Sex/marriage question

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ncstevem

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I had a friend ask me a question and I directed him to speak to his priest. I think he may have been a little embarrassed to approach his priest about this - not sure why. Anyway I thought I’d ask here because I honestly didn’t know the answer.

His wife was directed by her doctor to avoid conceiving for the next few months because of a medical condition which means no intercourse because her period is irregular right now.

Does the Church permit any sexual contact (within a marriage) outside of intercourse that would allow a male to reach climax?
 
ncstevem said:
I had a friend ask me a question and I directed him to speak to his priest. I think he may have been a little embarrassed to approach his priest about this - not sure why. Anyway I thought I’d ask here because I honestly didn’t know the answer.

His wife was directed by her doctor to avoid conceiving for the next few months because of a medical condition which means no intercourse because her period is irregular right now.

Does the Church permit any sexual contact (within a marriage) outside of intercourse that would allow a male to reach climax?
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No. To be moral, each and every sexual act must be unitive, procreative, marital.

Pope Paul VI: “The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act. The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman.”
Humanae Vitae, n. 11-12.
 
ncstevem said:
His wife was directed by her doctor to avoid conceiving for the next few months because of a medical condition which means no intercourse because her period is irregular right now.
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Sorry to hear of your friend’s situation. I can’t offer any advice myself, but I believe there are several threads here on CAF that contain advice on how to handle Natural Family Planning despite irregular periods.
 
i am NOT an expert here… but i seem to recall it was “yes, but”.

“as long as the reason for doing so is in keeping with the teachings of the church”

ie, you are not trying to avoid having children “forever”, it is not for selfish reasons (a doctor saying dont get pregnant is not a selfish reason to avoid children right now) and it is to keep the marriage bond intact during a time when you cannot have sex

now i could be very badly mistaken as i said i am NO theologian.
this frankly sounds like one of those things where you either need to consult someone who is an expert… or you need to look deeply at your MOTIVES, and decide if they fit the rules of
“maintaining marriage”
“safeguarding a REAL health issue” (not just selfish desire)
 
fabricdragon said:
i am NOT an expert here… but i seem to recall it was “yes, but”.

“as long as the reason for doing so is in keeping with the teachings of the church”

ie, you are not trying to avoid having children “forever”, it is not for selfish reasons (a doctor saying dont get pregnant is not a selfish reason to avoid children right now) and it is to keep the marriage bond intact during a time when you cannot have sex

now i could be very badly mistaken as i said i am NO theologian.
this frankly sounds like one of those things where you either need to consult someone who is an expert… or you need to look deeply at your MOTIVES, and decide if they fit the rules of
“maintaining marriage”
“safeguarding a REAL health issue” (not just selfish desire)
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The opinion expressed in the quote above has been condemned by the Magisterium. See Humanae Vitae, n. 11-12.

Also See Veritatis Splendor: “In point of fact, the morality of human acts is not deduced only from one’s intention, orientation or fundamental option, understood as an intention devoid of a clearly determined binding content or as an intention with no corresponding positive effort to fulfil the different obligations of the moral life. Judgments about morality cannot be made without taking into consideration whether or not the deliberate choice of a specific kind of behaviour is in conformity with the dignity and integral vocation of the human person.” (n. 67)
and
“The rational ordering of the human act to the good in its truth and the voluntary pursuit of that good, known by reason, constitute morality. Hence human activity cannot be judged as morally good merely because it is a means for attaining one or another of its goals, or simply because the subject’s intention is good.” (n. 72).

A good intention alone is not sufficient for any act to be moral.

All non-procreative sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.
All non-unitive sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.
All non-marital sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.
 
No. Such would be grave matter.

However – NFP (natural family planning) can be used to avoid fertile times for a serious reason. But sometimes it is even the case that one simply must obstain entirely from marital relation for medical reasons.
 
