M
mosher
Guest
However, the fact reamins that the Church considers her a martyr.
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Catholic2003
Guest
So are you saying that Church doctrine states that it is better for a woman to choose to die to avoid rape?
J
Joan_M
Guest
No, the Church says it is better for anyone to die than to sin. Resisting rape woes not always lead to death - even when the would-be rapist threatens that he will kill you if you don’t submit. However, submitting to rape is cooperating with the rapist, and sinful.
God gives us all the graces necessary for us to the right thing, but sometimes we place obstacles in their way - not always deliberately, but out of fear, anxiety, etc.
I would hope that if I was being attacked with the purpose of rape that I would resist to my last breath, if necessary. In other words, that it would be my dead body that would be raped!
D
didymus
Guest
Joan M:
There is a world of difference between submitting (=being overpowered) and cooperating. I doubt any rape victim ever said to herself “Oh, goody, just the excuse to fornicate I’ve been looking for.”
I know many survivors of rape and child molestation and believe me they all blame themselves. My wife is 56 and she still has it in her head that it’s her fault her father molested her when she was 5. Survivors don’t need anyone coming along and telling them they should have resisted to the death enough of them already wish they had died, thank you very much.
You say God gives us the grace we need to do the right thing – and also, we trust, the grace to bear the evils that befall us. Would you respond to anything else suicidally?
I pray nothing like this ever happens to you but if it did, how do you know that God wouldn’t still have plans for you?
Lastly, I’d like to know why we don’t apply the same standard to other crimes.
If I’m a bank teller and a robber comes in and points a gun in my face should I refuse to cooperate in his crime? Should I preserve my virtue (honesty) by not handing over my employer’s money, thus becoming, in effect, a thief myself?
Not an exact analogy I’ll admit but I would like to know why we hardly give a second look to one group acting under duress (robbery victims) while we scrutinse another group (rape victims) under a microscope.
Sorry for my tone if I have offended.
I cannot believe I am reading this in 2005.
There is a world of difference between submitting (=being overpowered) and cooperating. I doubt any rape victim ever said to herself “Oh, goody, just the excuse to fornicate I’ve been looking for.”
I know many survivors of rape and child molestation and believe me they all blame themselves. My wife is 56 and she still has it in her head that it’s her fault her father molested her when she was 5. Survivors don’t need anyone coming along and telling them they should have resisted to the death enough of them already wish they had died, thank you very much.
I respect your opinion, but one question: if resisance is suicidal is it still mandatory, or even permissible?
You say God gives us the grace we need to do the right thing – and also, we trust, the grace to bear the evils that befall us. Would you respond to anything else suicidally?
I pray nothing like this ever happens to you but if it did, how do you know that God wouldn’t still have plans for you?
Lastly, I’d like to know why we don’t apply the same standard to other crimes.
If I’m a bank teller and a robber comes in and points a gun in my face should I refuse to cooperate in his crime? Should I preserve my virtue (honesty) by not handing over my employer’s money, thus becoming, in effect, a thief myself?
Not an exact analogy I’ll admit but I would like to know why we hardly give a second look to one group acting under duress (robbery victims) while we scrutinse another group (rape victims) under a microscope.
Sorry for my tone if I have offended.
C
Catholic2003
Guest
I can only hope that most Catholics know better.
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Christus_Rex
Guest
WHAT!!! She did NOT resist having SEX! She tryed to get a man off her who was GOING TO RAPE HER!!! She didn’t try to be killed! It’s the mans fault she died not hers. He was the one who killed her.
We honour her because she had the courage to forgive someone who killed and attempted to rape her.
Michael
PiusXIII:
We honour her because she had the courage to forgive someone who killed and attempted to rape her.
Michael
M
mosher
Guest
I don’t see how the year has any effect on the reasoning. What was true then is also true today and what was wrong then is also wrong today.
C
Catholic2003
Guest
Yes, indeed. “Submitting” to a rapist is not now, nor has it ever been, a sin on the part of the victim.
E
ElizabethAnne
Guest
I think this gets to the heart of the matter. No victim of rape is required to resist unto death. Maria’s resistance is honored specifically because it wasn’t necessary. It’s also significant that she resisted this man’s threats of rape repeatedly.
