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zemi
Guest
I do not doubt it. But where do we know it from? Hm, and wouldn’t that mean that not really everything was “good” in the beginning (i.e perfect)? Beatific vision is surely the most “perfect” state…
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Ghosty
Guest
We know it because of what is entailed in the Beatific Vision, and the implications of Falling from it. The Beatific Vision is a complete vision of God “as He is”, a total conformity of the mind and will to God’s. If our mind and will is conformed to God, we can’t choose against God by definition.
Furthermore, if we COULD choose against God while possessing the Beatific Vision, then there is no security in Heaven. Anyone who is in Heaven might fall again, unless we assume that their natural capacity for free will is taken away, which would mean we are not perfected in Heaven, but made less perfect.
As for everything being “very good” in Paradise, that refers to natural perfection, not to the supernatural perfection of possessing God in Glory. Everything worked exactly as it should, which does mean that humans, by Grace, had the option of turning to God and “consummating” their relationship with Him in Glory. Humans went the other way, however, turning to natural things, and lost the Grace and the supernatural inheritance of Glory that was coming. God, however, had other plans for how to bring humans to Glory, and of course we know that story very well.
Peace and God bless!
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Consider a state often referred to as “ecstasy”. For example, Father Solanus Casey, now up for canonization, has been reported to have been witnessed before the Blessed Sacrament IN A STATE OF ECSTASY.
So, what if, in Heaven, we will all be in a state of ecstasy, Divinely “provided”, that is so powerful, that no “human” sexual experience could come to within one millionth of the power of a Divine ecstasy experience.
What if … the Divine ecstasy went to the individual cellular level, … every cell of the body … and CONTINUOUSLY … WITHOUT ENDING … instead of the “limited” physical and time nature of a human sexual experience…
So, what if, in Heaven, we will all be in a state of ecstasy, Divinely “provided”, that is so powerful, that no “human” sexual experience could come to within one millionth of the power of a Divine ecstasy experience.
What if … the Divine ecstasy went to the individual cellular level, … every cell of the body … and CONTINUOUSLY … WITHOUT ENDING … instead of the “limited” physical and time nature of a human sexual experience…
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Mannyfit75
Guest
Having in sex in heaven doesn’t make sense to me. For one, you are there worshipping God for all eternity. Two, one to have sex you need to have a body. When we die, and if we die in the state of grace, our spirits will be in heaven.
Not only will we be worshipping but we would be also interacting with other saints. I have no doubt in my mind that saints in heaven would be looking down upon us.
There are only two individuals with bodies in heaven. Mary, and Jesus.
Everyone else is just spirit.
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teachccd
Guest
It goes back to this analogy. When one is a child, a chocolate bar is an immense pleasure. If you ask a child ,even during his favorite T.V. show, if he would like a chocolate bar he would most certainly say yes. The taste of chocolate is an ultimate pleasure and might even be a temptation that could render consequences. Now when that child is an adult and experiences the pleasure of sex, that chocolate bar becomes secondary. I would highly doubt that if that same person were asked in the middle of making love if he would like a chocolate bar that he would get up move to the kitchen and enjoy the candy.
So it is in heaven. We are that child and sex is that chocolate bar. What heaven has in store may be so intense that sex would only get in the way… My 2 cents…teachccd
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teachccd
Guest
Yes but we will be resurrected in the body and anatomically we should be the same as we are now. But just as we don’t need our tonsils, in heaven we may not need our genitals. Who knows??
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mchium
Guest
Hey - thanks! for the link. I enjoyed the article.**Simply put - do you think there will be sex in heaven? **
Those of you who know Peter Kreeft perhaps know what he has to say about it. If you want some futher insights from him, look first at his article at:
peterkreeft.com/topics/sex-in-heaven.htm
Thank you for your comments
Even without it, tho, if we know the 2 purposes of the marital act (s-e-x
) - i.e. unitive and procreative…welllllll…will we have need of either in heaven? Don’t think so - we can hardly BE more ‘united’ than in heaven and we won’t be procreating there, far as I know.But if all else fails…Jesus said there would be no marrying or giving in marriage in heaven…so, no one will have a ‘right’ to the ‘marital’ act…
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Some eloquent preachers have stated that if Heaven is boring i.e., e.g., sitting around all day singing], then Heaven would have no appeal for them.
Soooo, Heaven must be more than chocolate ice cream or enjoying the view. Or singing. Much much more.
Unfortunately, very few people have had a beatific vision. St. Thomas Aquinas DID have a beatific vision and HE IMMEDIATELY BEGAN GETTING RID OF HIS FABULOUS WRITING, BECAUSE HE SAID IT WAS “LIKE STRAW”.
For someone as brilliant and as priviliged (was wtnessed to have been levitated in front of a large Crucifix), then the Beatific Vision, must have been quite overwhelming.
What would constitute something totally overwhelming … on a continuous basis … for humans?
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Sixtus
Guest
Al Maseti posted:
That is absurd. Everybody knows we do not eat chocolate ice cream in Heaven, we just sit around all day playing a harp while floating on a cloud! What school did you go to?
