ROSE (PINK) on Dec. 17

 

[Dale_M]

We’re waiting with bated breath for someone to tell us of another plausible reason.

What I have read (and I can’t find the source) is that transsexuals seek sex change so they can function in society. Gender roles and expectations being very different for men and for women.

 

[Dale_M]

We’re waiting with bated breath for someone to tell us of another plausible reason.

What I have read (and I can’t find the source) is that transsexuals seek sex change so they can function in society. Gender roles and expectations being very different for men and for women.

 

[rpp]

Hey, thanks, I understood that it was an Anglican priest. But now the article has me playing “what-if” games. And your chromosome statement has given me another.

We know there is evidence of women who have the genotype XY on the 23rd pair. I recall hearing about this through some karotyping done on Olympic athletes in decades past, where they disqualified women who had been found to carry the Y chromosome. Evidently, they were phenotypically (although sterile) females because for some reason their bodies failed to kick out male levels of testosterone during early development.

What does the church have to say about the sex of these women? Are they women, because they would have mostly the appearance of women and would have been socialized with female gender roles, or are they men because they are genetically male? And if they are genetically male, does that make them ontologically male? Could they be ordained as priests?

I have heard the saqme story. The rest of the story was they were not actually born women. The athletes in question were from the former Soviet Bloc and were men who underwent homonal treatment so they could compete as women and bring back gold medals to prove how superieor atheistic communism was. The East Gemans in particular were found to be doing this in the 1972 and 1976 Summer Olympics.

 

[pathia]

I have heard the saqme story. The rest of the story was they were not actually born women. The athletes in question were from the former Soviet Bloc and were men who underwent homonal treatment so they could compete as women and bring back gold medals to prove how superieor atheistic communism was. The East Gemans in particular were found to be doing this in the 1972 and 1976 Summer Olympics.

That may be the case in that particular instance, but XY women and XX men can and do occur naturally.

XY women generally have CAIS, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. It’s a long standing rumor that Jamie Lee Curtis is one of these, but it’s never been confirmed or denied (all her children are adopted).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

XX men are much rarer, but it does happen.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

 

[Magster]

My understanding is that despite how cosmetically detailed a gender-transformation surgical procedure may be, it can never change one’s DNA which is assigned at the moment of conception.

 

[pathia]

My understanding is that despite how cosmetically detailed a gender-transformation surgical procedure may be, it can never change one’s DNA which is assigned at the moment of conception.

That’s quite true, however. We are taught in grade school that XY==Boy XX==Girl.

That’s not entirely true. Some men are XX, some women are XY. Some people have XXY, XXX, XYY and just about every combination you can imagine. (I’m a mosaic of XY/XXY/XX cells myself)

DNA can also change post conception. Likely I was conceived as XX or XY, and something went crazy. There’s no way to say which way I was conceived though.

 

[rpp]

That may be the case in that particular instance, but XY women and XX men can and do occur naturally.

XY women generally have CAIS, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. It’s a long standing rumor that Jamie Lee Curtis is one of these, but it’s never been confirmed or denied (all her children are adopted).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

XX men are much rarer, but it does happen.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome

Thank you for the information. However, Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source. Can you supply links to a legitimate source?

 

[pathia]

Thank you for the information. However, Wikipedia is a notoriously unreliable source. Can you supply links to a legitimate source?

I consider Wikipedia very reliable, it’s considered nearly as reliable as Britannica on most scientific issues (politics and other things I will agree that it’s unreliable and biased), but there are many other sources.

Intersexism (Used to be called hermaphroditism) has been known for millennium. We just understand the genetics and biological factors behind it better now.

I myself have XY, XXY and XX chromosomes inside of my body, it’s called mosaicism. There’s no telling what my chromosomes were supposed to be, because what happened when I was conceived is the sperm from my father didn’t form correctly and carried both X and Y genes with it when it fertilized mom’s egg, or at least that’s what they told me last. Every time I get some medical tests done I get another answer!

Here’s a bunch of links I got using Google. Use your own judgment on what’s legitimate or not, I tried to stay away from leftist things, though the NYT was somewhat unavoidable.

isna.org/
pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/spectrum.html
fathermag.com/206/intersex/
nytimes.com/2006/09/24/magazine/24intersexkids.html?ex=1316750400&en=11174796a1323948&ei=5088&partner
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_3_39/ai_94130313
apa.org/topics/intersx.html
msnbc.msn.com/id/6994580/
nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm
rch.org.au/publications/CAIS.html
geneclinics.org/profiles/androgen/details.html

 

[Gabriel_Gale]

Sex change operation is a misnomer. Sex neutralizing is a better term. Androgeny is usually a negation.

