Sex Outside of Marriage and Hell

[Reilly08]

Please consider the following 2 scenarios

Scenario 1:
Steve, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 women in his life. He goes to confession and confesses these sins right before his death. When he dies he goes to heaven because he confessed his mortal sins.

John, also an unmarried man, is a very holy Catholic and has never had premarital sex. However, one day a supermodel seduces him. He knows it is a sin to have sex with her but gives into temptation this one time and has sex with her anyway. Before he can get to confession he is hit by a bus and killed. When he dies he goes to hell FOR ETERNITY because he died with an unconfessed mortal sin.

If I understand correctly, this is what the Roman Catholic church says would happen to these two individuals. Does this make any sense to you?

Scenario 2:
Bob, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 single women (none married) in his life. He knows that sex outside of marriage is a sin and regularly goes to confession to confess these sins. However, he continues to give into temptation and have sex outside of marriage. Sex is Bob’s only vice in life. Bob is a doctor in an emergency room and saves lives on a daily basis. Bob makes very good money but lives frugally and donates a substantial portion of his salary to charity. Bob goes to church on every Sunday and Holy day. Bob is always very kind to everyone that he interacts with. Do you think Bob should go to heaven or hell?

With these two scenarios, I am trying to make the point that some of the church’s teachings regarding mortal sins and where we go in the afterlife just don’t make any sense. I don’t want to be a cafeteria catholic but I am an intelligent person with common sense. My common sense tells me that God looks at a person’s entire life, weighing the good and the bad, when making a decision about an individual’s place in the afterlife. What are your thoughts?

 

[BillP]

Please consider the following 2 scenarios

Scenario 1:
If I understand correctly, this is what the Roman Catholic church says would happen to these two individuals. Does this make any sense to you?

The Church doesn’t “say what would happen” to any particular person. Even given your example we have no insight into the status of the second guy. Perhaps the temptation represented by the model was genuinely irresistible to him or perhaps he didn’t fully consent, or well there are any number of things that could reduce his culpability.

Scenario 2:
Bob, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 single women (none married) in his life. He knows that sex outside of marriage is a sin and regularly goes to confession to confess these sins. However, he continues to give into temptation and have sex outside of marriage. Sex is Bob’s only vice in life. Bob is a doctor in an emergency room and saves lives on a daily basis. Bob makes very good money but lives frugally and donates a substantial portion of his salary to charity. Bob goes to church on every Sunday and Holy day. Bob is always very kind to everyone that he interacts with. Do you think Bob should go to heaven or hell?

With these two scenarios, I am trying to make the point that some of the church’s teachings regarding mortal sins and where we go in the afterlife just don’t make any sense. I don’t want to be a cafeteria catholic but I am an intelligent person with common sense. My common sense tells me that God looks at a person’s entire life, weighing the good and the bad, when making a decision about an individual’s place in the afterlife. What are your thoughts?

Here’s what I think. We know God loves us and that he is just. So we just have to trust him.

 

[zach_dunn]

Please consider the following 2 scenarios

Scenario 1:
Steve, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 women in his life. He goes to confession and confesses these sins right before his death. When he dies he goes to heaven because he confessed his mortal sins.

John, also an unmarried man, is a very holy Catholic and has never had premarital sex. However, one day a supermodel seduces him. He knows it is a sin to have sex with her but gives into temptation this one time and has sex with her anyway. Before he can get to confession he is hit by a bus and killed. When he dies he goes to hell FOR ETERNITY because he died with an unconfessed mortal sin.

There is more information needed in these two situations, the Church has put God’s word out there, we have to accept it and live by it.

Scenario 1: Did Steve know that premarital sex is a mortal sin? Was he genuinely sorry for his act and was going to stop afterward? Many things have to be taken into account.

Scenario 2: As has been asked before, is this fully consensual? If so, and he knows that it is a sin, than he actively rejected God and removed all sanctifying grace from his soul thus making himself incompatible with God’s love and heaven. That’s not against common sense, it IS common sense.

If I understand correctly, this is what the Roman Catholic church says would happen to these two individuals. Does this make any sense to you?

Provide more information and I’ll respond.

Scenario 2:
Bob, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 single women (none married) in his life. He knows that sex outside of marriage is a sin and regularly goes to confession to confess these sins. However, he continues to give into temptation and have sex outside of marriage. Sex is Bob’s only vice in life. Bob is a doctor in an emergency room and saves lives on a daily basis. Bob makes very good money but lives frugally and donates a substantial portion of his salary to charity. Bob goes to church on every Sunday and Holy day. Bob is always very kind to everyone that he interacts with. Do you think Bob should go to heaven or hell?

