- Status
D
didymus
Guest
You should have done like me. Hardly anything is known about Thomas the Apostle (Didymus)No pressure on me here. I just have to prove I know my namesake perfectly!
That last is a distinction the Church has never made, or certainly never bothered to make clear. If you read the stories of virgin martyrs they all say “died to preserve her chastity” or “died to preserve her purity.”
I remember about thirty years ago I heard a priest talk approvingly about a girl who had been victim of an attempted rape (what we would now call date rape) who had fought back and managed to run away. He used the same terminology, that she “saved her chastity” and I couldn’t help wondering, wouldn’t she stil have been chaste even if she hadn’t gotten away?
Excellent!How was that??
I never meant to suggest that either martyrdom or saving another’s life should be counted as suicide. I can’t find my original post but I was responding to another poster who said she hoped if someone attacked her she’d fight him to the last so all he’d be left with to rape was her dead body or something like that.
Maybe because I know rape survivors whom God has given the strength to go on, who are a blessing to everyone who knows them, I really find it difficult to believe that death is the better alternative.
As for Maria Goretti herself, I do no want to detract anything from her, or her holiness.
I DO have a problem with the Church making her patroness of rape victims. It’s an outright insult, rubbing salt into their wounds. Maria’s story offers more solace to rapists and murderers, showing them that there is always hope for redemption, than it does to rape survivors.
If Maria had lost her struggle against Alessandro Sernella and he had raped her I’m sure she would never have been canonised no matter how holy she was.
But then she would have been a more fit patroness for rape victims.
She’s a martyr, of course, because she died of the wounds she suffered. But she lived for two days after the attack. Perhaps with better medical care she would have recovered. She might have lived to an old age physically disigfured and emotionally scarred, perhaps lonely and unmarried because no man wanted her – not just because the scars had ruined her looks but her reputation had been unjustly damaged in spite of the fact that she had fought and preserved her virginity. Would she have been able to forgive then? Quite possibly, but I’m sure it would have been more difficult.
As I said, I am not trying to detract from Maria, just pointing out that she did not have to suffer the experiences that rape survivors go through, which to me makes her a poor patroness. Hardly her fault, of course
F
fix
Guest
Right.One may be raped and lose one’s virginity, but that does not mean that loss is the fault of the victim. Yet, the virginity is still lost.
This great saint, who I pray to often, is given to us an an example to follow and aspire to. Must we give up our life if attacked, no, but that she went above and beyond is heroic virtue and should be held in great esteem.
M
MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
Though she did die, she did the greatest thing that a rape victim could ever do: she forgave her attacker. I agree that having to live after a rape attack does take TREMENDOUS courage and strength and grace! Making Maria Goretti patroness of rape victims is not an insult. It’s not to say that they should have died. It’s to have a role model of forgiveness for the victims. They can never be truly healed until they forgive (both themselves and their attacker). If Maria Goretti could pray so hard for her attacker that he converted and became an excellent Catholic, she is a model of forgiveness.
The church never idly or vengefully choses these patron saints. There is a purpose behind it and God is driving that purpose.
M
MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
Bruised Reed:
Are you single? 
YOU RULE!!!
Are you single?
P
proudnifi
Guest
I am still feeling uncomfortable with the idea that she is seen as going “above and beyond” for giving up her life over her virginity.
If someone threatened my life (or someone else’s) and insisted that I steal a car, I’m going to steal that car. Or, give them my car. I don’t know if she was wrong to insist on death before “dishonor”, but I don’t see it as the more correct choice either.
She was a heroic person with amazing charity. But I think that certain points in her story historically received undue attention.
If someone threatened my life (or someone else’s) and insisted that I steal a car, I’m going to steal that car. Or, give them my car. I don’t know if she was wrong to insist on death before “dishonor”, but I don’t see it as the more correct choice either.
She was a heroic person with amazing charity. But I think that certain points in her story historically received undue attention.
M
MariaGorettiGrl
Guest
Why? Because it’s scary to die. Even to those who believe in the after-life, it’s so unknown and we’d rather just stay here where we know the routine. (and stealing a car is very different than stealing a body)
Maria Goretti put her life in the hands of God. By doing this, she was expressing the same thing Christ was during the agony in the garden: “God, if this trial can pass me by, please let it! But if this is your will, I will submit to it!” Maria fought back, knowing that if it was in God’s plan for her to live, she would live and if it was in His plan for her to die, she would die.