The hormonal therapy is also necessary and often not discussed… What I find interesting about the sex change issue is the lack of concern about the medical risks. Chronic estrogen therapy in men and women have several potential risks. Today, there was a story that breast cancer rates have decreased. Why? Decrease estrogen replacement in women. What are these men setting themselves up for? Hypotestosteronism also tends to cause lethargy. I don’t know how these men do after 10, 20 or 30 years of hormonal manipulation and no one is asking.

 

[Gabriel_Gale]

Surgical Sex

---

---

***Paul McHugh *******

Copyright (c) 2004 First Things 147 (November 2004): 34-38.

 

[pathia]

The hormonal therapy is also necessary and often not discussed… What I find interesting about the sex change issue is the lack of concern about the medical risks. Chronic estrogen therapy in men and women have several potential risks. Today, there was a story that breast cancer rates have decreased. Why? Decrease estrogen replacement in women. What are these men setting themselves up for? Hypotestosteronism also tends to cause lethargy. I don’t know how these men do after 10, 20 or 30 years of hormonal manipulation and no one is asking.

I’ve been on hormone ‘manipulators’ for over 10years myself and I’m perfectly healthy. My blood pressure is quite normal, my pulse at rest is in the high 40’s/lower 50’s as I am an avid runner and swimmer. Cholesterol is perfectly fine too. It isn’t without its risks, given my nature I could theoretically get breast, prostate, testicular AND ovarian cancer

However I never had a functioning hormone system, that likely is skewing my results. Drastically altering an existing system and making it perform like another system has to have consequences, though I know several transsexuals that are 30+ years after their surgery, none are any more unhealthy than others in their 60-70’s.

My non-altered state is pretty much the same as a transseuxal. My hormones are almost nil, I am neuter/androgynous in hormones so to speak without supplements, I needed them to complete puberty. I grew taller, but nothing else.

If I do not take them, I develop osteoporosis signs, and I’m only 26!

 

[Gabriel_Gale]

Pathia:

If I do not take them, I develop osteoporosis signs, and I’m only 26!

Do you take only estrogen or do you also take testosterone? Also, do you know if estrogen replacement is necessary for castrated males to prevent osteoporosis?

 

[Karianne]

“She” is not a “She” and never can be. That he willingly mutilated his body for personaly sexual gratification is a grave evil. Can you image accepting communion from his hands? Where have they been?

I am sorry, and I do not mean to offend Anglicans or Episcopaleans out there, but it seems to me that the Anglican Church has lost its way. While I suspect there have been some Catholic Priests who engaged in this same grave sin of self-mutalation (aka sex-change surgery or “gender reassignment”), they do not remain priests, and, I suspect, they may even have been excommiunicated. Even the ones who managed to stay out of the pokey would always be, at best laicized.

Obviously, there are some Anglicans and Episcopalians out there who are outraged, and quite rightly so. I would encourage you to consider that, while all episcopal communities have their faults, at least the Catholic Church has maintained a strick and unchanged moral standard. That many do not follow that standard is simply an expression of the fallibility of men. But to permite this, to tacitly endorse this is just wrong.

Even St. Augustine in the 5th century rebuked those who sought castration. This is not exactly a new sin.

One final point. This was a trerribly biased news story. After describing his welcome as “warm” it was very briefly mentioned that a parishoiner had to be escorted out because of an “outburst”. No other mention. Was it just shouted from the back of the church? (That is something typical hypersensitive liberals cannot tolerate.) Was it ongoing heckling? (Which admittedly has no place in church. Did the person just do something with their body like stand up or refuse communion or walk out? It did say they were escorted out, but that could mean someone just close4d the door behind them. What was the form of this “critical outburst”? That is hiddfen from the reader yet is actually a critical aspect to how well he can perform his ministry. Even the amputated description was couched in the proclamation of a succesful transformation from a man into an it.

I hear ya, but the fact is that some babies are apparently born with indeterminate genders and the doctors make the decisions as to what sex the child will be. And at time they decide wrong.
I know one transgendered person whose mother used drugs to be able to keep her pregnancy and this person grew up to be an eye surgeon. He had two children but always felt wrong somehow. He had the surgery to change to a woman and is now content.
I can’t imagine anyone going thru such surgery unless they are extremely unhappy.
Do you really consider it self mutilation when the person actually has good medical reasons for a reassignment?

 

[pathia]

Do you take only estrogen or do you also take testosterone? Also, do you know if estrogen replacement is necessary for castrated males to prevent osteoporosis?