As I said before, it seems that Bob actively rejects God and is not sincere in his confessions considering he repeatedly rebreaks God’s laws. If he is in fact not sorry for his actions (this seems like what’s going on) than he has no sanctifying grace in his soul and is simply not fit for heaven. This is his own doing, God cannot change His laws, He makes them known to us through His Church and we are bound to accept them.

With these two scenarios, I am trying to make the point that some of the church’s teachings regarding mortal sins and where we go in the afterlife just don’t make any sense. I don’t want to be a cafeteria catholic but I am an intelligent person with common sense. My common sense tells me that God looks at a person’s entire life, weighing the good and the bad, when making a decision about an individual’s place in the afterlife. What are your thoughts?

My thoughts: the Church’s teachings regarding sin are completely commonsensical. Yes, God takes an entire person’s being into consideration, but for the most part we need more information to determine whether or not these people were committing mortal sins.

 

[Reilly08]

Assume all 3 people committed mortal sins, sorry if I didn’t make that clear. They all knew premarital sex was a sin but had it anyway and it was all fully consentual.

Just because Steve continues to have premarital sex after confession, it doesn’t mean that he wasn’t genuinely sorry when he went to confession. Lots of alchoholics get drunk, do horrible things, and are genuinely sorry for their actions when they sober up. However, they will continue to get drunk and do the same horrible things in the future (regardless of how sorry they are) because they can’t stop regardless of their intentions. I’ll tell a lie, go to confession and confess that I told a lie with genuine remorse and the intention not to lie again in the future. However, at some point in the future I will inevitably lie again out of my own free will regardless of how hard I try not to, and I’ll know it’s wrong when I do it making it a mortal sin. I’ll inevitably lie again because God made me this way, he made me a sinner. Now, if I don’t confess this mortal sin before I die, the Roman Catholic church teaches that I’ll go to hell, right?

The church’s perspective on this makes it look like God sets us all up to fail. He creates sinners and places us in a world full of the temptation to sin. We know we’re sinning (well, many of us do) but we consentingly sin anyway (making it mortal) because we’re sinners. We can try hard and reduce our sinful ways but we will never completely stop them. It’s in our nature, it’s how we were created, it’s who we are, it’s what we were created to do.** And if we don’t go to confession or get the annointing of the sick sacrament right before we die** (so we die with our mortal sins forgiven) then we are going to hell for doing what we were created to do! I’m exhauseted, discuss.

 

[puzzleannie]

If I understand correctly, this is what the Roman Catholic church says would happen to these two individuals. Does this make any sense to you?

?

you left out the key piece of information in each scenario, was each individual sincerely sorry and contrite for their sins, and when brought fact to face with God at death for their personal judgement did they choose to spend all eternity with God. You don’t know and I don’t know, and the Church says she does not know, what each of these individuals chose at the moment of death, so neither you nor I nor the Church can say with certainty where any of them ended up

 

[reggieM]

The church’s perspective on this makes it look like God sets us all up to fail. He creates sinners and places us in a world full of the temptation to sin. We know we’re sinning (well, many of us do) but we consentingly sin anyway (making it mortal) because we’re sinners. We can try hard and reduce our sinful ways but we will never completely stop them.

Here’s where you’ve been deceived and it sounds very much like the Devil’s own logic at work. It also sounds like you’re trying to justify something and not merely look at the truth in a calm, objective way.

Your problem is by stating that since you’re a sinner, then you will necessarily continue to commit mortal sin, and it’s impossible to stop because you are a sinner. This creates a death-spiral downwards. You assure yourself that you’re a sinner and this justifies the sin. Then you claim that you’re “trying” not to, but you’re doing something impossible.

The problem is with this notion “we’re all sinners”. This is a commonly used phrase, but it is also commonly misunderstood. For the man who is a sex-addict or a hedonist of any kind, the phrase “we’re all sinners” is more than enough to condemn him for his lack of repentance.

We are all sinners under Adam. But we are not all addicted to mortal sin – nor did God make us so that we would be. We are required to triumph over mortal sin. The excuse “we’re all sinners” will not work in this case. We have to fight against sin and we have to triumph. God gives us the grace to overcome temptations. No man can claim that God made it impossible for him to live in the state of grace.

That’s the goal. Living in the state of grace always. We say that “we’re all sinners” but this means that in our progressive battle against sin, we still fall. But the falls are less and less serious over time. We gradually learn and improve.

Blaming God for one’s own sins is not a very truthful or accurate way to look at the situation. There’s no good excuse for a person to commit a mortal sin. The idea “we’re all sinners” may be used as this excuse, but that only enslaves a person to evil behavior.