You could just as easily question Jesus’ death. All He had to do was stop preaching and He would have gotten to live. He could have also taken Himself down from the cross. God could have opened the gates of Heaven any way He wanted to. But He did it through death because there is no greater love than laying down your life for a friend. Jesus laid His down for us and Maria Goretti laid hers down for Jesus!
Would you look at it differently if it had been another girl and Maria Goretti walked in on that girl being raped? What if Maria fought to the death to fight for that other girl? Would you then still see it as a wasteful act? I certainly wouldn’t. And if it’s noble to fight for another’s virginity, surely it’s something we could also fight for for ourselves?
Our bodies are a temple according to God. God told us to take care of them. Maria decided it was worth it to keep a man from violating her temple. And it was not man that decided she was a saint for that. It was God and He revealed it to us.
Also, if any of you questioning this are guys, it may be harder for you to understand. Being raped is far beyond dishonor. It horrifies me and I’ve never even been in a situation where it was ever a plausible concern. For some, it’s a fate worse than death. To others, death is worth it to defend ourselves. To Maria, it was a chance to use her neighbor’s evil as a spreading of salvation. She even saved her attacker.
Now I’m starting to repeat myself, but I really can’t understand doubting the courage of someone who puts their life that much in God’s hands.
L
Lisa_Marie
Guest
Ok, I’ve been reading this thread for quite a while now. The posts containing comments about “cooperating” with the rapist by not getting killed litterally made me sick to my stomach. It has haunted me for the last few days. THANK YOU to those of you who disagreed with statements like these.
I’m going to share a little about myself in hopes that no one reading this thread will ever speak about this subject without carefully considering the pain their words can cause.
When I was 17 I was in a foreign country working in an orphanage as a missions project. I was kidnapped and held by a group of men for almost 2 months. During that time I was raped and tortured. I fought until I had no more strength left. I tried to escape, but was always caught and punished. I ~BEGGED~ God to please let me die.
Once I had a chance to pick up a gun. For a few seconds I had two choices: shoot him or shoot myself. I couldn’t kill someone, knowing they would go to hell. I raised the gun to my head. I WANTED to die. Suddenly my mind was filled with the knowledge that God didn’t want me to commit suicide. It would be wrong. I had to fight to chose NOT to kill myself. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done, along with the choice to never hate. It all took only seconds, but it seemed forever before the gun was grabbed back out of my hand.
MariaGorettiGrl said:
Being raped is far beyond dishonor. For some, it’s a fate worse than death. Your post is true! Thank you for your sympathy. But if I may, let me use it as an example of how rape victims think? When you went on to say:
To others, death is worth it to defend ourselves.
Words like these are easily thought to mean “If I cared ENOUGH I would have found a way to die. You believe the rape was my fault after all. Maybe it was.”
Others here have expressed the opinion that it isn’t “neccesary” to fight a rapist until death, but a sign of heroic virtue. Oh, those words hurt! They say to a person who has been raped, “If you were only MORE HOLY, MORE VIRTUOUS, it wouldn’t have happened! God would have answered your prayers for death if you had REALLY meant them!”
You may not know this, but many christians really DO believe that God never would allow an innocent person to be raped. And they say it. And they even preach it. That includes “Christian” therapists. I had several who actually brought me to almost commit suicide again because of their insistance that God would have protected me if my prayers had been sincere. Some part of me must have really wanted it all to happen. If this isn’t what you mean, PLEASE be careful to not sound like it is!
Like me, many rape victims WANTED to die, but God took that choice out of their hands for His own purposes. I know in my case it was so those who attacked me would have someone to pray for them.
I was greatly comforted by some writings by St. Augustine to nuns who had been raped when their convent was attacked. He spoke quite eloquently about their purity in the eyes of God. He never even hinted that those who had been killed in the attacks were more “holy”.
I need to send this before the forum times me out. Once again, THANK YOU to those of you who have been kind. And to everyone, please remember to be careful with your words next time. Don’t say something is church teaching when it might be just your opinion. You may not know the pain being caused to someone who’s life is already a burden they wish they didn’t have to carry. God bless you all. Lisa
I’m going to share a little about myself in hopes that no one reading this thread will ever speak about this subject without carefully considering the pain their words can cause.
