Sex Offenders and Homosexuals

[GULaw]

All right, here’s my dilemma:

In several threads, esp. in “In the News,” there’s a lot of discussion on how to deal with convicted sex offenders being re-released into the community. Most of this discussion is framed with the assumption, shared by many in the mainstream psychological community, that sex offenders cannot be “cured.”

I object to this idea very strongly, and I think I must as a matter of faith. Here’s why:

As Catholics, we acknowledge that many people may suffer from disordered sexual attractions - same sex, towards children, towards violent sexual acts. With reference to homosexuals, the Catechism explains quite clearly that even if the disordered desire itself may not be eliminated, it is a moral imperitive for such a person to live chastely - and as Catholics, we tend to (or at least ought to) encourage people living with same-sex attraction to do so chastely.

See my disconnect?

If we say that a sex-offender cannot be “cured,” do we mean that they are *incapable *of living chastely? It seems ridiculous to me to say that homosexuals may be perfectly capable of living chastely, while never even allowing for the possibility that a pedophile or rapist might. Do we hold out the possibility to homosexuals that they might overcome a disordered attraction and enter marriage or a religious life with a healthy sexuality? Do we do this for other types of disordered attractions?

My personal feeling here is that the Church (at least implicitly) does hold the hope that disordered attractions can be healed through the sacraments and a holy life - I apply that to all such attractions. What is the harm with that? Does anybody else see a huge danger in refusing to accept the possibility that God might heal any such person?

[What I don’t want to talk about → I don’t care here about any particular policy regarding homosexuals, sex offenders, etc. I don’t care if you think sex offenders should be locked up for life, I care if you think that they can never be healed of their attractions]

 

[Michael_T]

I think that all disordered attractions are sinful when they are entertained. Those that have them must pray and ask for prayers. They must avoid anything that fuels their disorders for life.

I think that intrinsically disordered orientations of all sorts can be more or less strong, and more or less overcome, depending on the willingness of the individual to admit that their disorder is a disorder and reject that disorder, begging God every day of the rest of their lives to help them not fall into acting on that disorder.

I’m not sure that disorders can be cured so much as kept in check by God’s grace. It depends on the individual and their own inclinations, dependence on Divine Mercy, and resolutions.

If they try to excuse themselves entirely from actions that are obviously evil or contrary to natural law, that’s not a good sign, but we must still pray for them that they might become open to God’s mercy.

If they fight and agitate within society to have their intrinsically disordered orientation toward intrinsically evil acts accepted as alternative lifestyles, they really need prayers and are in danger of losing their souls unless they can claim honestly before God that they were invincibly ignorant.

I think that agendas that promote the normalcy of disordered attachments to intrinsically evil acts are detriments to the individual souls of those struggling with disorders, as well as society in general.

I think that those who defend intrinsically disordered orientations are assisting (wittingly or not) the forces of darkness that wish to damn as many souls as possible.

 

[Edwin1961]

I totally agree with you Michael T.
But you can say that this good assumption you make can be allpied not just to ‘disordered sexual acts’ but a way to over come SIN in general. Of course one has to be Open to God’s Grace to fight against whatever sin is attacking a person.

Letely, Barbara McGuiggin on EWTN Radio’s Open Line program has been hitting the fight against ‘homosexual agenda’.
With ‘so-called gay pride month’, next month
just be prepared for more crazy talk. We need to open out hearts and minds, with love, toward those who do not Know the Truth.

 

[K777angel]

A very good book to read about a true personal testimony of a man who not only raped - but murdered his pregnant wife, was sentenced to life in prison and ended up becoming a Catholic monk. It’s called** “The Prisoner - An Invitation to Hope.”**
It’s just been released and is written by Rev. Paul Everrett.

It is an incredibly inspiring story and witness to God’s great love and mercy and how He can change the life of anyone - if we turn our will and hearts toward Him.
This man was a sex offender and murderer and went on, through a long and painful journey to use his FREE WILL to overcome his compulsions, anger, hurt and hopelessness - to a lead a holy life.
I highly recommend it.
(I had a copy sent to my own brother who is now in jail being charged (and he’s confessed) with child sexual abuse. He called the book very “compelling.” I hope he passes it around. Sadly, he’s got alot of company. We need to pray for them.)