We have to work for moral-betterment all the time. Look at the saints – they rose above sin. Human nature is made to be united with God – through grace, we rise above sin and live a supernatural life. That’s what you need to focus on.

It’s in our nature, it’s how we were created, it’s who we are, it’s what we were created to do.

Again, this in incorrect. We were not created to sin – but rather, we were created to use our free-will to choose good and be fully united with God by triumphing over sin.

And if we don’t go to confession or get the annointing of the sick sacrament right before we die (so we die with our mortal sins forgiven) then we are going to hell for doing what we were created to do! I’m exhauseted, discuss.

You’ve talked yourself in circles here and again it sounds like you’re trying to justify a sinful situation by saying that “you were created that way” and that you “can’t help it”.

Plus, it’s not good to view confession as a magic act that takes away sin without any sincere committment from the believer to stop sinning. When a person repents, it has to be sincere - that’s part of the sacrament.

 

[Bbigam]

The church’s perspective on this makes it look like God sets us all up to fail. He creates sinners and places us in a world full of the temptation to sin. We know we’re sinning (well, many of us do) but we consentingly sin anyway (making it mortal) because we’re sinners. We can try hard and reduce our sinful ways but we will never completely stop them. It’s in our nature, it’s how we were created, it’s who we are, it’s what we were created to do.** And if we don’t go to confession or get the annointing of the sick sacrament right before we die** (so we die with our mortal sins forgiven) then we are going to hell for doing what we were created to do! I’m exhauseted, discuss.

First, God does not “create sinners” as such. He created all and called it good, and He gave us free will and we chose to abuse it to disobey him and become sinners - our first parents brought in original sin and we perpetuate it with personal sin. The sin is not our nature, it’s a perversion of our nature, and it is certainly not what we were created to do - we were created to love and serve God and His people.

Second, a person who dies with perfect contrition does not necessarily die in a state of mortal sin. If he could not get to confession or did not know to do so, and is truly perfectly contrite, God is merciful. On the other hand, if you die, say, with a prostitute, or not sorry for what you did, that’s kind of like dying while giving God the finger.

Sorry I don’t have references to cite but this is my understanding. Please correct me and/or cite the catechism and such if you like.

 

[Bbigam]

Your problem is by stating that since you’re a sinner, then you will necessarily continue to commit mortal sin, and it’s impossible to stop because you are a sinner. This creates a death-spiral downwards. You assure yourself that you’re a sinner and this justifies the sin. Then you claim that you’re “trying” not to, but you’re doing something impossible.

Reggie,
You’ve said better what I was trying to say. Good work!

 

[Whitacre_Girl]

Reilly

good and thought provoking questions!

I think too often we get hung up on the legality of our Catholic faith. It’s no wonder sometimes people think we have such a legalistic faith!

I fully believe that Jesus gave us the sacraments for our benefit, not to be a rule for how to get to heaven. They serve more as a guide than hard and fast rules. Living for God is a state of being, not a laundry list of dos and don’ts. Either you have a relationship with Christ (and use the sacraments to reinforce and measure that) or you are just following rules. You can follow the rules for confession and sacraments all you want, but if you don’t love God, REALLY love him, then you are lost. That’s the whole point of it all. The sacraments exist to bestow on us graces and strength when we find ourselves in despair or temptation.

 

[AngloCatholic1]

There’s NO room in heaven for mortal sin; otherwise it wouldn’t be heaven. Your claim that a man can continually engage in mortal sin over and over again (100 times?!) and still “get into” heaven because he “confessed” the sin each and every time is, well, a non sequitur. There’s no room in heaven for people like that, at least not until they’ve spent a LONG, LONG time in purgatory.

How could a man confess the SAME mortal sin that many times and STILL be deemed to be TRULY SINCERE each and every time he makes his confession? I suppose only God knows… so let’s just leave it to Him.

Now it’s true that I’m a very recent Catholic convert, so don’t quote me on this, but I was told in RCIA that if a priest is not convinced of true repentance and remorse for a sin, he CAN choose NOT to grant absolution. If this “Bob” in scenerio 2 told his priest that he had committed this same mortal sin 100 times, and then confessed it each time, I think there’s a real chance his priest might NOT consider him sincere, and might NOT grant absolution.

 

[Em_in_FL]

you left out the key piece of information in each scenario, was each individual sincerely sorry and contrite for their sins, and when brought fact to face with God at death for their personal judgement did they choose to spend all eternity with God. You don’t know and I don’t know, and the Church says she does not know, what each of these individuals chose at the moment of death, so neither you nor I nor the Church can say with certainty where any of them ended up

Exactly.

