sex within marriage

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It doesn’t matter whether JPII still held to those opinions or not. They don’t become authentic papal teaching until he actually as pope shares those opinions. You can look at what he has said in the past to better UNDERSTAND his papal teachings or put then in context, but it’s not having an opinion that makes that opinion authentic or authoritative of the pope; it’s the actual sharing of it as pope that does.
Just 'cause JPII says something doesn’t make it auhtoritative. He’s got to officially declare it as a dogmatic teaching of the faith (Like the Assumption of Mary). While his teachings on Human Sexual Morals are extremely enlighting, their not dogmatic.
 
Just 'cause JPII says something doesn’t make it auhtoritative. He’s got to officially declare it as a dogmatic teaching of the faith (Like the Assumption of Mary). While his teachings on Human Sexual Morals are extremely enlighting, their not dogmatic.
No. Biu they are a clear indication that the opposite teaching (no manual or oral stimulation permitted) is not dogmatic either.

God Bless
 
No. Biu they are a clear indication that the opposite teaching (no manual or oral stimulation permitted) is not dogmatic either.

God Bless
Agreed. Here’s my problem with the whole thing. The Church has given us pretty broad guidelines on the role and purpose of sex within a marriage, why introduce a bunch of rules and restrictions?
 
It doesn’t matter whether JPII still held to those opinions or not. They don’t become authentic papal teaching until he actually as pope shares those opinions. You can look at what he has said in the past to better UNDERSTAND his papal teachings or put then in context, but it’s not having an opinion that makes that opinion authentic or authoritative of the pope; it’s the actual sharing of it as pope that does.
Well the pope is not going to comment on ever particular subject over and over again just becuase he became Pope. But if as Pope, he disagreed with his statement in Love and Responsibility he could have easily changed the wording to reflect that instead of it continuing to be promoted and sold around the world. The thing is that book is still well respected teaching from him and he never recanted what he said. His TOTB is just an extension of his L and R book and no other authoritative source said what was in L and R is wrong.
 
Well the pope is not going to comment on ever particular subject over and over again just becuase he became Pope. But if as Pope, he disagreed with his statement in Love and Responsibility he could have easily changed the wording to reflect that instead of it continuing to be promoted and sold around the world. The thing is that book is still well respected teaching from him and he never recanted what he said. His TOTB is just an extension of his L and R book and no other authoritative source said what was in L and R is wrong.
I’m not saying that when he became pope he suddenly changed his mind or ever changed his mind. I’m saying that’s irrelevant. Unless he actually says it after becoming pope, it’s not authentic papal teaching. It may have weight as the teaching of a theologian, but it does not have weight as the teaching of a pope. There’s no one who says otherwise. you can ask the Apologists forum about this if you are still unsure.
 
Can someone please give me an overview of the “rules” on sex within marriage. I’m in the process of becoming Catholic and while I knew that premarital sex and birth control was wrong- I had no idea there were stipulations on the sex you had with your spouse until I started reading a few of the other threads on here.
Thanks :confused:
“Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West is a great starter book. It’s in a Q&A format and very easy to read and he doesn’t shy away from the difficult questions.

CSJ
 
Can someone please give me an overview of the “rules” on sex within marriage.
There really are no rules with regard to sex within marriage. It must be unitive and genitive. You can do anything you both like as long as it is open to life (i.e. it must finish up with coitus). That is not to say you must stop after coitus. In fact, even after that, you can continue the motion you’ve got the notion.

It may, in fact, be a desirable part of the unitive aspect and giving of ones self when one is considerate of their spouses desires. Marital relations should always be filled with joy; it is one of the most precious gifts to the vocation of marriage.
 
There really are no rules with regard to sex within marriage.
The moral law is universal. It applies to all knowingly chosen acts of all persons at all times in all situations. So the idea that there are no ‘rules’ concerning marital sexual relations is not true.

My above post on page 3 is not opinion.
To reiterate:
  1. The end does not justify the means.
  2. intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention (purpose) or circumstance (or context)
  3. All knowingly chosen acts must be good; actual sin is a knowingly chosen bad act
  4. The moral law applies universally: there are no acts or situations which are exempt from the moral law; nor are there any acts which either need not be moral in and of themselves or which would take their morality from another act
  5. All three fonts of morality must be good for a knowingly chosen act to be good.
It is therefore clear that an act that is classified (properly or improperly) as ‘foreplay’ still must be moral in and of itself.