When I was 17 I was in a foreign country working in an orphanage as a missions project. I was kidnapped and held by a group of men for almost 2 months. During that time I was raped and tortured. I fought until I had no more strength left. I tried to escape, but was always caught and punished. I ~BEGGED~ God to please let me die.
Once I had a chance to pick up a gun. For a few seconds I had two choices: shoot him or shoot myself. I couldn’t kill someone, knowing they would go to hell. I raised the gun to my head. I WANTED to die. Suddenly my mind was filled with the knowledge that God didn’t want me to commit suicide. It would be wrong. I had to fight to chose NOT to kill myself. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done, along with the choice to never hate. It all took only seconds, but it seemed forever before the gun was grabbed back out of my hand.
MariaGorettiGrl said:
Being raped is far beyond dishonor. For some, it’s a fate worse than death. Your post is true! Thank you for your sympathy. But if I may, let me use it as an example of how rape victims think? When you went on to say:
To others, death is worth it to defend ourselves.
Words like these are easily thought to mean “If I cared ENOUGH I would have found a way to die. You believe the rape was my fault after all. Maybe it was.”
Others here have expressed the opinion that it isn’t “neccesary” to fight a rapist until death, but a sign of heroic virtue. Oh, those words hurt! They say to a person who has been raped, “If you were only MORE HOLY, MORE VIRTUOUS, it wouldn’t have happened! God would have answered your prayers for death if you had REALLY meant them!”
You may not know this, but many christians really DO believe that God never would allow an innocent person to be raped. And they say it. And they even preach it. That includes “Christian” therapists. I had several who actually brought me to almost commit suicide again because of their insistance that God would have protected me if my prayers had been sincere. Some part of me must have really wanted it all to happen. If this isn’t what you mean, PLEASE be careful to not sound like it is!
Like me, many rape victims WANTED to die, but God took that choice out of their hands for His own purposes. I know in my case it was so those who attacked me would have someone to pray for them.
I was greatly comforted by some writings by St. Augustine to nuns who had been raped when their convent was attacked. He spoke quite eloquently about their purity in the eyes of God. He never even hinted that those who had been killed in the attacks were more “holy”.
I need to send this before the forum times me out. Once again, THANK YOU to those of you who have been kind. And to everyone, please remember to be careful with your words next time. Don’t say something is church teaching when it might be just your opinion. You may not know the pain being caused to someone who’s life is already a burden they wish they didn’t have to carry. God bless you all. Lisa
D
deb1
Guest
Lisa Marie, I am so sorry for the pain that you have suffered. I think that many of the people who have made certain comments on this thread have probably not thought their words through before they posted.
I admire you greatly for praying for your attackers. That takes a special kind of strength. You’re an example to us all.
I admire you greatly for praying for your attackers. That takes a special kind of strength. You’re an example to us all.
F
fix
Guest
Code:
"Maria Goretti resembled St. Agnes in her characteristic virtue of Fortitude. This virtue of Fortitude is at the same time the safeguard as well as the fruit of virginity. Our new beata was strong and wise and fully aware of her dignity. That is why she professed death before sin. She was not twelve years of age when she shed her blood as a martyr, nevertheless what foresight, what energy she showed when aware of danger! She was on the watch day and night to defend her chastity, making use of all the means at her disposal, persevering in prayer and entrusting the lily of her purity to the special protection of Mary, the Virgin of virgins. Let us admire the fortitude of the pure of heart. It is a mysterious strength far above the limits of human nature and even above ordinary Christian virtue."
F
fix
Guest
Pope John Paul II has often commented on the virtues and example of St. Maria Goretti. In a Homily commemorating the 100th Anniversary of the virgin-martyr’s birth, he emphasized her importance for our own troubled times:
Look at her especially, adolescents and young people. Like her, be capable of defending your purity of heart and body; be committed to the struggle against evil and sin, nourishing your communion with the Lord through prayer, the daily practice of mortification, and scrupulously observing the commandments. Do not be afraid to take a counter-cultural stance, to reject the world’s idols when it is a question of courageously witnessing by your lives that you belong to a chaste and poor Christ. Always esteem and love purity and virginity.