I never thought this story was out of the ordinary. I always envisioned the boy asking her if she believed in God because he intended to kill her. Like, “Do you believe in God because you’re about to meet Him real soon if He exists.”
The whole attack was about terror and control. It doesn’t seem inconsistant that the boys would ask their victims antagonizing questions in hopes of evoking more fear before they died. Maybe they wanted to see some of the people beg before they shot them to feel even more powerful and in control. I never got the impression that he shot her ONLY because she said, “Yes.” My guess is that he would have shot her no matter what she said. It’s a truly sad story.
God bless.
C
cheddarsox
Guest
Christus Rex:
cheddar
According to the church’s/Pope’s statement about why she was canonized, forgiveness wasn’t even mentioned. She was canonized for choosing death over sin, for maintaining her purity even unto death.WHAT!!! She did NOT resist having SEX! She tryed to get a man off her who was GOING TO RAPE HER!!! She didn’t try to be killed! It’s the mans fault she died not hers. He was the one who killed her.
We honour her because she had the courage to forgive someone who killed and attempted to rape her.
Michael
cheddar
P
proudnifi
Guest
She maintained her purity by choosing death? Since when do rape victims lose their purity?
M
mosher
Guest
And here inlies the problem. My room mate and I are milling over this and can’t seem for figure it out.
P
proudnifi
Guest
Perhaps the general focus on her “maintaining purity” is something that crept in based on society’s (wrong and hopefully outdated) tendency to blame the victim. Historically, women have often been blamed for not resisting enough (ie, they lived).
This does not take away from St. Maria’s heroic attempts at self-defense and her ability to forgive her attacker.
I, too, am feeling a little puzzled.
This does not take away from St. Maria’s heroic attempts at self-defense and her ability to forgive her attacker.
I, too, am feeling a little puzzled.
M
MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
No pressure on me here. I just have to prove I know my namesake perfectly! 
First things first: being raped is not a sin, nor is it the victim’s fault. The attacker is ALWAYS 100% at fault. Even if you put yourself in a bad situation, though stupid, it is NEVER YOUR FAULT NOR YOUR SIN!!!
Secodnly, martyrdom isn’t required. You get to be a saint for it, which means you went above and beyond the call of Catholic duty. Peter denied Jesus rather than be ridiculed or killed and he didn’t go to hell. He did lie, which was a sin he had to repent for, but wanting to live is not a sin.
Maria Goretti is a martyr, therefore she is recognized for her death. She fought back, even unto violence and death, so as not to let her VIRGINITY be stolen from her. Not her purity. She was pure because she cared about her virginity and didn’t sleep around.
As for martyrdom being like suicide, suicide is killing yourself. She didn’t want to die and wasn’t trying to die. She was trying not to be raped. It wasn’t her fault that the neighbor picked up a knife and started stabbing her. It wouldn’t have been her fault if she got raped and it wasn’t her fault that she got stabbed. She even cried out for help, but unfortunately her mother was too far out in the field to hear her. And then she got stabbed some more and she died before anyone could get to her to help her. She fought even when being stabbed. She in no way brought on her own death.
If a guy breaks into your house and shoots you, it’s not suicide. If you run into the road to save a child from a speeding vehicle, it’s not suicide even if know you might die. Suicide is willful death, if you tell somebody to kill you or kill yourself. If someone else kills you and that was not your intention and you have the will to live, it isn’t suicide. If you have the will to live, but do something corageous that ends in your death, it still isn’t suicide.
How was that?
?
First things first: being raped is not a sin, nor is it the victim’s fault. The attacker is ALWAYS 100% at fault. Even if you put yourself in a bad situation, though stupid, it is NEVER YOUR FAULT NOR YOUR SIN!!!
Secodnly, martyrdom isn’t required. You get to be a saint for it, which means you went above and beyond the call of Catholic duty. Peter denied Jesus rather than be ridiculed or killed and he didn’t go to hell. He did lie, which was a sin he had to repent for, but wanting to live is not a sin.
Maria Goretti is a martyr, therefore she is recognized for her death. She fought back, even unto violence and death, so as not to let her VIRGINITY be stolen from her. Not her purity. She was pure because she cared about her virginity and didn’t sleep around.