It is also clear that if an act done by itself is intrinsically evil, nothing can make such an act good, not even combining that act with a good act of natural marital relations.

Concerning the teachings of Pope John Paul II, he taught at length on intrinsic evil in Veritatis Splendor; that teaching is required belief. Nothing can make an intrinsically evil act moral: not purpose or intention, not ‘context’, not circumstances. There is no room for any ‘creativity’ that would claim to make an intrinsically evil act moral.

Nowhere in his theology of the body lectures (which are his own theological ideas, not teachings of the Magisterium) does he permit any intrinsically evil acts to be done by a husband and wife at any time, neither before the marital act (as so-called foreplay) or during or after. Neither do any of his books (also private theology, not teachings of the Magisterium) permit such acts. His writings are being used to promote ideas that he himself never stated (just as Vatican II is often used to promote ideas that the Council never stated).

There are no magisterial documents stating that a husband and wife can perform these kinds of act (those acts which, if done by themselves, everyone admits they are intrinsically evil and always immoral) within marriage or in the ‘context’ of natural marital relations. Neither is there any magisterial document saying that all acts are moral between a husband and wife as long as there is an accompanying act of natural marital relations. However, the Magisterium has clearly taught that nothing whatsoever can justify an act that is intrinsically evil.

As for Christopher West, most of his teaching is sound. He only mentions very briefly, in a few places, the incorrect claim that intrinsically evil acts (such as masturbation) are moral when done in the ‘context’ of natural marital relations. Since the Magisterium clearly teaches that masturbation is intrinsically evil and always immoral, we should ignore West when he claims that the same act is moral when performed by a husband on his wife after natural marital relations.

Do not be led astray in this grave matter. Marital relations is a part of the Sacrament of holy Matrimony. And you know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. So do you really think that a husband and wife can do anything whatsoever to one another’s bodies as long as an act of natural marital relations also occurs? Do you think that Jesus and Mary, who are each perfect in virginity and chastity, would permit such acts, acts which everyone condemns when the same acts are done by themselves? May God forbid that any devout married couple would behave in such a manner.
 
Ignatius;4476690:
There really are no rules with regard to sex within marriage. It must be unitive and genitive. You can do anything you both like as long as it is open to life (i.e. it must finish up with coitus). That is not to say you must stop after coitus.
The moral law is universal. It applies to all knowingly chosen acts of all persons at all times in all situations. So the idea that there are no ‘rules’ concerning marital sexual relations is not true.

My above post on page 3 is not opinion.
To reiterate:
  1. The end does not justify the means.
  2. intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention (purpose) or circumstance (or context)
  3. All knowingly chosen acts must be good; actual sin is a knowingly chosen bad act
  4. The moral law applies universally: there are no acts or situations which are exempt from the moral law; nor are there any acts which either need not be moral in and of themselves or which would take their morality from another act
  5. All three fonts of morality must be good for a knowingly chosen act to be good.
It is therefore clear that an act that is classified (properly or improperly) as ‘foreplay’ still must be moral in and of itself.

It is also clear that if an act done by itself is intrinsically evil, nothing can make such an act good, not even combining that act with a good act of natural marital relations.

Concerning the teachings of Pope John Paul II, he taught at length on intrinsic evil in Veritatis Splendor; that teaching is required belief. Nothing can make an intrinsically evil act moral: not purpose or intention, not ‘context’, not circumstances. There is no room for any ‘creativity’ that would claim to make an intrinsically evil act moral.

Nowhere in his theology of the body lectures (which are his own theological ideas, not teachings of the Magisterium) does he permit any intrinsically evil acts to be done by a husband and wife at any time, neither before the marital act (as so-called foreplay) or during or after. Neither do any of his books (also private theology, not teachings of the Magisterium) permit such acts. His writings are being used to promote ideas that he himself never stated (just as Vatican II is often used to promote ideas that the Council never stated).