 

[NoWhereMan]

I went to confession a couple of months ago, with sins of a sexual nature. The Priest told me this, God knows man is weak, God is not out to get you, God knows your heart, God loves you just the way you are, take everything you have & are & give it to Jesus & He will make something beautiful.These are words that I a sinner like to hear, I believe this Priest represents the true nature of Our God. He is a wonderful Priest!

 

[Newbie2]

Please consider the following 2 scenarios

Scenario 1:
Steve, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 women in his life. He goes to confession and confesses these sins right before his death. When he dies he goes to heaven because he confessed his mortal sins.

Well, there’s more to salvation besides confessing one’s mortal sin.

John, also an unmarried man, is a very holy Catholic and has never had premarital sex. However, one day a supermodel seduces him. He knows it is a sin to have sex with her but gives into temptation this one time and has sex with her anyway. Before he can get to confession he is hit by a bus and killed. When he dies he goes to hell FOR ETERNITY because he died with an unconfessed mortal sin.

If he is truly sorry he can be said to have made a perfect act of contrition, which is equally as effective as his eventual confession would have been had he made it to see his priest.

If I understand correctly, this is what the Roman Catholic church says would happen to these two individuals. Does this make any sense to you?

Slightly wrong understanding.

Scenario 2:
Bob, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 single women (none married) in his life. He knows that sex outside of marriage is a sin and regularly goes to confession to confess these sins. However, he continues to give into temptation and have sex outside of marriage. Sex is Bob’s only vice in life. Bob is a doctor in an emergency room and saves lives on a daily basis. Bob makes very good money but lives frugally and donates a substantial portion of his salary to charity. Bob goes to church on every Sunday and Holy day. Bob is always very kind to everyone that he interacts with. Do you think Bob should go to heaven or hell?

Bob’s good points in blue are irrelevant in terms of his salvation; he could not earn it through his proper Christian living. If his sins are regular confessed and he is truly sorry for them, he would be forgiven, same as any other sin that anyone else commits and does again on a regular basis. As has been said, if it’s some sort of “addiction” that he struggles with, his culpability may be reduced. Only God knows.

With these two scenarios, I am trying to make the point that some of the church’s teachings regarding mortal sins and where we go in the afterlife just don’t make any sense. I don’t want to be a cafeteria catholic but I am an intelligent person with common sense. My common sense tells me that God looks at a person’s entire life, weighing the good and the bad, when making a decision about an individual’s place in the afterlife. What are your thoughts?

Your common sense is off a bit. It’s the redemptive power of Christ’s sacrifice that saves us, not some scale of good and bad…that understanding of salvation is one of the law, which Christ came to fulfill and replace. Nobody can make up for their bad with any amount of good that they do.

 

[Maso]

Please consider the following 2 scenarios

… Bob, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 single women (none married) in his life. …

… Bob makes very good money but lives frugally

That is an impossible contradiction…!

 

[alongexpected]

Please consider the following 2 scenarios

Scenario 1:
Steve, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 women in his life. He goes to confession and confesses these sins right before his death. When he dies he goes to heaven because he confessed his mortal sins.

John, also an unmarried man, is a very holy Catholic and has never had premarital sex. However, one day a supermodel seduces him. He knows it is a sin to have sex with her but gives into temptation this one time and has sex with her anyway. Before he can get to confession he is hit by a bus and killed. When he dies he goes to hell FOR ETERNITY because he died with an unconfessed mortal sin.

If I understand correctly, this is what the Roman Catholic church says would happen to these two individuals. Does this make any sense to you?

Scenario 2:
Bob, an unmarried ladies man has consensual sex with over 100 single women (none married) in his life. He knows that sex outside of marriage is a sin and regularly goes to confession to confess these sins. However, he continues to give into temptation and have sex outside of marriage. Sex is Bob’s only vice in life. Bob is a doctor in an emergency room and saves lives on a daily basis. Bob makes very good money but lives frugally and donates a substantial portion of his salary to charity. Bob goes to church on every Sunday and Holy day. Bob is always very kind to everyone that he interacts with. Do you think Bob should go to heaven or hell?

With these two scenarios, I am trying to make the point that some of the church’s teachings regarding mortal sins and where we go in the afterlife just don’t make any sense. I don’t want to be a cafeteria catholic but I am an intelligent person with common sense. My common sense tells me that God looks at a person’s entire life, weighing the good and the bad, when making a decision about an individual’s place in the afterlife. What are your thoughts?

Thank you. Common sense, and not hundreds-years-old dogma, is rampant in your thoughts.