As for martyrdom being like suicide, suicide is killing yourself. She didn’t want to die and wasn’t trying to die. She was trying not to be raped. It wasn’t her fault that the neighbor picked up a knife and started stabbing her. It wouldn’t have been her fault if she got raped and it wasn’t her fault that she got stabbed. She even cried out for help, but unfortunately her mother was too far out in the field to hear her. And then she got stabbed some more and she died before anyone could get to her to help her. She fought even when being stabbed. She in no way brought on her own death.
If a guy breaks into your house and shoots you, it’s not suicide. If you run into the road to save a child from a speeding vehicle, it’s not suicide even if know you might die. Suicide is willful death, if you tell somebody to kill you or kill yourself. If someone else kills you and that was not your intention and you have the will to live, it isn’t suicide. If you have the will to live, but do something corageous that ends in your death, it still isn’t suicide.
How was that?
?
C
crusader4life
Guest
You also got to remember that the process of declaring sainthood is long and hard and situations like these are considered during this process.
There are saints who didn’t go through life-threatening situations like Maria, but there was something about their lives that made them stand out in a God-given and humble sort of way. To make my point…if you were to take Maria’s brutal death out of her life and out of her story, she would still be considered a saint due to her zealous holy life, and the miracles God performed through her. I’m pretty confident that Maria’s story has been disected enough to know that she died fighting for God’s will of chasity, and not so much for her own will for purity. (Catch my drift on what I’m saying???)
Also remember: There are many undeclared saints out there in the world! and there are millions more in Heaven!
There are saints who didn’t go through life-threatening situations like Maria, but there was something about their lives that made them stand out in a God-given and humble sort of way. To make my point…if you were to take Maria’s brutal death out of her life and out of her story, she would still be considered a saint due to her zealous holy life, and the miracles God performed through her. I’m pretty confident that Maria’s story has been disected enough to know that she died fighting for God’s will of chasity, and not so much for her own will for purity. (Catch my drift on what I’m saying???)
Also remember: There are many undeclared saints out there in the world! and there are millions more in Heaven!
D
deb1
Guest
When I was 16, I went to spend a summer with my Aunt and Uncle in Florida. I had expressed my reluctance to go to my mother. My cousin-my age-had acted in an inappropriate matter to me the last time that I had seen him. My mother sent us kids anyway. She liked to party and had told us that we were in her way.
While at my Aunt and Uncle’s, my cousin made passes at me but I refused them. I did not tell anyone. Don’t ask me why. I think that I had the impression that I would get in trouble. You have to realize that I had been told all my life that I was a whore or slut by my mom. So going to an adult with a problem was not something that I normally did. I was still a virgen by the way, my mom was very verbally abusive.
My Aunt and Uncle worked in the day, leaving my cousin, myself and my sister and brother alone. One afternoon, while my sister and brother were outside playing, my cousin literally scooped me up and carried me into his room. I was struggling at this point. He threw me on the bed. When I opened my mouth to scream, he cocked his fist back and said in a very threatening manner…“Go ahead and scream.” So, I froze. He was a football player and much, much larger then I was. I didn’t fight back, I just laid there and cried. He asked me at one point, “Haven’t you always dreamed of being raped?”
The only thing that stopped him from actual intercourse, was the noise of his sister returning home early from her college classes. He leaped off of me and I ran into my bedroom. In all honesty, while the situation occured, I could not think. It was like my brain had just stopped and all I felt was intense fear.
I didn’t tell his family, but lived the next days in fear. His mother had taken the rest of our time with her off from work. So, I guess that he never had the opportunity to finish with me. When I returned home, I told my mother. Her response was. “Why didn’t you struggle? Why didn’t you scream? Your sister and brother where outside, they would have come in and helped you. Well, this kind of thing happens to women all the time. Get over it.”
.
I admire this particular saint very much. But I think that she would be saddened to hear anyone suggest that a rape victim who didn’t fight back was cooperating with their attacker.
While at my Aunt and Uncle’s, my cousin made passes at me but I refused them. I did not tell anyone. Don’t ask me why. I think that I had the impression that I would get in trouble. You have to realize that I had been told all my life that I was a whore or slut by my mom. So going to an adult with a problem was not something that I normally did. I was still a virgen by the way, my mom was very verbally abusive.
