Sex Or Death?

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Lisa_Marie:

To others, death is worth it to defend ourselves.

Words like these are easily thought to mean “If I cared ENOUGH I would have found a way to die. You believe the rape was my fault after all. Maybe it was.”

Others here have expressed the opinion that it isn’t “neccesary” to fight a rapist until death, but a sign of heroic virtue. Oh, those words hurt! They say to a person who has been raped, “If you were only MORE HOLY, MORE VIRTUOUS, it wouldn’t have happened! God would have answered your prayers for death if you had REALLY meant them!”

Lisa Marie,

I am so, so very sorry: first that you had to go through that and second that my words hurt you! I worded my thoughts badly because I didn’t mean what you thought I did. IT IS NEVER THE VICTIM’S FAULT!!! It makes me weep to hear anyone, victim or not, imply that it might have been. I am deeply sorry I wasn’t more clear!

For the clarity of all, what I meant was that RISKING death is worth it to some. To some victims, the most important thing is to have it over quickly and not think about it and not keep fighting as to make things worse. Neither one of these is wrong or holier than the other one. Anyone would resist, but some would stop fighting in order to live and some would not stop there. Again, neither one is wrong or holier than the other.

Also, not everyone who is willing to fight til death does die. Just because you fight with your very life doesn’t mean you won’t be overpowered and it doesn’t mean that your attacker will kill you.

When it comes to life and death, one is not always good nor bad. For example, to die for martyrdom is good. To put yourself in danger to try to be a martyr is bad. Maria Goretti was martyrd, making her death heroic. Lisa Marie (who boldly shared her horrifying rape experience above) refused to kill her attacker or herself, making her life heroic.

Every case is different. We can’t say that a person “should always die”, “should always live”, “should always fight”, or “should always do anything”. It comes down to a particular situation between you, your attacker and God. Only then can you know what you will do and what you should do. I pray that no one has to find out first hand.

Those of us who have never been put through such a terror cannot even begin to understand the situation. I have tried to understand Maria Goretti’s life and death and have tried to make that situation clearer for others. If I’ve hurt rape victims here by saying or wording something stupidly, please forgive me and know that I have such respect for survivors! I don’t know if I’d even be able to get out of bed facing what you had. I pray for you daily!

And again, Lisa Marie, I am truly sorry.

 

[cheddarsox]

MG girl,

I am also a person who experienced sexual assault. I have not found your words or presentation hurtful, because your heart, which is warm and tender is so obvious in your words.

I have been hurt over the years by people’s focus and interpretation of the life and death of Maria. For people who have not had the experience, it sounds very noble that she fought to the death rather than allowed herself to be sullied. That is how they put it. And it does equate to death is preferrable to being raped. That rape makes the victim unpure etc. etc. Most people never mention, and know nothing of her pious life. And it does appear that she would not have been canonized had she not died for her resistance.

As far as I know, the church has not canonized a woman who was raped, survived, lived a pious life and did good, though I am sure there are many, I have certainly known some.

I think that Maria is a saint.

I think the way her story has been used has hurt numerous women who have experienced sexual assault.

Her story does offer more hope to rapists than to their surviving victims. It shows rapists they can be forgiven and turn their lives around. It says little to those who survive and must rebuild lives and relationships, who must continue to function and love and face the world and all its ugly possibilities. They are not recognized for their pain or efforts, neither by the church, nor most of the people around them. And often this leads them to think that like Maria, they would be better off dead.

Sexual assault affects the way people treat a person. A victim is often rejected by their partner because the partner can’t get the idea or picture of the assault out of their mind. It is human nature, not a smallness of heart that causes this. The partner must heal as well, and get past the assault. There are saints out there who got over their own revulsion and helped their partner heal.

I say partner, rather than husband, because men too can and do suffer sexual assault, and it is horrifying for them as well.

The church’s recognition of Maria has this unfortunate side effect, that I am sure no one intended. yet it is there, and it is good to recognize it. Martyrdom and virginity have been held up over and over again as examples by the church of what gets a person into heaven. We need to remember all the saints who’s souls were refined, and who’s stories are told because of their faith in lives of adversity. There are heroes enough for all of us, if we care to look for them.

cheddar

 

[fix]

Father,
I am the victim of a rape and while trying to heal after the crime I looked to the saints. I wanted to find someone who had come through the event with heroic holiness, faith and love intact. I was surprised to find that all the female saints who were patrons of rape victims had never actually been raped. It had the effect of making me feel worse and blaming myself more. I asked a friend about this and they said that people in the Church just couldn’t accept a saint being raped. That they were nieve about the crime and people would speculate as to fault thus leaving saint-hood in question. I have never stopped wondering and would like an intelligent and informed answer. Why is it that the patrons of this crime never went throuh it or is there a saint I haven’t found that did?
Thanks for your time,
Beth W