I’ve pondered the same kind of thing many times over. It really doesn’t make sense. Or at the very least, is not fair at all.

Here’s another thought that illustrates the lack of sense of “mortal” sins and fornication Hell-sentences:

The vast majority of Catholics (and all people) have sex with their spouse many times before they’re married. Let’s say one couple, who are elderly and near death and are truly sorry for their fornication in the past, successfully confess their sins and then die.

And, like, the guy in the above post, lives much the same life at a much younger age, has sex with someone he loves but who he isn’t married to, and is suddenly killed. He apparently goes to Hell, while the older couple are off the hook.

Makes. No. Sense.

Christ himself gave us the greatest commandment. Please try and explain to me how masturbating or fornicating is NOT treating your brother how he’d like to be treated.

 

[Newbie2]

Christ himself gave us the greatest commandment. Please try and explain to me how masturbating or fornicating is NOT treating your brother how he’d like to be treated.

What does masturbating have to do with how one treats his or her fellow men or women?

Perhaps the greatest commandment is first, Love God, then love your neighbor, no?

 

[zach_dunn]

Thank you. Common sense, and not hundreds-years-old dogma, is rampant in your thoughts.

Are you insinuating that God’s truth changes with the morals of the times?! That’s absurd.

I’ve pondered the same kind of thing many times over. It really doesn’t make sense. Or at the very least, is not fair at all.

It’s not fair to say that a sinner who sins deliberately while knowing he sins will go to hell? This person has knowingly and actively rejected God, he has no place in heaven.

Here’s another thought that illustrates the lack of sense of “mortal” sins and fornication Hell-sentences:

I’m assuming you don’t like the Bible’s teaching on fornication so you just forget about it and dismiss it?

Galatians 5:19-21
“19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, 20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, 21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.”

It’s all right there in the Bible, there are plenty more passages which speak against fornication, I can post them if you want.

The vast majority of Catholics (and all people) have sex with their spouse many times before they’re married. Let’s say one couple, who are elderly and near death and are truly sorry for their fornication in the past, successfully confess their sins and then die.

And, like, the guy in the above post, lives much the same life at a much younger age, has sex with someone he loves but who he isn’t married to, and is suddenly killed. He apparently goes to Hell, while the older couple are off the hook.

Older people aren’t “off the hook,” as you said they are truly sorry for what they did and would not, IN FACT, do it again. In the second case, the young person knows full well that he is committing a mortal sin, yet he does it anyway. He knows he is rejecting God, yet he does it anyway; you’re mistake is that you assume that if the old couple was suddenly killed when they were young and doing the same thing, they would go to heaven: they wouldn’t. A sin is always a sin, just because premarital sex is ‘hip and happenin’’ does NOT mean that it is ok; a lack of moral values is what bothers me the most about today’s society.

Makes. No. Sense.

I’m sorry to hear that God’s truth does not make sense to you, perhaps my post has helped, there were many other great posts you could read.

Christ himself gave us the greatest commandment. Please try and explain to me how masturbating or fornicating is NOT treating your brother how he’d like to be treated.

As has already been pointed out:

Matthew 22:36-38
“36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.”

Sin is opposed to loving God, sin is rejecting God. Sin breaks the greatest commandment, contrary to what you believe. Unfortunately, you and the rest of the society care more about physical pleasures than the spiritual pleasures and the life after this one.

 

[Lynxdk]

Are you insinuating that God’s truth changes with the morals of the times?! That’s absurd.

Um… then how come we can eat shrimp? It used to be one of those “abominations”.

 

[Holly3278]

Um… then how come we can eat shrimp? It used to be one of those “abominations”.

Perhaps this article will help you:

catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0812btb.asp

 

[Mijoy2]

you left out the key piece of information in each scenario, was each individual sincerely sorry and contrite for their sins, and when brought fact to face with God at death for their personal judgement did they choose to spend all eternity with God. You don’t know and I don’t know, and the Church says she does not know, what each of these individuals chose at the moment of death, so neither you nor I nor the Church can say with certainty where any of them ended up

I love this answer and hope this is the truth of what happens at the moment of death.

I also wonder about the being sincerely sorry and contrite for [having sex with a supermodel].

Can one be sincerely sorry and contrite, yet still find the experience pleasurable?

No matter how hard one tries, I don’t think one could force oneself to reflect on the experience with displeasure (although I think one should try to not reflect on the experience). From the worldly perspective I mean. Of course, one could reflect on the experience with sorrow for having offended God.

I wonder why God made this particular temptation nearly insurmountable? Which brings up the question of “full consent”. If one battled hard to fight the temptation and lost the battle, did he consent fully?