Ron_Conte said:
All non-procreative sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.
All non-unitive sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.
All non-marital sexual acts are intrinsically evil and always gravely immoral.
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I don’t presume to be able to comment on the moral and theological aspects of this discussion, so I won’t try.

My one tiny contribution, however, might be my brief testimony about the positive inspiration that this thread provided to my spiritual life this afternoon – I spent several minutes in deep and profoundly heartfelt prayer, thanking God for giving us the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
 
I second the NFP suggestion. I do not understand much about NFP yet, but I would recommend the couple contacting a NFP counselor. As I understand it, there are times of the month where it is pretty much certain the couple will not conceive.

Otherwise, perhaps the couple can think of this period as a time of fasting (of sorts) for prayer and reflection. Easier said than done, of course…
 
I had a medical condition also and my doctor said to abstain from sex for 3 months. My dh is not Christian so I was really worried. I talked to two different priests. The first one said it was okay for the good of the marriage but I was skeptical because I remembered the Church saying that you can never end a sexual act without the possibility of procreation. I then asked my former pastor, who I knew was very faithful to all the teachings of the Church. I told him my situation and he replied, “You can do this. Please know that my prayers are with you and your husband”.
 
onmyknees said:
I had a medical condition also and my doctor said to abstain from sex for 3 months. My dh is not Christian so I was really worried. I talked to two different priests. The first one said it was okay for the good of the marriage but I was skeptical because I remembered the Church saying that you can never end a sexual act without the possibility of procreation. I then asked my former pastor, who I knew was very faithful to all the teachings of the Church. I told him my situation and he replied, “You can do this. Please know that my prayers are with you and your husband”.
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You got really bad advice. Your husband could not hold out for 3 lousy months for the good of your health? So sad. Marriage is about sacrifice. The man especially is to model the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. So , very sad. You missed an opportunity for him to experience a little part of what it does mean to be a loving christian. For him to grow in love and service to you.
 
Where does the MD get his authority to say if you can or cannot have sex?

Another point, moral law, and therefore sin, does not change over time. What is sinful in 546 AD is sinful today. Now I am talking about what is truly sinful, not necessarily what anybody thinks is sinful at the time. So, if you go back in time a little more, you’ll discover that God’s cure to sexual frustration, or lack of enough sex, was to have sex whenever you wanted to.

So, I question this, God wants us to have sex. Doctor says no. Hubby/wife says yes. What the doctor says in not a sure thing. You can have sex and not get pregnant, happens all the time, and the people don’t use anything to prevent it.

So is the sin in believing the doctor and not following the mandates of the Bible concerning sex? It does pretty much say in the Bible not to withhold sex. So to all of you that say it is ok to withhold sex, including the Church by the way, think about it.

The Church does it by supporting the idea of no sex, no babies. What if it is God’s plan that you can have all the sex you want and God will manage the baby part? Oh, but that takes faith and trust. Lets face it, for a long time that was the way it worked.
 
Larry, there are many reasons why a woman would need to abstain from sexual intercourse for perids at a time. One is post partum in order to heal and avoid infection, another is post miscarriage, same reason and post surgery. Also if a woman has an infection it needs to heal.

Only a pretty selfish husband would not understand these scenarios.
 
I think onmyknees got good advice from the second priest. I read it as him saying “You can abstain! You will have the grace you need.” We need more heroic virtue in the world. More people who actually encourage us to do the right thing, and more people who actually do the right thing so that we can know that someone else actually did it.
 