By Fr. “KC” (fr_kc) on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 12:00 amear Beth W:
Thank you for your question.
I have never even thought of the possibility as you present your concern. Certainly such saints as St. Maria Goretti and St. Agnes, can be held up to us as women who were subjected to this crime. Because they fought and through such resistance were killed is not an indication that they were subjected to rape. I cannot imagine such details being discussed in the lives of such saintly women. This is certainly NOT to indicate that women who were forced into actual act of sexual intercourse are any less holy. What the Church has stressed over the years is that any person who in their hearts and desires resisted such are as holy as those who were killed in their resistance.
I would suggest that you accept what you seem to indicate in your writing for a reply, that you know what was in your own heart and mind when you were subjected to such a situation, you are able to place yourself with those who have been canonized because of their resistance. Never forget, God reads the heart that humans seldom are able to read correctly. Your friend statement that the Church could not accept a saint being raped is entirely a fiction of his.her imagination. All sin begins in the mind and heart and need not be brought to is conclusion to be called a mortal sin.
In the writing of saints who were placed in such a situation and describing the sexual act would be considered by the Church as imprudent for it could arouse others and the Church would be guilty of participation in sin. No, dear friend, lift your head high and thank God for what you and He alone knows was in your heart at that moment. Walk with your head high as one not guilty at the sad moment of another’s sinning. God loves you and pleas accept His Total love. My priestly blessings. ASKFRKC

oldforum.catholic.org/discussion/messages/41/844626.html?1115449251

 

[Starchild]

Good thing I’m not an attractive target I guess.

Alan

It is not about attractiveness, but power over another. Do you think only model-type women are being rapped daily? How can one then justify the raping of babies and children if it is only due to attractiveness?

 

[Starchild]

No, the Church says it is better for anyone to die than to sin. Resisting rape woes not always lead to death - even when the would-be rapist threatens that he will kill you if you don’t submit. However, submitting to rape is cooperating with the rapist, and sinful.

God gives us all the graces necessary for us to the right thing, but sometimes we place obstacles in their way - not always deliberately, but out of fear, anxiety, etc.

I would hope that if I was being attacked with the purpose of rape that I would resist to my last breath, if necessary. In other words, that it would be my dead body that would be raped!

you obviously have never been raped or met someone who has been, I pray you don’t ever but I do hope you get batter common sense than this!

 

[sanctamaria17]

It’s not full consent, so therefore it’s still rape. It’s traumatic and evil and sometimes, full resistance is not possible. Also, if the lives of others are threatened, then it becomes tricky.

Do you expect a small child to resist something like that when they’re absolutely terrified? Or anyone else? If someone is violent enough to do THAT, what ELSE could they be capable of? Also, the shock alone could be enough to where you’re frozen and can’t act against it.

I guess we should also resist being killed in the first place because it’s “cooperating with sin”? But then being a martyr doesn’t work either.

I think Maria is a saint because she fought back when a wrong was done to her and would not allow something she fought for to be stolen from her. I think she is a saint because of her forgiveness when wrongs were done to her. She fought and fought hard, which is difficult for someone so young.

However, women who are raped and survive are not “less holy”. I’m sorry, but if someone is mugged, would you say they “cooperated with sin” because they let someone steal their stuff instead of killed them? Stealing is a sin too and breaks one of the Commandments. How is rape any different?

Rape is not about sex. It’s about power and control. You can find anyone willing if it was merely about sex. It’s not only pretty girls who are raped either. Children, elderly, men, women, of all ages, body types, races, etc get raped every day. It’s a disgusting act of violence and blame should be assigned to the one who committed it in the first place.

I had a very close call with this when I was younger and as a Catholic, these accusations towards rape survivors absolutely sickens me.

 

[Starchild]

Ok, I’ve been reading this thread for quite a while now. The posts containing comments about “cooperating” with the rapist by not getting killed litterally made me sick to my stomach. It has haunted me for the last few days. THANK YOU to those of you who disagreed with statements like these.

I’m going to share a little about myself in hopes that no one reading this thread will ever speak about this subject without carefully considering the pain their words can cause.

When I was 17 I was in a foreign country working in an orphanage as a missions project. I was kidnapped and held by a group of men for almost 2 months. During that time I was raped and tortured. I fought until I had no more strength left. I tried to escape, but was always caught and punished. I ~BEGGED~ God to please let me die.

Once I had a chance to pick up a gun. For a few seconds I had two choices: shoot him or shoot myself. I couldn’t kill someone, knowing they would go to hell. I raised the gun to my head. I WANTED to die. Suddenly my mind was filled with the knowledge that God didn’t want me to commit suicide. It would be wrong. I had to fight to chose NOT to kill myself. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done, along with the choice to never hate. It all took only seconds, but it seemed forever before the gun was grabbed back out of my hand.

MariaGorettiGrl said:

Being raped is far beyond dishonor. For some, it’s a fate worse than death. Your post is true! Thank you for your sympathy. But if I may, let me use it as an example of how rape victims think? When you went on to say:

To others, death is worth it to defend ourselves.

Words like these are easily thought to mean “If I cared ENOUGH I would have found a way to die. You believe the rape was my fault after all. Maybe it was.”

Others here have expressed the opinion that it isn’t “neccesary” to fight a rapist until death, but a sign of heroic virtue. Oh, those words hurt! They say to a person who has been raped, “If you were only MORE HOLY, MORE VIRTUOUS, it wouldn’t have happened! God would have answered your prayers for death if you had REALLY meant them!”