 

[Catholic2003]

From the CDF’s Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons:

1. Naturally, an exhaustive treatment of this complex issue cannot be attempted here, but we will focus our reflection within the distinctive context of the Catholic moral perspective. It is a perspective which finds support in the more secure findings of the natural sciences, which have their own legitimate and proper methodology and field of inquiry.

However, the Catholic moral viewpoint is founded on human reason illumined by faith and is consciously motivated by the desire to do the will of God our Father. The Church is thus in a position to learn from scientific discovery but also to transcend the horizons of science and to be confident that her more global vision does greater justice to the rich reality of the human person in his spiritual and physical dimensions, created by God and heir, by grace, to eternal life.

…

1. It has been argued that the homosexual orientation in certain cases is not the result of deliberate choice; and so the homosexual person would then have no choice but to behave in a homosexual fashion. Lacking freedom, such a person, even if engaged in homosexual activity, would not be culpable.

Here, the Church’s wise moral tradition is necessary since it warns against generalizations in judging individual cases. In fact, circumstances may exist, or may have existed in the past, which would reduce or remove the culpability of the individual in a given instance; or other circumstances may increase it. What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God’s liberating grace.

From the CDF’s on Certain Questions Concerning Sexual EthicsPersona Humana, section VIII:

At the present time there are those who, basing themselves on observations in the psychological order, have begun to judge indulgently, and even to excuse completely, homosexual relations between certain people. This they do in opposition to the constant teaching of the Magisterium and to the moral sense of the Christian people.

A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.

In regard to this second category of subjects, some people conclude that their tendency is so natural that it justifies in their case homosexual relations within a sincere communion of life and love analogous to marriage, in so far as such homosexuals feel incapable of enduring a solitary life.

In the pastoral field, these homosexuals must certainly be treated with understanding and sustained in the hope of overcoming their personal difficulties and their inability to fit into society. Their culpability will be judged with prudence. But no pastoral method can be employed which would give moral justification to these acts on the grounds that they would be consonant with the condition of such people. For according to the objective moral order, homosexual relations are acts which lack an essential and indispensable finality. In Sacred Scripture they are condemned as a serious depravity and even presented as the sad consequence of rejecting God. This judgment of Scripture does not of course permit us to conclude that all those who suffer from this anomaly are personally responsible for it, but it does attest to the fact that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and can in no case be approved of.

 

[chevalier]

First, please don’t confuse homosexuality with sex offences. Homosexuals need not be offenders. There are homosexuals who lead purer lives than you or I. There are homosexual saints in the Catholic Church as well. Disordered drive is not the same as acting on it.

Next, I can’t share any sort of optimism with regard to sex offenders repenting. It’s theoretically possible, but I have only heard about one man ever repenting for rape and one for attempt at rate (St Maria Goretti’s murderer). Other than that, I don’t think mollesters, abusers and the whole lot change. One in a million, maybe.

 

[K777angel]

chevalier:

First, please don’t confuse homosexuality with sex offences. Homosexuals need not be offenders. There are homosexuals who lead purer lives than you or I. There are homosexual saints in the Catholic Church as well. Disordered drive is not the same as acting on it.

Next, I can’t share any sort of optimism with regard to sex offenders repenting. It’s theoretically possible, but I have only heard about one man ever repenting for rape and one for attempt at rate (St Maria Goretti’s murderer). Other than that, I don’t think mollesters, abusers and the whole lot change. One in a million, maybe.

I urge you to read the book I mentioned in the above post. It is a compelling testimony to God’s mercy and love to a man who WAS a rapist and murderer (this happened decades ago so many years have passed to see that it is indeed REAL) - who became a humble Catholic monk after serving 20 years in prison for his crimes. He had been sentenced to life - but the governor commuted his sentence. You will see why after reading the book.
Scott Hahn once said that someone asked him how to become a saint. He said just two words: “Will it!”
It’s the choice saints and sinners alike must make. And if Jesus can call St. Paul who was a nasty and corrupt man who murdered people - who are we to say that ANY person or class of sinners is not redeemable?
Why then did Christ suffer the Agony in the Garden and crucifixtion on the cross?? For everyone.

 

[chevalier]

Please… I’m not saying they are irredeemable. I’m saying I don’t see this in practice. One in a million… like that guy who raped his wife and killed and became a monk after that, repenting in prison.