There are no magisterial documents stating that a husband and wife can perform these kinds of act (those acts which, if done by themselves, everyone admits they are intrinsically evil and always immoral) within marriage or in the ‘context’ of natural marital relations. Neither is there any magisterial document saying that all acts are moral between a husband and wife as long as there is an accompanying act of natural marital relations. However, the Magisterium has clearly taught that nothing whatsoever can justify an act that is intrinsically evil.
.
??? I’m not understanding where you are coming from. You’ll need to enumerate what the intrinsic evils in sexuality between a husban and wife are.

I may be mistaken, but I think the OP was asking what the rules are for activities of a sexual nature between a husband and wife. I don’t think she was contemplating of any evil activity. Again, as long as it is genitive and unitive, sexuality withing marriage is a gift from God.

Yours in Christ.
 
??? I’m not understanding where you are coming from. You’ll need to enumerate what the intrinsic evils in sexuality between a husban and wife are.

I may be mistaken, but I think the OP was asking what the rules are for activities of a sexual nature between a husband and wife. I don’t think she was contemplating of any evil activity. Again, as long as it is genitive and unitive, sexuality withing marriage is a gift from God.

Yours in Christ.
Mr. Conte has beliefs (not taught by the Church) that any genital stimulation as foreplay or afterplay is intrinsically evil.

He mistakenly believes that since oral sex and masturbation are intrinsically evil (they are b/c they are not procreative) that oral and manual stimulation are intrinsically evil. This is a common misconception because, in the old days when sex was not openly discussed, the Church did not generall distinguish between mere stimulation and completed acts.

This is NOT the teaching of the Catholic Church, witness moral theology texts with the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat (including JP II’ s own works) that teach that manual and oral stimulation are licit, even to climax (for the woman).

God Bless & Happy Thanksgiving!
 
My above post on page 3 is not opinion.
To reiterate:
  1. The end does not justify the means.
  2. intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention (purpose) or circumstance (or context)
  3. All knowingly chosen acts must be good; actual sin is a knowingly chosen bad act
  4. The moral law applies universally: there are no acts or situations which are exempt from the moral law; nor are there any acts which either need not be moral in and of themselves or which would take their morality from another act
  5. All three fonts of morality must be good for a knowingly chosen act to be good.
It is therefore clear that an act that is classified (properly or improperly) as ‘foreplay’ still must be moral in and of itself.

It is also clear that if an act done by itself is intrinsically evil,
nothing can make such an act good, not even combining that act with a good act of natural marital relations.

.
What I do not understand from the posters who hold these views such as Ron Conte here, is how they draw the conclusion that the acts we are discussing (we all know what they are so I will not repeat them) are evil.

I fail to see what is “evil” about these acts in the confines of a loving marriage. I can , to some degree, understand how we are not to profane the “marital embrace” by degrading it to a level of recreation only, which is what we do when we contracept but to almost state that we cannot enjoy it seems unnatural. (I know this is not the point of the poster but for many, especially women, this is essentially the end product of posing the restrictions of intercourse only).

Where is the line drawn and what support scriptural or tradition, can you refer to?

With all due respect it almost seems impossible. If one cannot utilize any means to get prepared for the marital embrace, one cannot perform the marital embrace. Especially unfortunatley, if one is unhealthy or aging. This, to me, sounds unatural.

I’d pose hypothetically to the poster:

Can one look at the other?
Can one smell the other?
Can one touch the other? If so where?
Can one kiss the other? If so where?

See where I am going? Who defines what is moral and what is not? It needs to be definitively clarified or (and I prefer) left to the loving married couple.

Hope this was clear and non-offensive.
 
Go on the Notra Dame Seminary Web page. Click on the Martial act page and it is all explained there. This all by the priests from there.

Antrim
 
What I do not understand from the posters who hold these views such as Ron Conte here, is how they draw the conclusion that the acts we are discussing (we all know what they are so I will not repeat them) are evil.

I fail to see what is “evil” about these acts in the confines of a loving marriage. I can , to some degree, understand how we are not to profane the “marital embrace” by degrading it to a level of recreation only, which is what we do when we contracept but to almost state that we cannot enjoy it seems unnatural. (I know this is not the point of the poster but for many, especially women, this is essentially the end product of posing the restrictions of intercourse only).