“Not only is he a martyr one who refuses to deny a truth of the faith, but he who dies for the sake of some virtue, or to avoid sin against any commandment.”
mariagoretti.org/likoudisarticle3.htm
Code:
"She did not flee from the voice of the Holy Spirit, from the voice of her conscience. She rather chose death. Through the gift of fortitude the Holy Spirit helped her to 'judge"- and to choose with her young spirit. She chose death when there was no other way to defend her virginal purity. Maria Goretti's blood, shed in a sacrifice of total fidelity to God, reminds us that we are also called to offer ourselves to the Father. We are called to fulfill the divine will in order to be found holy and pleasing in His sight. Our call to holiness, which is the vocation of every baptized person, is encouraged by the example of this young martyr.
Code:
"In her silent heroism, Maria Goretti is a teacher of truth, consistency, and true love. She teaches us to rediscover in Christ the value of the truth which frees the human being from the slavery to material realities, to cultivate a taste for authentic beauty and the good which overcomes evil.
"Today, we thank the Blessed Trinity for this young life, and for the martyrdom which crowned it. Through her life and heroic death, the Son of man was glorified at the beginning of our century. 'Blessed be God in His Saints'." (*L'Osservatore Romano- *English ed., 10/7/91)
In his beautiful Homily, Pope John Paul II may be said to have summarized once again why the Catholic Church has canonized "a simple country girl who was born poor". It was for her deep faith in Christ, for her ardent love of Christ and His Virgin-Mother, for her fervent witness to the Gospel-virtue of purity, and for her heroic fortitude in preferring death rather than to commit sin in submitting to molestation and rape. For all these reasons the Church of Christ has honored her as a "virgin-martyr". To anyone who would question her designation as a martyr, the Church replies with the words of her greatest Doctor, St. Thomas Aquinas:
Code:
In what has been termed "the modern world's conspiracy against morality", St. Maria Goretti's example remains a magnificent witness to Christian truth. The Church assures us that her heavenly intercession is powerful before the throne of the Lamb of God. When she cried out to Alessandro, "No, it is a sin! God does not want it! You'll go to Hell!", she spoke as a teacher of the faith, reminding all those who are too eager to deny the reality of sin of yet another truth of the Gospel: namely, the possibility of eternal damnation.
An American biographer of St. Maria Goretti has fittingly corrected a misunderstanding of the Saint that has been made by those seeking to "limit the Saint's influence over the hearts of the young":
P
puzzleannie
Guest
because a saint exhibited heroic virtue in a given situation does not mean that everyone, or every Catholic is required to be equally heroic. another example is Blessed Gianni, who chose to forego lifesaving cancer treatment for the sake of her unborn child, although the Church would have allowed removal of the cancerous organ even though it would have had the unintended evil consequence of ending the life of her baby.
There is absolutely no sin whatever incurred by the innocent victim of rape, or incest, or any other violent crime. Law enforcement people differ in their opinions on whether or not it is prudent for a person to resist the attacker or to submit, and no one incurs any guilt for doing either. Women do not passively cooperate in the rape if they submit, indeed if a weapon is involved that would probably be the prudential choice. To suggest otherwise is a distortion of Catholic moral teaching. And not, because this disgusting lie always comes up in such a discussion, women DO NOT secretly desire rape and “ask for it”.
There is absolutely no sin whatever incurred by the innocent victim of rape, or incest, or any other violent crime. Law enforcement people differ in their opinions on whether or not it is prudent for a person to resist the attacker or to submit, and no one incurs any guilt for doing either. Women do not passively cooperate in the rape if they submit, indeed if a weapon is involved that would probably be the prudential choice. To suggest otherwise is a distortion of Catholic moral teaching. And not, because this disgusting lie always comes up in such a discussion, women DO NOT secretly desire rape and “ask for it”.
F
fix
Guest
I have pointed this out several times and posters still misinterpret these words. What St. Gorretti and Blessed Gianni did in no way means that others who chose differently are not virtuous or immoral. I guess emotions may blind us to these things.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
Thanks! Indeed I am. I’m also a chick…do I still rock? Pleasepleaseplease say yes. I never rule on this forum. mightybigpoutYOU RULE!!!
Oh, and it’s Saint Gianna now; she was canonized in 2004.