I tried testosterone in my youth, and I became depressed, extremely suicidal (I tried three times). Now I take bio-identical estrogen and progesterone. If I take nothing, I tend to be extremely depressed and have almost no energy and my brain literally slows down. I also require 10+ hours a sleep a night to function properly, because I’m always so tired. I cannot build muscle mass at all.

One thing none of these studies have done are study the effects of bio-identical hormones. The hormones in Birth Control are not identical to the ones ovaries make. They are close enough that the body is tricked into thinking they are real. What I take is identical at the molecular level to what my body would make if it functioned correctly. It is still technically ‘synthetic’ as it is made in a lab, but in theory it should be more healthy, though it is a relatively new thing so no studies have been done yet.

If a man is castrated or suffers from hypogonadism, testosterone or light estrogen therapy is pretty much the best solution. Men can develop osteoporosis can and will develop it. Testosterone and Estrogen prevent bone loss. You need some or one or the other. That’s why many women after menopause need to watch themselves and take supplements and various other things.

For the record, women have testosterone and men have estrogen too. Both are necessary for both sexes.

For the record, all of this is self-educated, I’ve had to deal with these issues personally. I’m not a doctor, I’m just relating what I know from my own life experience and what my doctors have told me.

 

[Gabriel_Gale]

I tried testosterone in my youth, and I became depressed, extremely suicidal (I tried three times). Now I take bio-identical estrogen and progesterone. If I take nothing, I tend to be extremely depressed and have almost no energy and my brain literally slows down. I also require 10+ hours a sleep a night to function properly, because I’m always so tired. I cannot build muscle mass at all.

One thing none of these studies have done are study the effects of bio-identical hormones. The hormones in Birth Control are not identical to the ones ovaries make. They are close enough that the body is tricked into thinking they are real. What I take is identical at the molecular level to what my body would make if it functioned correctly. It is still technically ‘synthetic’ as it is made in a lab, but in theory it should be more healthy, though it is a relatively new thing so no studies have been done yet.

If a man is castrated or suffers from hypogonadism, testosterone or light estrogen therapy is pretty much the best solution. Men can develop osteoporosis can and will develop it. Testosterone and Estrogen prevent bone loss. You need some or one or the other. That’s why many women after menopause need to watch themselves and take supplements and various other things.

For the record, women have testosterone and men have estrogen too. Both are necessary for both sexes.

For the record, all of this is self-educated, I’ve had to deal with these issues personally. I’m not a doctor, I’m just relating what I know from my own life experience and what my doctors have told me.

How does the cost of the bio-identical compare to standard synthetic therapy?

Do you take any other hormonal supplements like oxytocin?

 

[pathia]

How does the cost of the bio-identical compare to standard synthetic therapy?

Do you take any other hormonal supplements like oxytocin?

Actually they’re cheaper, just not as well studied or known, so many doctors just sort of ‘stay the course’ with Premarin, which stands for PREgnant MARe uRINe. Not only is it unnatural, it’s made in fairly cruel circumstances.

Oxytocin has no value to me, as I do not have a uterus.

 

[Damascus]

I really could care less about how the sex change process goes, or what the details of it are. However, I am thinking that this is a nail in the coffin for them in regard to attempts at ecumenical dialoge.

Can you imagine Holy Father’s response to this?

I am kinda glad it happened. The Rott is not gonna be impressed.

 

[pathia]

I really could care less about how the sex change process goes, or what the details of it are. However, I am thinking that this is a nail in the coffin for them in regard to attempts at ecumenical dialoge.

Can you imagine Holy Father’s response to this?

I am kinda glad it happened. The Rott is not gonna be impressed.

The RCC’s stance on transsexuals is that transsexuality does not exist, and that those suffering from it are mentally insane instead.

Stances differ pretty far indeed.

 

[Magster]

This discussion is very informative and enlightening - I had no idea how many variations were possible from birth, and I can understand how one could be wrongly assigned a gender based on one of the discussed conditions, thereby necessitating the need from some hormonal or other therapy later in life when it becomes more evident that the initial decision was incorrect. Perhaps this is why someone like Pathia has not experience negative side effects from long-term hormone therapy.

However, doesn’t such a situation significantly differ from one in which a person is from birth, unambiguously, male or female, without any chromosonal or hormonal abnormality, and then decides to attempt to undergo a gender change? It seems in the latter situation, such surgical procedure is merely mutilation.

I also would be concerned that if medicine fails to recognize such a distinction, it may actually make it more difficult for someone in a situation like Pathia to find an actual cure or correction - science and medicine may just decide that any issues can be superficially corrected with gender reassignment surgery, when a more complete solution may exist, but its discovery not pursued.