Where is the line drawn and what support scriptural or tradition, can you refer to?

With all due respect it almost seems impossible. If one cannot utilize any means to get prepared for the marital embrace, one cannot perform the marital embrace. Especially unfortunatley, if one is unhealthy or aging. This, to me, sounds unatural.

I’d pose hypothetically to the poster:

Can one look at the other?
Can one smell the other?
Can one touch the other? If so where?
Can one kiss the other? If so where?

See where I am going? Who defines what is moral and what is not? It needs to be definitively clarified or (and I prefer) left to the loving married couple.

Hope this was clear and non-offensive.
It appears that Theology of the Body is at odds with some prior teaching on the subject. I find TOB is completely consistant within itself. I suspect that the limitations placed on the act by prior scholars were there to “prevent the near occaision of sin” as it is called. Teachings here are either in transition, or, as some put it, provided to us by the “anti-popes.” (In other words, the 5 years that JP II spent telling us about this was misguided) Since I can not subscribe to the latter, I subscribe to the former. Sex was made by God to be enjoyable simultaneously by the couple. Loving consideration to this fact should be included in the action of the spouses.
 
The moral law is universal. It applies to all knowingly chosen acts of all persons at all times in all situations. So the idea that there are no ‘rules’ concerning marital sexual relations is not true.

My above post on page 3 is not opinion.
To reiterate:
  1. The end does not justify the means.
  2. intrinsically evil acts are always immoral, regardless of intention (purpose) or circumstance (or context)
  3. All knowingly chosen acts must be good; actual sin is a knowingly chosen bad act
  4. The moral law applies universally: there are no acts or situations which are exempt from the moral law; nor are there any acts which either need not be moral in and of themselves or which would take their morality from another act
  5. All three fonts of morality must be good for a knowingly chosen act to be good.
It is therefore clear that an act that is classified (properly or improperly) as ‘foreplay’ still must be moral in and of itself.

It is also clear that if an act done by itself is intrinsically evil, nothing can make such an act good, not even combining that act with a good act of natural marital relations.

Concerning the teachings of Pope John Paul II, he taught at length on intrinsic evil in Veritatis Splendor; that teaching is required belief. Nothing can make an intrinsically evil act moral: not purpose or intention, not ‘context’, not circumstances. There is no room for any ‘creativity’ that would claim to make an intrinsically evil act moral.

Nowhere in his theology of the body lectures (which are his own theological ideas, not teachings of the Magisterium) does he permit any intrinsically evil acts to be done by a husband and wife at any time, neither before the marital act (as so-called foreplay) or during or after. Neither do any of his books (also private theology, not teachings of the Magisterium) permit such acts. His writings are being used to promote ideas that he himself never stated (just as Vatican II is often used to promote ideas that the Council never stated).

There are no magisterial documents stating that a husband and wife can perform these kinds of act (those acts which, if done by themselves, everyone admits they are intrinsically evil and always immoral) within marriage or in the ‘context’ of natural marital relations. Neither is there any magisterial document saying that all acts are moral between a husband and wife as long as there is an accompanying act of natural marital relations. However, the Magisterium has clearly taught that nothing whatsoever can justify an act that is intrinsically evil.

As for Christopher West, most of his teaching is sound. He only mentions very briefly, in a few places, the incorrect claim that intrinsically evil acts (such as masturbation) are moral when done in the ‘context’ of natural marital relations. Since the Magisterium clearly teaches that masturbation is intrinsically evil and always immoral, we should ignore West when he claims that the same act is moral when performed by a husband on his wife after natural marital relations.

Do not be led astray in this grave matter. Marital relations is a part of the Sacrament of holy Matrimony. And you know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. So do you really think that a husband and wife can do anything whatsoever to one another’s bodies as long as an act of natural marital relations also occurs? Do you think that Jesus and Mary, who are each perfect in virginity and chastity, would permit such acts, acts which everyone condemns when the same acts are done by themselves? May God forbid that any devout married couple would behave in such a manner.
Your opinion is just that. It is not Church teaching. There are no Church documents that forbid particular acts of foreplay between husband and wife prior to the completion of the marital act inside the wife. It is up to the couple to decide what acts of foreplay they both consent to.
Again, vague generalisations and allusions to natural and unnatural and opinions of disgust about certain acts are not Church teaching.
I have asked you in other threads to produce Church documents which forbid particular acts of foreplay between husband and wife and you have failed to do so. Why? Because they do not exist.
 
