Sex Or Death?

[AlanFromWichita]

wabrams:

Do you mind clarifying that statement?

These kids put a suicide plan into operation that was evidently designed to kill as many as possible, until they killed themselves. The details are sketchy, but these kids were painted as “normal” (of course) but somewhat reclusive, and all this but nothing about God in any other part of anything that I recall.

They went in shooting random children and teachers in the cafeteria, and opened fire in the school library with automatic weapons, and he shot Cassie in the face shortly before blowing himself up with a pipe bomb.

This was planned and acted out like a military mission. They were shooting kids on sight. In this one isolated shooting, witnessed only by the one friend, suddenly we have this demand about believing in God. It just didn’t fit. It’s like the kid shifted gears right in the middle of everything and suddenly did this one killing differently, and trying to make some point.

Cassie’s father was very religious, and as I recall the one witness to the killing had told him that to try to make him feel better. Maybe she had no idea Cassie would be turned into a national hero and martyr, and her family would get a book deal.

BTW, I don’t begrudge them a book deal, because I don’t mind them making something off their tragedy. I’m just not going to buy the book even though it may in fact be true. The Father did write some cool poetry, and one thing I noticed about the Columbine event was that the victim families were surprisingly forgiving and came off like they were really trying to look at this in a Christian way.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

mumto5:

Say for example someone breaks into my house in the night while my husband is away. I have five children sleeping. I wake up with the intruder there. I have a choice, fight, make lots of noise, risk my life, risk the kids coming running and putting themselves in harms way … OR, I can quietly try to resist but essentially submit unwillinginly hoping he will do his business and then go away so as to avoid any disturbance/harm to the kids - or that would be the hope anyway. So with the second option, even though he has come into my house uninvited to do his crime, it’s no longer rape as much as co-erced sex? Riiiight…

Or put it another way. A self-defence book suggested that if you had the chance and there was in intruder or even invited guest who was making you feel uncomfortable or could attack you, to climb out the bathroom window or something, if you had a chance, and run for help. I’m sorry but even if the door was wide open and I had the chance, do you think I’m going to leave my five kids alone in the house with an intruder while I go get help? I couldn’t leave to save myself. So if I have the chance to escape and don’t because I don’t want to leave my kids vulnerable, I have to accept some responsibility for co-erced fornication? Don’t think so.

Let’s blame the victim again.

That is a good example. At least with the saint she did not have children to protect.

Alan

 

[mosher]

As a good catholic she knew that she would not have committed a sin by being assaulted but that he would have sinned. This is why she resisted his advances and it was in that resistence she showed her love for him. When he stabbed her (multiple times) her heroic virtue was shown in her love for him in her forgiveness of him while committing the sin of murder. Her further love for him was shown in her forgiving him in a vision and the eventual conversion of his life. And her love for him was made whole in her parents forgiveness of him later in life.

Maria shows us true love and is a mirror of Christ. That is why she is a saint.

This is the revision to the original post. I couldn’t edit it because the 20 min time to edit has expired

 

[JimG]

mosher:

As a good catholic she knew that** she would not have committed a sin by being assaulted ** but that** he ** would have sinned. This is why she resisted his advances. When he stabbed her (multiple times) her heroic virtue was shown in her love for him in not wanting him to sin and in her forgiveness of him while committing the sin of murder. Her further love for him was shown in her forgiving him in a vision and the eventual conversion of his life. And her love for him was made whole in her parents forgiveness of him later in life.

Maria shows us true love and is a mirror of Christ. That is why she is a saint.

I think that this is a key point. She displayed heroic virtue in resisting to the point of death. It is heroic because it is not required. Church doctrine does not require women to choose to die to avoid rape.

 

[wabrams]

AlanFromWichita:

These kids put a suicide plan into operation that was evidently designed to kill as many as possible, until they killed themselves. The details are sketchy, but these kids were painted as “normal” (of course) but somewhat reclusive, and all this but nothing about God in any other part of anything that I recall.

They went in shooting random children and teachers in the cafeteria, and opened fire in the school library with automatic weapons, and he shot Cassie in the face shortly before blowing himself up with a pipe bomb.

This was planned and acted out like a military mission. They were shooting kids on sight. In this one isolated shooting, witnessed only by the one friend, suddenly we have this demand about believing in God. It just didn’t fit. It’s like the kid shifted gears right in the middle of everything and suddenly did this one killing differently, and trying to make some point.

Cassie’s father was very religious, and as I recall the one witness to the killing had told him that to try to make him feel better. Maybe she had no idea Cassie would be turned into a national hero and martyr, and her family would get a book deal.