 

[Other_Eric]

Hi guys!

I think, in some sense, we would have to define exactly what we mean by “curing” someone of a disordered sexuality. After all, in one sense, everyone suffers from a disordered sexuality, since a sexuality completely in tune with God’s Law would mean that one would only find his or her spouse sexually attractive. I think we can agree that in practice this does not occur. Everyone has a disordered sexuality of a kind.

So, the question of “curing” a homosexual, pedophile or other sexually pathological condition turns on exactly what we mean to produce. Does it mean that our homosexual may still find other members of his own gender sexually attractive, but does not act upon it? Or does it mean that in order to be considered “cured” the homosexual must have no attractions in this regard whatsoever?

To my mind, training a man not to act on a homosexual urge may be more fruitful than eradicating the attraction completely. NARTH’s own statistics bear this out when they refer to only one third of their patients achieving the complete suppression of any homosexual urge. Psychological approaches to pedophiles also do not concentrate on a cure as much as they concentrate on training the individual not to offend or dwell upon his deviant attractions.

The question of whether the attraction can be cured appears, in the mind of the Church, to be a separate matter from how the homosexual or the pedophile should act. As I understand it, the Church does not view the disorder as sinful, in and of itself, merely the decision to act upon it. To “cure” a homosexual then, in a moral sense, is not as important as encouraging him in chastity.

 

[Blanka]

I do believe there is hope and it is a shame that the media portrays only the most horrifying cases and then boldly proclaims that treatment doesn’t help. We would not be human if we didn’t feel disgust at reports of sex crimes. But the media has stirred up our emotions and fears so that we have begun to see danger around every corner. However, I do believe there is always hope through Christ.
To restate what I have previously stated in another thread:
Our holy priest told us during his homily at mass for Pentecost: When we allow the Holy Spirit to come into us, we become people of forgiveness and we cease holding anger, grudges and seeking revenge.
If we seriously want to become Christ-like in our lives, we must strive to see the criminal as from the eyes of God. Surely God is horrified and hurting when someone commits a terrible crime. But Christ would also look at the criminal as a person whose life has gone terribly wrong and spiraled out of control. Some questions to ask ourselves: What has happened in a person’s life to cause them to harm another person? What has made them choose the wrong path and reject goodness? How can we see the criminal as human when we are so horrified by his crime?
It is really interesting to me that people who commit sex crimes and who have real DSM diagnoses are dealt with only for their crime and not their underlying illness. The illness by no means excuses the crime but why are we always talking about prison sentences and the death penalty rather than incarceration and treatment so the criminal can really learn how his illness and actions have harmed another person? If the criminal can find his way to a spiritual life, then a soul can be saved and he will realize how disobeying God’s laws hurts him as well as the other person.
I work in the mental health field and have seen patients who have committed what would be considered sex crimes (not murder) and who are truly remorseful. They are ashamed of their crime. Interestingly, all of them were unaware of how or where to get treatment. They also had weak or nonexistent spiritual lives. Maybe our society is so revengeful toward these kinds of criminals and have placed such a stigma on them that they are afraid of seeking help before they commit a crime.
Perhaps we should be asking how to provide mental health treatment as well as spiritual guidance for these people so that they have somewhere to turn for help before they reach the legal system.
We are all so quick to say “not in my neighborhood” and that is understandable to a degree. We all want to feel safe. But as Catholic Christians, what can we do to help a sexually disordered person become a healthy member of society? Maybe these are the “lepers” of our times. They are disgusting and no one wants to deal with them. Who is willing to reach out?
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[Ray_Scheel]

GULaw:

I don’t care if you think sex offenders should be locked up for life, I care if you think that they can never be healed of their attractions

I have assisted in the supervision of several repeat sex offenders participating in a work program in a correctional setting and have encountered many more as part of my work. I can now generally tell with just a few moments interaction the inmates in on multiple counts of those sorts of charges, even when years into treatment. There is a disconnect from reality in the minds of serial rapists, long term child molestors and those guilty of habitual incest. Medication, long term close supervision, and removal from access to victims is the only “cure” that has a reasonable chance of success compared to the potential risk to innocent aprties.