I would point this out, from a historical perspective.

Because of men distorting the simple fact that marital relations must be procreative, and the actions desirable to both spouses–these being the only real rules–the business of courtesans in the Renaissance age flourished. Men whose devout wives were told that they must engage in only direct intercourse, only in the missionary position, and only when ready to beget a child, denied their husband other pleasures, and so the men went to courtesans who were willing to satisfy their other needs.

Wouldn’t it have been so much better for the married couples to together decide what they were comfortable with, and then engage in it together, with the procreative aspect included, rather than another sin heaped on the husband’s head by his going to a prostitute?
 
good point. However the husbands were never justified in their actions. I do belive many are misled as to what is good and what is evil. It comes down to verbage sometimes. When is “stimulus” masterbation or when is sex “relief or entertainment” more than it is love. These are key concepts that must be understood by the couple. Some men don’t need manual stimulation, some women do. We’re all unique and if a couple is inspired to love each other the way it needs to be, so be it. I’ll let God judge them accordingly.
 
What I do not understand from the posters who hold these views such as Ron Conte here, is how they draw the conclusion that the acts we are discussing (we all know what they are so I will not repeat them) are evil.

I fail to see what is “evil” about these acts in the confines of a loving marriage. I can , to some degree, understand how we are not to profane the “marital embrace” by degrading it to a level of recreation only, which is what we do when we contracept but to almost state that we cannot enjoy it seems unnatural. (I know this is not the point of the poster but for many, especially women, this is essentially the end product of posing the restrictions of intercourse only).

Where is the line drawn and what support scriptural or tradition, can you refer to?

With all due respect it almost seems impossible. If one cannot utilize any means to get prepared for the marital embrace, one cannot perform the marital embrace. Especially unfortunatley, if one is unhealthy or aging. This, to me, sounds unatural.

I’d pose hypothetically to the poster:

Can one look at the other?
Can one smell the other?
Can one touch the other? If so where?
Can one kiss the other? If so where?

See where I am going? Who defines what is moral and what is not? It needs to be definitively clarified or (and I prefer) left to the loving married couple.

Hope this was clear and non-offensive.
Hence my post of Oct 21 (way at the beginning of this thread). Better to go and research the answer on your own than rely on this forum for the answer. Too many opinions, it’s not a cut and dry issue.
 
This guy (who seems fairly knowledgeable on moral theology from his other articles) says only genital-genital intercourse is allowed, any other stimulation prohibited (even if there still is completion of natural intercourse before/after those acts).
catholicplanet.com/CCSE/marriage-sins.htm
That same guy claims as follows:
The Future in one paragraph
The first part of the tribulation, from 2009/2010 to 2039/2040, includes world war 3, civil disorder, famine, many deaths, a great massacre of Christians, word war 4, and the afflictions of the first six trumpets from the Book of Revelation (the last trumpet being the three days of darkness). Next the great monarch and the angelic shepherd reign peacefully. Afterwards the world gradually slips into ever greater sinfulness, over the next few centuries, until the reign of the ten kings dominates the 24th century. The Antichrist rises to power in the early 25th century, wins a war in 2430, and becomes ruler of nearly the whole world from 2431 to 2437. Then Christ returns in 2437 and establishes his kingdom on earth. Christ returns to Heaven, but he continues to reign on earth through the Sacraments and the Church, for well over a thousand years, in peace and holiness. After that there is a brief time of trouble, followed by the general resurrection, and a new heaven and a new earth.
by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
last updated December 28, 2005
catholicplanet.com/future/future1.htm

In short, don’t take his writings for granted. He says he has “a lowly bachelor’s degree in philsophy/theology [sic] from Boston College” – but somehow didn’t even learn how to spell “philosophy” while doing it.
 
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