BTW, I don’t begrudge them a book deal, because I don’t mind them making something off their tragedy. I’m just not going to buy the book even though it may in fact be true. The Father did write some cool poetry, and one thing I noticed about the Columbine event was that the victim families were surprisingly forgiving and came off like they were really trying to look at this in a Christian way.

Alan

That’s pretty much what I thought you were getting at. Seems we’re on the same page.

 

[mosher]

The story of Maria Gioretti is not that hard to understand. My room mates and I were talking about an even more complicated issue. There is a saint of the early Church that instead of being taken and raped by the roman soldiers she jumped off a building to her death. I think that the discussion about her would be much more interesting than Maria Gioretti. The saint’s name will be forthcomming when I find her.

 

[CatholicCid]

AlanFromWichita:

That is a good example. At least with the saint she did not have children to protect.

Alan

No offense, but I don’t think that example have any bearing on this… As they are entirely different and hold different circumstances…

I’d think the main reason she was Canonized was more so of her loving ability to forgive her attacker.
Under the circumstances as well, it was a neighbor who attacked her and he didn’t stab her until she said she’d rather die… Would you automatically assume he would kill her then if you didn’t know he did?
Yes, she resisted getting raped, but I’d look at the more important factor here, she forgave the one who killed her… Even after her death, she returned to him in a dream to help him.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

CatholicCid:

No offense, but I don’t think that example have any bearing on this… As they are entirely different and hold different circumstances…

No offense taken. I think you are saying also what I intended to convey. They were under different circumstances. A mother protecting her child is a whole different story than a woman without children, I think. A mother protecting her children has several additional complications, and if she gets herself killed it has created orphans, so I think both can be seen as doing the Right Thing given their circumstances.

Alan

 

[Ruthie]

St. Maria Gorretti’s love was shown in 3 ways. First, she was concerned for Allesandro’s soul while he was committing the crime. She told him she didn’t want his soul to go to hell. It was apparently more than just screaming “You’ll go to hell!”

Second, she told everyone at the hospital that she forgave him, as Jesus did when he said “Father, forgive them…” I. e. more than a personal “I forgive Allessandro;” but one like Jesus’ forgiveness of His crucifiers.

Third, the conversion vision she sent to Allessandro in jail.

I saw a half-hour show about her on EWTN, which made the above points. If I remember right (always a question) Allesandro was a next door neighbor who had courted her, but she aspired to the religious life. And he was next door in a duplex-type building.

It also said that, after Maria’s beatification, Allesandro lived out his life taking care of her shrine, which was the very home where he had murdered her. I think he also became a religious.

So there is a heck of a lot more to this story than just resisting rape.

 

[puzzleannie]

PiusXIII:

As Catholics, we honor St. Maria Goretti because she resisted having sex and was killed for resisting.

I acknowledge that maybe I don’t know the St. Maria Goretti story as well as some—but from what I do know, something has always bothered me about her and I hope someone can explain.

It always seemed to me like she chose to be killed rather than have sex. To me this almost seems like choosing death over sex. It seems like an indirect form of suicide rather than sex.

Particularly with the church’s emphasis on choosing life, this always bothered me.

Is the church saying it is better to die or better to commit suicide than to submit to sexual activity outside of marriage?

she did not commit suicide, she took no direct action that led to death, she gave her attacker the choice to stop and he persisted in his evil intent and action. there is a huge difference. does a soldier who obeys orders and attacks through deadly shellfire commit suicide? I think not. Maria chose life - eternal life - rather than sin - eternal death.

 

[fix]

JimG:

I think that this is a key point. She displayed heroic virtue in resisting to the point of death. It is heroic because it is not required. Church doctrine does not require women to choose to die to avoid rape.

That is the point. I cannot see why anyone would have a problem with this wonderful saint. She is a great role model and she displayed heroic virtue. She is one of my favorites.

 

[cheddarsox]

I have spent some time looking up information on St. Maria. And indeed she was canonized for purity,not forgiveness. The fact that she would rather be martyred than sin against God, that she chose death over offending the lord.

So it is not sex or death as much as sin or death. Though it appears that the focus of her devotees is on the purity/virginal aspect.

cheddar

 

[mosher]

cheddarsox:

I have spent some time looking up information on St. Maria. And indeed she was canonized for purity,not forgiveness. The fact that she would rather be martyred than sin against God, that she chose death over offending the lord.

So it is not sex or death as much as sin or death. Though it appears that the focus of her devotees is on the purity/virginal aspect.

cheddar

True, the cult of St. Giorette has focused around her virginal purity but I am sure that if one were to look at the ruling of the Cause for the Saints concerning her canonization a large portion would have been her superhuman ablity to forgive.