I actually am quite hopeful about the “curability” of a guy who got drunk once and raped an acquaintance (or even a stranger), or a 19 yo in for statutory rape of a willing 14 y.o. girl. But generally, I’m also surprised when I hear someone is in on that sort of charge, as the one-time failings don’t show in their personality, its not part of who they are…

 

[chevalier]

Anyone ever seen a sex offender, from petty molester to rapist, making amends to the victim?

I realise it’s not up to me to forgive anything not done unto me, but sex crimes committed by whomever on whomever are harder for me to forgive than any of the wrongs that have ever happened to me in person.

I have the nerve to debate atheists and others when they ask things like why the omnipotent omniscient and omnibenevolent God “allow” things like murder or genocide to happen. I typically succeed at some point after a prolonged swordplay. But I always get sad and withdrawn when it comes to sex crimes.

It seems I can’t deal with the knowledge that such things happen. That a lightning bolt from heaven doesn’t strike the rape attempting criminal down.

I’m a law student, finishing my third year, and everyone knows what my “pet crime” would be if I ever ended up as a public prosecutor.

 

[fix]

GULaw:

All right, here’s my dilemma:

In several threads, esp. in “In the News,” there’s a lot of discussion on how to deal with convicted sex offenders being re-released into the community. Most of this discussion is framed with the assumption, shared by many in the mainstream psychological community, that sex offenders cannot be “cured.”

I object to this idea very strongly, and I think I must as a matter of faith.

If one has an authentic medical/psychiatric condition why is it outside of reason to conclude there is no cure?

There are many conditions that do not have a cure. One may need to refrain some certain activities or associations for one not to have a relapse. I cannot see any Christian reason why would would think absence of a cure is not Christian.

 

[K777angel]

Wow - I have so many comments to reply to not sure where to begin.

First, I guess I’d like to say that comparing a behavior like child molestation or rape to “leprosy” isn’t fair to the lepers of the world!
One is a medical and physical condition and the other is a behavior CHOICE.
No one would ever know another person to “be” a rapist or a sex offender if he/she had not chosen to commit the act.

Secondly, I really respect the poster who works with sex offenders. You obviously know what you are talking about due to your personal experience. It must be a tough job.
I have to agree with you that many of these offenders feel no remorse for what they have done. Their tears - if there are any - are usually for themselves. And the price they are paying for “getting caught.” This is not true for all of them, but a great deal of them.

I also agree that it is far less important to try and “cure” a sex offender than it is to do whatever it takes to keep him under control and society safe. Ideally, the goal would be for HIM to control himself. Or the state must step in and control him FOR us.

I believe that with God all things are possible. Including a complete miraculous healing of someone with disordered sexuality. But he/she MUST want to change and must repent sincerely.
“Temptation is not a sin - it is a call to battle.”

 

[tuopaolo]

Other Eric:

To my mind, training a man not to act on a homosexual urge may be more fruitful than eradicating the attraction completely.

Indulging in (by any kind of outward expression including holding hands or even the merely verbal or even by merely internal thoughts) the perverse attraction is sinful (just as it would be for bestiality). If a homosexual responds to God’s grace then as he approaches moral perfection, I believe that to the extent that he does so is the extent to which his perverse attraction will be eradicated.

Homosexual passions at least when indulged in are morally evil:

“Passions are morally good when they contribute to a good action, evil in the opposite case.” (CCC 1768)

And “It belongs to the perfection of the moral or human good that the passions be governed by reason.” (1767)

And this is my main point:

[1770](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1770.htm’) Moral perfection consists in man’s being moved to the good not by his will alone, but also by his sensitive appetite, as in the words of the psalm: "My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God."46

So one cannot have attained “moral perfection” while having disordered passions that have a tendency to move one away from the good – even if these disordered passions are effectively resisted by one’s will. This is because “moral perfection consists in man’s being moved to the good not by his will alone, but also by his sensitive appetite.”

This would apply to other disordered passions (such as an inordinate anger) as well.

 

[Blanka]

Here’s an interesting news story about a man who is apparently living a normal life now after treatment for a sex “crime” when he was 16. But his past may prevent him from taking his family on vacation.

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050520/ap_on_re_us/six_flags_sex_offenders

 

[Blanka]

K777angel:

Wow - I have so many comments to reply to not sure where to begin.