D
deb1
Guest
Bruised Reed:
**There now stop pouting.
**YOU RULE, BRUISED REED!!!
**There now stop pouting.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
just to clarify, this is not the only reason Maria Goretti was canonized a saint. Even if she had suffered in this way, that alone would not have been enough to raise her to sainthood, but investigation into her entire brief life produced such evidence of virtue and devotion, not to mention her forgiveness and prayers for her attacker, which resulted in his convernsion while in prison, and it is her virtue and holiness which are recognized in her canonization.
M
MonicaC
Guest
Hello all,
I too am disturbed by the all the talk of how one must feel or how one must act will being raped. Until something like this happens you have no idea how you might act. Yes it is very easy to say that you would and should fight back but for me it was not that easy after awhile I just kind of left my own body and watched from a distance. St. Marie Goretti life and death helped me personally get through my own rape and to learn to forgive my attacker. I think this is why she is a Saint because today almost a hundred years later she is still helping victims and attackers see the light.
I too am disturbed by the all the talk of how one must feel or how one must act will being raped. Until something like this happens you have no idea how you might act. Yes it is very easy to say that you would and should fight back but for me it was not that easy after awhile I just kind of left my own body and watched from a distance. St. Marie Goretti life and death helped me personally get through my own rape and to learn to forgive my attacker. I think this is why she is a Saint because today almost a hundred years later she is still helping victims and attackers see the light.
S
Sandtigress
Guest
I don’t think that the Church is asking us to chose between rape or murder. Her attacker pressed her for sex, and told her that he would kill her if she did not give in to him. In other words, if she did not willingly have sex with him, of her own volition. This is the sin that she refrained from committing. Had he then proceeded to rape her, she would still have refrained from committing the sin of fornication because she would have been forced. But he gave her a choice - willingly fornicate with him or die. Maria Goretti could have chosen to give in to this man to preserve her life, after all, she was only a child, she had many years ahead of her. She chose death rather than sin against God, thus making her a martyr. I find her story very inspiring, that one so young can love God so much as to willingly choose Him over life. May we all hold to our morals like St. Maria Goretti!
C
Catholic2003
Guest
This is a strange use of the word “willingly”. To my mind, no action can be willing if the only alternative is death.
Perhaps the standard analogy will help. An armed mugger goes up to a man walking alone in a dark alley and says, “Either give me your wallet willingly, or I will kill you.” The man, not wanting to die, hands his wallet over to the mugger, who then leaves.
Later on, the police arrest the mugger for armed robbery. The mugger protests, saying the man gave him the wallet “willingly”, so it was a gift, not a robbery.
I’m sorry, but I don’t agree with the mugger’s defense. This is a complete misuse of the word “willingly”, as it is in any situation where the only alternative is death.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
What version of this story do you have? I’ve never read that Alessandro gave Maria an ultimatum.
Again, where have you read he gave her a “choice”? And do really consider rape a choice? Do you understand what rape is? As I said above - ignorant, thoughtless, hurtful.
She could have chosen to give in? And this would have saved her life? We don’t know that. Alessandro could have raped AND murdered her.
I’m going to go out on a limb and assume all posters I quoted above and those who agree with them are Pro-Life. I wonder if you realize how your line of thinking may steer a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape toward abortion? She would now have to be concerned that some people believe she is responcible for her pregnancy due to rape; after all she’s alive isn’t she?
In the same vein, I have heard and read of Pro-Life people who think rape is a legitimate reason to have an abortion. (Because of all the usual reasons- if you don’t know I’ll fill in the blanks later.) But I think that there is something deeper going on.
I think that those people don’t want to have to deal with the woman’s shame and pain. They would rather bury it instead of supporting her and looking her in the face and acknowledging “it’s not your fault”. If you think a victim of rape is somehow responsible you can’t say this. And I think that one of the reason’s people think abortion is okay in cases of rape and incest is because they think deep down that somehow the shame is hers and therefore should be able to get rid of her shame. A rape victim has NOTHING to be ashamed of.
Certain cultures (Muslims come to mind) that believe that rape brings shame on the family. It sullies the “Family Honor”. Why do they think this? Why should we think they other cultures are the only ones that hold to this idea? Even if it’s on a smaller scale and even denied.
Google “family honor” and see what you come up with. Lot’s of family honor killings. Lot’s of blaming the victim. And you will also find a chastity apostolate with the name of “Family Honor.” I hate that name. It’s like a kick to the gut when I hear that phrase.
- Status