 

[cheddarsox]

mosher:

True, the cult of St. Giorette has focused around her virginal purity but I am sure that if one were to look at the ruling of the Cause for the Saints concerning her canonization a large portion would have been her superhuman ablity to forgive.

I found that information including quotes from the pope himself, and sadly, no, that was not the reason for her canonization. She was to be an example of piety in life, purity and martyrdom to youth in a fallen world where purity had fallen by the wayside.

The focus of her canonization was on her efforts in life to resist sin, especially sin of loss of purity. Apparently a priest who instructed her and other children repeatedly emphasized that death was preferable to sin, and Maria was a very pious and devout girl and took it to heart.

Apparently she was a shining example of piety as well, if her biographies are to be believed. She suffered uncomplainingly for the good of her family, worked hard, made great personal sacrafices to learn the catechism that she might receive holy communion (she was illiterate), and requested the blessed sacrament often. She lived in a time when it was not common for laity to receive the blessed sacrament more than 3 times a year. The priest, moved by her devotion, indulged her wishes to receive Christ.

So there is much to admire in this young saint, however, even in her canonization the church focused on martyrdom and sexual purity.

I hope that as time goes on more will be made of the other edifying aspects of her short life. Most of us can use encouragement in life, as I suspect few will be subject to martyrdom, so her story could reach further if the story of her life was given as much focus as her untimely death.

cheddar

 

[mosher]

Thank you for your post cheddersox and I would only add one comment. I would not say “sadly, no” in refering to our discussion only because sometimes the Church’s understanding of this is a little different than our considering we live in a very pragmatic culture her sacrifice seems odd to us. However, I am sure that in this instance the Church is right in holding up Maria as an example of heroic virtue for the reasons cited by the Cause.

 

[cheddarsox]

I don’t think her sarafice odd, I just wish that the story of her life was shared along with the story of her death, since it has much to offer as well.

cheddar

 

[beckyann2597]

From what I understand of the story, he violently attacked her and cornered her in his attempt to rape her. Please use the right terminology here–he was trying to rape her, not have sex with her. You might think that they are the same, but rape is an act of violence, and sex is not. She pleaded with him and tried to get away–which is exactly the right thing to do, get away! And because he was acting in violence and not love, he responded in violence, not love. He stabbed her and she was still able to forgive him. I agree with previous posts–thats the moral here–FORGIVE!

 

[cheddarsox]

The murderer of Maria was the young man who lived with his father in the other side of the duplex. Maria knew him, and he had approached her many times with impure intent. She had refused him, and tried to make sure she would never be caught alone by him.

She was not quite 12, and depending on the source, he was between 18 and 21, and a perveyor of pornography. On the fateful day, Maria had stayed home from farm work to take care of home and baby sister, The attacker entered her home, and pressed her for sex, she refused and fought him off with words and physically. He told her (and apparently had also threatened her previously) that he would kill her if she did not submit, but she continued to refuse. He took up a knife and stabbed her 14 times and left her for dead. She was found bleeding by a younger brother.

Before she died, the priest who had encouraged her piety asked her if she forgave her attacker (she had named him and he had been arrested) and she said yes and that she hoped to see him someday in heaven.

She died within 2 days (accounts vary) of her attack.

Again, she was canonized as a martyr for choosing death over sin, as is held up as an example for purity. Certainly if you share her story, do share her pious life, forgiving heart, and gracious acceptance of suffering.

cheddar

 

[cheddarsox]

beckyann2597:

From what I understand of the story, he violently attacked her and cornered her in his attempt to rape her. Please use the right terminology here–he was trying to rape her, not have sex with her. You might think that they are the same, but rape is an act of violence, and sex is not.

Apparently her attacker had repeatedly approached her for sex prior to her attack, therefore, she is also held up for purity, because she refused to submit to his desires even before the final attack. He had made her life miserable for a long time.

cheddar

 

[didymus]

BibleReader:

Well, strictly speaking, not true.

Maximilian Kolbe was merely standing in line in Auschwitz when he saw Franciszek Gajowniczek condemned to death. Maximillian Kolbe walked up to the Commandant and pointed at Franciszek Gajowniczek and said, **‘I am a Catholic priest. Let me take his place. I am old. He has a wife and children.’ ** So, he volunteered to die in someone else’s place, and not forced to choose between compromising his faith or be killed.

I think in his canonisation Maxamillian Kolbe was described as a “martyr to charity”.

I think it’s a mistake to describe Maria Goretti as a martyr. Not to detract anything from her but she certainly wasn’t being persecuted for the Faith. Her forgiving her attacker certainly holds more of a lesson for us than her having been killed by him.

Here’s her story from the Patron Saints website