Sex Is Everywhere at Work

[philippaul]

Thank God we have Christians like you who are in places like this and who really contemplate these things fully. You are very sincere and non-judgemental from the sound of your note!

I believe you are in a position to help people become better. If you can stand it, stay there and be light for others. If you know this is not for you, pray for another job to come along (and actively look for other work when you have time), do the best you can there until something better comes along.

If you get let go because you did what you felt was the right thing then count it a blessing. I know I can 't speak for the Lord but I believe if this happens, He has something for you that is even better for you and for His glory.

Peace and blessings to you JackiRD!!

 

[JohnCS]

If this logic were right, there would be a huge gap in morals between atheists and believers. From what I have seen myself, I cannot see a gap at all. Do none of you feel compassion? Do none of you feel bad for people? Do none of you feel good when you help someone? Is everything you do to please God, or is it to help your fellow man?

Not really, whether we believe in God or not does not determine whether or not we were created by God. When God created us he wrote morality on our hearts. Just because you do not believe in him does not mean that you do not have the same morals placed in you. So by his logic there should be no gap between morals of athiests and Christians. We are all God children, believers or not.

 

[hellopeople]

Not really, whether we believe in God or not does not determine whether or not we were created by God. When God created us he wrote morality on our hearts. Just because you do not believe in him does not mean that you do not have the same morals placed in you. So by his logic there should be no gap between morals of athiests and Christians. We are all God children, believers or not.

I can accept this argument. I do not know if it is true or not though (I personally am a believer in God).

 

[kage_ar]

How do you know that the Almighty wouldn’t put people like the OP in certain employment situations in order to evangelize to his or her co-workers?

It is the sin of scandal for a Catholic to work in such a place. Ask Fr Serpa in the AAA area.

 

[camerong]

EMPATHY. I don’t like to be hurt by others, so why would it be OK for me to hurt others but expect differently in return? You don’t have to believe in God to be a good person.

So morality to you is only treating others nicely with the idea that they will treat you nicely? Simply a social contract of sorts? I doubt you really think that. Imagine that I cheat on a test, but don’t feel bad about it at all. I should still admit that, shouldn’t I? It would be wrong to not admit it, even though this particular wrong does not hurt me or anyone else.

What do you mean atheists obey an absolute power?

You would admit, I’m sure, that some things are wrong not because they hurt others or ourselves but because they violate higher ideals of right or wrong. For another example, let’s imagine a genius sociopath, who could cheat on his wife without personally feeling hurt by it, and without her ever finding out, and without her ever being hurt by it (assume these to be true). It would still be wrong for him to cheat on his wife, not because of any social contract or harm caused by the act, but because it is simply wrong to cheat on one’s spouse. That is the absolute power that all–atheists and theists–recognize and obey.

Let me reiterate, I don’t think theists and atheists differ in terms of acting morally. I never said they did. The difference is that atheists cannot justify purely moral actions, because they deny anything other than the material world, and morality is necessarily different than material world. If we are just bunches of atoms moving about, as (materialist) atheists insist, then there is no way no for certain movements to be more morally right than others. Thus, atheists agree that morality exists in some form, but at the same time their belief structures are incompatible with morality.

 

[hellopeople]

So morality to you is only treating others nicely with the idea that they will treat you nicely? Simply a social contract of sorts? I doubt you really think that. Imagine that I cheat on a test, but don’t feel bad about it at all. I should still admit that, shouldn’t I? It would be wrong to not admit it, even though this particular wrong does not hurt me or anyone else.

I wouldn’t say that it is only so people will treat you well back. It is because you don’t have to believe in God to be compassionate or empathetic. Bill Gates is an atheist and he gives tons of money to charity. Its not like the charities are going to be nice to him or something because of it. You could say that it is a ploy so more people are going to buy his products, but do you really think anyone is going to say “hey, I heard bill gates doesn’t donate enough to charity…I’m going to buy a mac.” Probably not. As for the cheating, I don’t think there is much of a problem with it. It might be dishonest but I don’t think it is a bad thing to do. As you said it doesn’t hurt anyone, and to be honest that IS my basis for morality.

You would admit, I’m sure, that some things are wrong not because they hurt others or ourselves but because they violate higher ideals of right or wrong. For another example, let’s imagine a genius sociopath, who could cheat on his wife without personally feeling hurt by it, and without her ever finding out, and without her ever being hurt by it (assume these to be true). It would still be wrong for him to cheat on his wife, not because of any social contract or harm caused by the act, but because it is simply wrong to cheat on one’s spouse. That is the absolute power that all–atheists and theists–recognize and obey.