My Aunt and Uncle worked in the day, leaving my cousin, myself and my sister and brother alone. One afternoon, while my sister and brother were outside playing, my cousin literally scooped me up and carried me into his room. I was struggling at this point. He threw me on the bed. When I opened my mouth to scream, he cocked his fist back and said in a very threatening manner…“Go ahead and scream.” So, I froze. He was a football player and much, much larger then I was. I didn’t fight back, I just laid there and cried. He asked me at one point, “Haven’t you always dreamed of being raped?”
The only thing that stopped him from actual intercourse, was the noise of his sister returning home early from her college classes. He leaped off of me and I ran into my bedroom. In all honesty, while the situation occured, I could not think. It was like my brain had just stopped and all I felt was intense fear.
I didn’t tell his family, but lived the next days in fear. His mother had taken the rest of our time with her off from work. So, I guess that he never had the opportunity to finish with me. When I returned home, I told my mother. Her response was. “Why didn’t you struggle? Why didn’t you scream? Your sister and brother where outside, they would have come in and helped you. Well, this kind of thing happens to women all the time. Get over it.”
.
I admire this particular saint very much. But I think that she would be saddened to hear anyone suggest that a rape victim who didn’t fight back was cooperating with their attacker.
D
deb1
Guest
Joan M:
It is impossible for anyone to know how they will react in any given situation.
Let us pray that you are never faced with an attack.
It is impossible for anyone to know how they will react in any given situation.
M
MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
You are very, very right. It’s horrifying to me to know that people are blaming VICTIMS now for the sins of the attacker. With that mindset, how can you respect the saints or Jesus Christ Himself? Jesus never once fought with His killers and when His apostles did, He commanded them to stop. So was Jesus, the Son of God, sinful? Were the apostles sinful because they didn’t disobey Jesus to keep fighting?
I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be raped and my sincerest condolences and prayers go out to all those who do. You are truly stronger and braver than the rest of us and you deserve our respect, not out foolish accusations.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
I have about 101 thoughts about this thread and I wonder if I’ll be able to articulate even one.
This is probably the most extreme example of prudishness. And prudishness is not a virtue. Those who see impurity where there is none are dealing with impurity themselves.
This is one of the most ignorant, thoughtless, potentially damaging ideas I have ever heard about any topic. This isn’t the legal defintion of rape or the church’s. Rape is rape because the perpetrator uses coersion or force to sexually violate another. Don’t you dare put the blame on the victim EVER. People don’t “submit” to rape (duh!); “submisssion” to rape is a fantasy.
Again, wrong. Where did you get this stuff? As someone above said, rape is not sex.
Again, ignorant, thoughtless and hurtful. Do you have any idea how many victims blame themselves after an assault? And how this undermines her healing? And that it’s just plain wrong?
This is probably the most extreme example of prudishness. And prudishness is not a virtue. Those who see impurity where there is none are dealing with impurity themselves.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
Another of my 101 thoughts…
On a retreat I once went on there was a talk on our spirituality and how closely connected it is to our sexuality. At the time I thought is was interesting and it really struck a chord (or I would not have remembered it this long).
After reading Christopher West’s unpacking of Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body this started to really make sense.
Back to topic (sort of)…I think it’s interesting that someone would even consider raping another… I mean it’s like they know it’s going to wound the deepest part of someone…their heart, mind and soul…who they are…who God made them to be. That they would take an act that is supposed to bond one to another in marriage, perhaps bring another soul into being, would be used to degrade them…that’s evil.
On a retreat I once went on there was a talk on our spirituality and how closely connected it is to our sexuality. At the time I thought is was interesting and it really struck a chord (or I would not have remembered it this long).
After reading Christopher West’s unpacking of Pope JPII’s Theology of the Body this started to really make sense.
Back to topic (sort of)…I think it’s interesting that someone would even consider raping another… I mean it’s like they know it’s going to wound the deepest part of someone…their heart, mind and soul…who they are…who God made them to be. That they would take an act that is supposed to bond one to another in marriage, perhaps bring another soul into being, would be used to degrade them…that’s evil.
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