First, I guess I’d like to say that comparing a behavior like child molestation or rape to “leprosy” isn’t fair to the lepers of the world!
One is a medical and physical condition and the other is a behavior CHOICE.
No one would ever know another person to “be” a rapist or a sex offender if he/she had not chosen to commit the act.

Secondly, I really respect the poster who works with sex offenders. You obviously know what you are talking about due to your personal experience. It must be a tough job.
I have to agree with you that many of these offenders feel no remorse for what they have done. Their tears - if there are any - are usually for themselves. And the price they are paying for “getting caught.” This is not true for all of them, but a great deal of them.

I also agree that it is far less important to try and “cure” a sex offender than it is to do whatever it takes to keep him under control and society safe. Ideally, the goal would be for HIM to control himself. Or the state must step in and control him FOR us.

I believe that with God all things are possible. Including a complete miraculous healing of someone with disordered sexuality. But he/she MUST want to change and must repent sincerely.
“Temptation is not a sin - it is a call to battle.”

You seem to misunderstand my point when I commented that “as Catholic Christians, what can we do to help a sexually disordered person become a healthy member of society? Maybe these are the “lepers” of our times. They are disgusting and no one wants to deal with them.” My point being that we all find homosexuals, rapists, and molesters horrifying and turn away from them in disgust. The analogy is to the lepers of biblical times that were considered social outcasts. Surely the lepers couldn’t help having their disease but they were nevertheless considered ritually unclean and unacceptable in the presence of others. They were scorned by the self righteous Pharisees. I’m not comparing the biological disease of Leprosy to the psychiatric sexually disordered diseases. I am comparing the Judeo-Christian response of choosing to make a certain group of people outcasts. My question was how can we as Christians reach out to help these people change and amend their lives. I was thinking in terms of psychiatric treatment as well as intense spiritual direction. Many of these people have no spiritual/religious life so do not have the full sense of how sinful their sexual deviations are. I agree with you that they must want to change but what can we as Christians do to offer instruction and guidance to help bring them back to the path toward God?

 

[abcdefg]

GULaw:

Most of this discussion is framed with the assumption, shared by many in the mainstream psychological community, that sex offenders cannot be “cured.”

if it only involved sex offences then it can be cured, but the reality is most sex offenders if not all are psychopaths which can’t be cured

 

[TheGarg]

GULaw:

All right, here’s my dilemma:

In several threads, esp. in “In the News,” there’s a lot of discussion on how to deal with convicted sex offenders being re-released into the community. Most of this discussion is framed with the assumption, shared by many in the mainstream psychological community, that sex offenders cannot be “cured.”

I object to this idea very strongly, and I think I must as a matter of faith. Here’s why:

As far as child molesters go, I am not WILLING to take that chance.

I would not bat an eye if they were given time to make thier piece with God, and then excuted. ALL pedifiles are repeat offenders. This is a sin that destroys children.

You want to keep them alive [since they regularly are killed in prison]…put em all on an prison island.

This is harsh, but too bad, the pain they inflict is much harsher. God have mercy on them and thier victims.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

Blanka:

Surely the lepers couldn’t help having their disease but they were nevertheless considered ritually unclean and unacceptable in the presence of others.

The lepers of old had to be removed from society to protect the rest of society from thier disease. Though the scorn of the Pharisees was uncalled for, their banishment from society was not optional. As a society, we maintained facilities to isolate leprosy patients until the advent of antibiotics capable of curing the disease. Until we reached that point of medical care, they simply had to be removed from society to protect society.

Blanka:

My question was how can we as Christians reach out to help these people change and amend their lives. I was thinking in terms of psychiatric treatment as well as intense spiritual direction. Many of these people have no spiritual/religious life so do not have the full sense of how sinful their sexual deviations are. I agree with you that they must want to change but what can we as Christians do to offer instruction and guidance to help bring them back to the path toward God?

Religion can’t cure psychosis, several of the ones I’ve run acros have had very strong religious trappings, their disease wasn’t from a lack of konwing thier actions were out of line. Spiritual direction might help them come to understand why their conditions require them to remove theselves from society to protect potential victims, but that is a secondary concern to protecting the rest of society from them as effectively as possible.

First close the barn door, then try to tame the fox.