I agree with this to some extent. But these basic morals aren’t completely universal. There are many people that would say “well, if she doesn’t find out, what is the harm?” Your argument for God being behind morality takes a serious blow when you consider that morality is far from standard. This is why there are philosophical ethics courses in college. There are many situations that are not black and white.

Let me reiterate, I don’t think theists and atheists differ in terms of acting morally. I never said they did. The difference is that atheists cannot justify purely moral actions, because they deny anything other than the material world, and morality is necessarily different than material world. If we are just bunches of atoms moving about, as (materialist) atheists insist, then there is no way no for certain movements to be more morally right than others. Thus, atheists agree that morality exists in some form, but at the same time their belief structures are incompatible with morality.

I disagree with this completely. First of all, morality is not universal. There are many people that are basically free of guilt and do whatever they think will get them ahead…stepping on anyone in their path. Why do these people not have this universal morality?

Morality, in my opinon, has a lot to do with how one was brought up. If parents and role models teach a child to be nice and compassionate, that is usually how they turn out. And it is EASY for atheists to justify purely moral actions. Empathy. They think “hey, if I was in this person’s position, how would I want to be treated?” Our own feelings, and knowing how great it is to feel happy and not sad, are a great motivation for moral actions. Even if these actions are some what superficial, because people end up feeling good about themselves because they helped someone…that is another way that atheists justify moral acts.

So, how do you explain your completely moral acts? You do it because God exists? That doesn’t really make too much sense to be honest.

 

[Newbie2]

It is the sin of scandal for a Catholic to work in such a place. Ask Fr Serpa in the AAA area.

I don’t understand the OP to be in such a situation as Fr. Serpa would object to: “I am a junior in college and I work at our campus’ Center for Health and Well-Being. This center includes Health Service…”

Now perhaps I misunderstand, but it seems like there are services available there that there is no moral difficulty with. I would understand and agree with you that working in an abortion clinic could certainly cause scandal, but I have a hard time agreeing with you about the OP. Seems like if we defined scandal as the OP’s situation, then a Catholic working in admissions as a clerk in a hospital that provided abortions would be scandalous as well, no?

 

[camerong]

I wouldn’t say that it is only so people will treat you well back. It is because you don’t have to believe in God to be compassionate or empathetic. Bill Gates is an atheist and he gives tons of money to charity. Its not like the charities are going to be nice to him or something because of it. You could say that it is a ploy so more people are going to buy his products, but do you really think anyone is going to say “hey, I heard bill gates doesn’t donate enough to charity…I’m going to buy a mac.” Probably not. As for the cheating, I don’t think there is much of a problem with it. It might be dishonest but I don’t think it is a bad thing to do. As you said it doesn’t hurt anyone, and to be honest that IS my basis for morality.

I agree with this to some extent. But these basic morals aren’t completely universal. There are many people that would say “well, if she doesn’t find out, what is the harm?” Your argument for God being behind morality takes a serious blow when you consider that morality is far from standard. This is why there are philosophical ethics courses in college. There are many situations that are not black and white.

I disagree with this completely. First of all, morality is not universal. There are many people that are basically free of guilt and do whatever they think will get them ahead…stepping on anyone in their path. Why do these people not have this universal morality?

Morality, in my opinon, has a lot to do with how one was brought up. If parents and role models teach a child to be nice and compassionate, that is usually how they turn out. And it is EASY for atheists to justify purely moral actions. Empathy. They think “hey, if I was in this person’s position, how would I want to be treated?” Our own feelings, and knowing how great it is to feel happy and not sad, are a great motivation for moral actions. Even if these actions are some what superficial, because people end up feeling good about themselves because they helped someone…that is another way that atheists justify moral acts.

So, how do you explain your completely moral acts? You do it because God exists? That doesn’t really make too much sense to be honest.

I think this is an interesting topic, so I have started a new thread in this forum entitled “Is Morality Subjective?” I would love to continue our discussing there instead of further taking this thread off-topic. Would you please visit it and see if I have correctly understood and restated your arguments?

 

[crazzeto]

Just be respectful, and make sure you make it clear these are your personal beliefs. Your boss should be fine with it, if she isn’t… Then maybe you’re not working at the right place… of course, maybe that’s just an axiom… Ultimatly you’re still going to be faced with the fact that you’re working in an orginization which is, essentally, promoting premarital sexuality.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

this is a job, and it REQUIRES giving out/condoning birth control as an option. You cannot judge people like that if you work in a health environment. You can stand outside, as a protestor, but you cannot say to someone who has asked for contraception ‘no, I won’t give it to you, it’s against my belief’ - it is a service the business offers.