EvelynEVF said:
I think onmyknees got good advice from the second priest. I read it as him saying “You can abstain! You will have the grace you need.” We need more heroic virtue in the world. More people who actually encourage us to do the right thing, and more people who actually do the right thing so that we can know that someone else actually did it.
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Really? I though she was saying the opposite. 🤷 Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
EvelynEVF said:
I think onmyknees got good advice from the second priest. I read it as him saying “You can abstain! You will have the grace you need.” We need more heroic virtue in the world. More people who actually encourage us to do the right thing, and more people who actually do the right thing so that we can know that someone else actually did it.
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You are right Evelyn. Sorry Seatuck and the others. The way I wrote my post was confusing. The second priest was saying that we could abstain from sexual acts that would lead to orgasm because it was physically impossible for me to have intercourse at this time. He was going to pray for us so that we would be able abstain. He is a holy, holy priest! I had been diagnosed with a rare inflammatory disease called Lichen Schlerosis so the Gyn. told me to use the meds. for 3 months and see if it improved. It did improve enough that we are able to make love now but intercourse is still quite painful for me. I will have to use the meds. for the rest of my life.
 
My wife and I are in the same situation (lichen schlerosis looks like a permanent condition for us) going on 4 years now. We have abstained from all physical intimacy and this has really helped us grow in many ways. I have no issue with abstaining from acts that would lead to orgasm on my part since that is the procreative piece but is it OK to have some physical intimacy if the intent is not to lead to orgasm? (or could possibly lead to an orgasm for her but not me?) I feel that we are missing out on much of the unitive aspects of our relationship by physically withholding so completely from each other. If hugging/kissing is one end of the spectrum, what is the other end?
 
onmyknees said:
You are right Evelyn. Sorry Seatuck and the others. The way I wrote my post was confusing. The second priest was saying that we could abstain from sexual acts that would lead to orgasm because it was physically impossible for me to have intercourse at this time. He was going to pray for us so that we would be able abstain. He is a holy, holy priest! I had been diagnosed with a rare inflammatory disease called Lichen Schlerosis so the Gyn. told me to use the meds. for 3 months and see if it improved. It did improve enough that we are able to make love now but intercourse is still quite painful for me. I will have to use the meds. for the rest of my life.
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Thanks for clarifying. Praise God for Holy Priests.
I’m sorry you are having trouble with something that is so important in marriage and has now turned to a cross for you. I pray that your health is restored or at least very manageable.
 
workinonit said:
My wife and I are in the same situation (lichen schlerosis looks like a permanent condition for us) going on 4 years now. We have abstained from all physical intimacy and this has really helped us grow in many ways. I have no issue with abstaining from acts that would lead to orgasm on my part since that is the procreative piece but is it OK to have some physical intimacy if the intent is not to lead to orgasm? (or could possibly lead to an orgasm for her but not me?) I feel that we are missing out on much of the unitive aspects of our relationship by physically withholding so completely from each other. If hugging/kissing is one end of the spectrum, what is the other end?
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I am so sorry that you can’t have the unitive/procreative act in your marriage! We are able to do this now but like I said the intercourse part is painful for me. I am just grateful now that it is possible to be with my husband in this way now. This might be too personal a question so you don’t have to answer. I want to help your wife if it is possible. Does she use the Estrace cream and the Triamcinolone ointment 0.1% every other night. This is what my OB\GYN prescribed for me and it really helps. We also use the K-Y stuff. Sorry if this is TMI. If your wife is physically unable to have intercourse even after using these meds. every other night for 3-6 months then I would guess that it is ok to hug and kiss as long as you do not have orgasms. I am not sure I understand your last question.
 
Seatuck said:
Thanks for clarifying. Praise God for Holy Priests.
I’m sorry you are having trouble with something that is so important in marriage and has now turned to a cross for you. I pray that your health is restored or at least very manageable.
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Thank you for your prayers Seatuck! I am able to manage the pain by thinking about how much I missed being with my husband when I couldn’t be with him in this way. And also I was so scared that I would never get any better and then what would my husband do? He got very angry during the three months and said that I had to do something for him. If you know what I mean. So I sinned for him one time. He is not into any religions at all. I am grateful to him though because he does go along with the catholic way of ending with openness to procreation. I am so glad my priest prayed for me because it helped a lot. I think holy priests have very powerful prayers ! I am going to pray for " workinonit" and his wife because I think they have a huge cross right now.
 
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