You may not know this, but many christians really DO believe that God never would allow an innocent person to be raped. And they say it. And they even preach it. That includes “Christian” therapists. I had several who actually brought me to almost commit suicide again because of their insistance that God would have protected me if my prayers had been sincere. Some part of me must have really wanted it all to happen. If this isn’t what you mean, PLEASE be careful to not sound like it is!

Like me, many rape victims WANTED to die, but God took that choice out of their hands for His own purposes. I know in my case it was so those who attacked me would have someone to pray for them.

I was greatly comforted by some writings by St. Augustine to nuns who had been raped when their convent was attacked. He spoke quite eloquently about their purity in the eyes of God. He never even hinted that those who had been killed in the attacks were more “holy”.

I need to send this before the forum times me out. Once again, THANK YOU to those of you who have been kind. And to everyone, please remember to be careful with your words next time. Don’t say something is church teaching when it might be just your opinion. You may not know the pain being caused to someone who’s life is already a burden they wish they didn’t have to carry. God bless you all. Lisa

I’m sorry for your experience, but glad that you are so brave to speak about it…hopefully the ignorant ones will finally understand how their words affect others, if not then at least we try to help them understand…

 

[Starchild]

I have about 101 thoughts about this thread and I wonder if I’ll be able to articulate even one.

This is one of the most ignorant, thoughtless, potentially damaging ideas I have ever heard about any topic. This isn’t the legal defintion of rape or the church’s. Rape is rape because the perpetrator uses coersion or force to sexually violate another. Don’t you dare put the blame on the victim EVER. People don’t “submit” to rape (duh!); “submisssion” to rape is a fantasy.

Again, wrong. Where did you get this stuff? As someone above said, rape is not sex.

Again, ignorant, thoughtless and hurtful. Do you have any idea how many victims blame themselves after an assault? And how this undermines her healing? And that it’s just plain wrong?

This is probably the most extreme example of prudishness. And prudishness is not a virtue. Those who see impurity where there is none are dealing with impurity themselves.

THANK YOU! I was seriously geting annoyed by the amount of ignorant comments blamming the victims!!! My mom was 7 when a certain “high ranking figure” from her town raped her and her sisters, yet she was blamed as being seductive (by her priest). Where’s the sense in that? How is a 7 year old seductive when all she does is work in her fathers field (she grew up on a farm)… The world has need to change their views about rape very quickly! I am fed up with hearing that it’s the victim’s fault…

 

[whatevergirl]

Did all the martyrs who ever lived and died commit suicide? No. They had a choice–compromise the faith or be killed. This is the ultimate love of God. Suicide is a selfish decision to abandon all hope and not trust in God’s Providence.

Suicide isn’t always within someone’s coherent will…meaning, they could be quite ill, mentally or physically, and it impairs their judgement…Just wanted to point that out.

 

[sanctamaria17]

And just wanted to point out, the mugging isn’t merely theoretical either. A good friend of mine was mugged at gunpoint. He lost his cell phone and wallet due to it, but thankfully survived. Naturally, we were freaked.

Now, the person who did the stealing was sinning. Did my friend sin because he allowed them to take his stuff in exchange for his life? Didn’t Jesus say to just simply let them have it?

Let’s take this further. Another friend of mine was sexually assaulted (and I had a near miss, she was a big support to me because she understood and had been through worse). She’s Catholic, a sweet girl, does NOTHING to provoke attention yet just had bad luck of being at someone’s mercy. She froze. She couldn’t do anything. Was that her fault?

My answer to these questions is NO!! People will use violence and sin to get what they want, doesn’t mean that the people they sinned against ASKED FOR IT! Yeah, because I’d love to go through such trauma for the rest of my life and have those memories. I’d love to have memories of a gun pressed to my head with the threat of either my life or my virginity. I’d love to worry about whether or not I was going to get HIV or pregnant (and if I’d be strong enough to parent a child or if I’d have to give my child up for adoption).

What next, we going to blame sick people for not having enough faith? Or someone when their spouse commits adultery?

Seriously…I expect more out of my fellow Catholics.

 

[SeekerJen]

What next, we going to blame sick people for not having enough faith? Or someone when their spouse commits adultery?
.

That church already exists. It is the Word of Faith movement. I would hope no serious Catholic would ever embrace or promote its teachings.

 

[Ruthie]

From what I’ve read about St. Maria Goretti, she was concerned for the perp’s soul. Though it doesn’t say so in the above article, I seem to remember that she kept telling him that he would be in mortal sin for raping her. She did forgive him on her deathbed.

It may seem illogical for her to be murdered in order to save this man’s soul, but that’s the way it worked out. (He became a religious, if I remember rightly.) God may have given her that knowledge.

Yes, back then the ideal was to be killed rather than give up one’s virginity, and that may be why she was canonized. (The euphemism for it was “ruined.”) But I think the lesson for these present times is that she laid down her life for her neighbor’s soul.

Ruthie

 

[Julian_Peters]

Thank you to all who have participated. This thread is now closed.