This statement could be correct or not, depending on the employer, as I will explain.

CONSCIENCE PROTECTION LAWS

Federal and state government employers have conscience protection laws in place. Jacki, if this is a state college where you work, there are specific laws in place to protect you. As a healthcare worker, you can deny participating in all of this - condoms, birth control pills, referral to abortions, producing and distributing information, literature, and products that are against your moral beliefs, all of that. And if later on, say you start working for the Veterans Administration Healthcare system, which is a federal employer, again you are guaranteed by law not to be required to dispense condoms, birth control pills, abortive drugs, drugs for euthanasia/assisted suicide, perform abortions, kill people by euthanasia/assisted suicide, give mental health/psychology/psychiatry advice condoning sexually immoral (promiscuous - premarital/extramarital sex, homosexual etc) behavior, or give referrals to any of these. Your right to deny giving referrals means that, while politely denying for example to perform an abortion or advise an LGBT person in a way that approves of his/her homosexual lifestyle, nobody can even expect you to say, “however if you need an abortion, here’s the address of the nearest abortion clinic where you can obtain an abortion”, or “even though it’s against my beliefs to advise you to continue in your homosexual behavior, here’s the address and phone number of another mental health professional who agrees with the LGBT lifestyle and can treat you in a way that affirms this lifestyle”. You can simply refuse to get involved in any of that, by law.

If it’s a private employer, they set their own policies. WalMart and Sam’s Club were founded by a great Christian named Samuel Walton, and had a firm policy not to sell, for example, any music CDs or movies that are immoral, have foul language, etc. I don’t know about their pharmacies, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Sam Walton chose not to carry and sell any condoms and birth control pills in WalMart and Sam’s Club pharmacies. Now, since Sam Walton deceased a few years ago, I’m not sure if the enterprises started by him continued in their upright Christian tradition.

But if someone seeks employment at a gay bar or strip-tease club - well, those private employers may specifically expect their employees to do immoral things for their salary.

With a private college or university, my instinct tells me that it’s up for negotiation. You should simply and clearly state, “this is what I can and this is what I cannot (am unwilling to) do as an employee”, and then your prospective employer may decide to employ you, or seek someone else for the job.

 

[camerong]

This statement could be correct or not, depending on the employer, as I will explain.

CONSCIENCE PROTECTION LAWS

Federal and state government employers have conscience protection laws in place. Jacki, if this is a state college where you work, there are specific laws in place to protect you. As a healthcare worker, you can deny participating in all of this - condoms, birth control pills, referral to abortions, producing and distributing information, literature, and products that are against your moral beliefs, all of that. And if later on, say you start working for the Veterans Administration Healthcare system, which is a federal employer, again you are guaranteed by law not to be required to dispense condoms, birth control pills, abortive drugs, drugs for euthanasia/assisted suicide, perform abortions, kill people by euthanasia/assisted suicide, give mental health/psychology/psychiatry advice condoning sexually immoral (promiscuous - premarital/extramarital sex, homosexual etc) behavior, or give referrals to any of these. Your right to deny giving referrals means that, while politely denying for example to perform an abortion or advise an LGBT person in a way that approves of his/her homosexual lifestyle, nobody can even expect you to say, “however if you need an abortion, here’s the address of the nearest abortion clinic where you can obtain an abortion”, or “even though it’s against my beliefs to advise you to continue in your homosexual behavior, here’s the address and phone number of another mental health professional who agrees with the LGBT lifestyle and can treat you in a way that affirms this lifestyle”. You can simply refuse to get involved in any of that, by law.

If it’s a private employer, they set their own policies. WalMart and Sam’s Club were founded by a great Christian named Samuel Walton, and had a firm policy not to sell, for example, any music CDs or movies that are immoral, have foul language, etc. I don’t know about their pharmacies, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Sam Walton chose not to carry and sell any condoms and birth control pills in WalMart and Sam’s Club pharmacies. Now, since Sam Walton deceased a few years ago, I’m not sure if the enterprises started by him continued in their upright Christian tradition.

But if someone seeks employment at a gay bar or strip-tease club - well, those private employers may specifically expect their employees to do immoral things for their salary.

With a private college or university, my instinct tells me that it’s up for negotiation. You should simply and clearly state, “this is what I can and this is what I cannot (am unwilling to) do as an employee”, and then your prospective employer may decide to employ you, or seek someone else for the job.

Let me add that if you care much about keeping your job, I would consult an attorney before taking any steps that may jeopardize your position.