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zemi
Guest
Mannyfit75… :bigyikes: :bigyikes: :bigyikes:
Where do you have that from? That there only 2 bodies in heaven?!
What about the CCC?!!!
990 The term “flesh” refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality. The “resurrection of the flesh” (the literal formulation of the Apostles’ Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our “mortal body” will come to life again.(Rom 8,11)
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rwoehmke
Guest
Lazurus was resucitated. He had to die again. Jesus was resurrected, he was not just resucitated. His body was a Glorified Body which I think is not quite the same as the same old body. What are the abilities and needs of a Glorified body. We do know from the Scriptures a few things like the ability to pass through walls, eat a bit of fish, be bi-located. There’s an awful lot we can speculate about and it is fun, but after all is said and done it is still speculation. I also can’t help but recall that someone once said the most important sex organ is the brain(mind). We are finding out that male and female brains are quite different.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Wel …, there are some REALLY INTERESTING NEW FLAVORS OF CHOCOLATE ICE CREAM!!!Al Maseti posted:
That is absurd. Everybody knows we do not eat chocolate ice cream in Heaven, we just sit around all day playing a harp while floating on a cloud! What school did you go to?
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Hellisreal
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kleary
Guest
I wanna puke- that is one of many reasons why I do not attend my local parish anymore- because of the MODERNIST heresy that denies the miracles of Jesus Christ.
He himself said this error- “Lazarus was resucitated” and not raised from the dead.
Lazarus was in the tomb for days, Jesus even made it to be so in order to PROVE Lazararus was DEAD.
Do not let the modernists deceive you! Lazarus was RAISED FROM THE DEAD. To imply “resucitated” can deceive many people into believing that Jesus did not raise him from the dead.
Ken
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kleary
Guest
And as far as “sex in heaven”…
Oh God… not again… I am 41 now, married with 3 kids- using NFP (took us three kids to learn NFP even after attending classes).
Redefining the sexual act as the renewal of the marital covenant- resulting in offspring… that remains to be seen.
Then again, if you use Artificial Contraception in your marriage I can see how you would even think for an instant that you can have sex in heaven. I mean you will not even be maried anymore if you get there and you will not even be able to get married if you are there- for you will NO LONGER HAVE THE NEED FOR IT ANYMORE.
Ken
Oh God… not again… I am 41 now, married with 3 kids- using NFP (took us three kids to learn NFP even after attending classes).
Redefining the sexual act as the renewal of the marital covenant- resulting in offspring… that remains to be seen.
Then again, if you use Artificial Contraception in your marriage I can see how you would even think for an instant that you can have sex in heaven. I mean you will not even be maried anymore if you get there and you will not even be able to get married if you are there- for you will NO LONGER HAVE THE NEED FOR IT ANYMORE.
Ken
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Mijoy2
Guest
I think what Kreeft was getting at is that there will be ways, beyond our current ability to understand, that we enjoy our sexuality, our expressions of love, that surpasses our understanding of “enjoyment of sex” presently, on earth.
Was it Kreeft or Lewis (or maybe both) who makes the comparison of a childs incapability of understanding the pleasures of sex and would elevate the pleasures of candy above it?
What we enjoy as “sex” on earth will be surpassed in heaven in the way a childs understanding of pleasure of candy is surpassed by the pleasure of sex when he matures.
I don’t know if I buy it, but it sounds good to me.
Was it Kreeft or Lewis (or maybe both) who makes the comparison of a childs incapability of understanding the pleasures of sex and would elevate the pleasures of candy above it?
What we enjoy as “sex” on earth will be surpassed in heaven in the way a childs understanding of pleasure of candy is surpassed by the pleasure of sex when he matures.
I don’t know if I buy it, but it sounds good to me.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
The only two bodies in heaven are Jesus and Mary. Mmph, make that 2 more bodies, there Elijah and Enoch. Four persons have a body in heaven, Jesus (ascended into heaven body and soul, Mary assumed into heaven body and soul, Enoch bodily assumed into heaven without dying, and Elijah assumed into heaven fiery chariot.
At the current moment, there are only 4 bodies. When the day of the resurrection come, all who live in righteousness will be have glorified bodies.
I don’t think sex would be in the minds of saints. I do thing the saints are aware what they do. They not only pray but converse with saints and angels.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
Maybe Moses???
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Odell
Guest
I have not read all the post but.
I think Christipher West touches on this although I do not remember it in good detail. But ill try anyway.
Marriage and the sexual union is supposed to point us to heaven. Now I cant remember the theological reasons behind that if anyone can help me here.
But if marriage and sex points us to heaven and helps to get us there. why then will we need to be married to one another and have sex with one another, if we are already there?
I think Christipher West touches on this although I do not remember it in good detail. But ill try anyway.
Marriage and the sexual union is supposed to point us to heaven. Now I cant remember the theological reasons behind that if anyone can help me here.
But if marriage and sex points us to heaven and helps to get us there. why then will we need to be married to one another and have sex with one another, if we are already there?
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zemi
Guest
Thx, btw, that was in a nutshell the point of all the posts
I was just speculating if a “better version” couldn’t be there… but I agree it is a kind of “pointer” to something far more better
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