Sexism and Female Ordination

[francesco920]

He did specifically include women in his inner circle. What is not clear is how the church justifies prohibiting the participation of women in its “inner circle”, the magesterium.

He never gave them the Apostolic authority of “binding and loosing.” He never gave them Holy Orders. Of course he included them in His inner circle. Nobody was closer to Him than His Mother. One does not have to have Holy Orders to be “in His inner circle.”

The Church does not prohibit women; She simply doesn’t have the authority to ordain them. No bishop, including the Pope, has the authority to ordain women, even if they wanted to.

Another problem is that you ignore that it has been this way since Apostolic times. The Apostles NEVER ordained women, nor did any of their successors! If the Lord wanted them to ordain women, they would have. They went to their deaths proclaiming the Gospel after all, so obviously they weren’t afraid of going against the culture.

And, as I have said and others as well, *nobody has the right to be ordained. *NOBODY! That the Lord has granted Holy Orders to men is a gift not only to them but to the whole Church, because He works through them to bring us the sacraments. It is also true that the Lord has granted women gifts that men do not have, not only for the benefit of women but for His whole people. The gift of being the Mother of God he gave to Mary, a woman, for example.

One last thing: there is a teaching in the Bible about those who complain that God is more generous with others than with them. Especially important is Matthew 20:15.
Mathew 20:1-15:

1 The kingdom of heaven is like to an householder, who went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And having agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And going about the third hour, he saw others standing in the market place idle. 4 And he said to them: Go you also into my vineyard, and I will give you what shall be just. 5 And they went their way. And again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did in like manner.
6 But about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing, and he saith to them: Why stand you here all the day idle? 7 They say to him: Because no man hath hired us. He saith to them: Go you also into my vineyard. 8 And when evening was come, the lord of the vineyard saith to his steward: Call the labourers and pay them their hire, beginning from the last even to the first. 9 When therefore they were come, that came about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first also came, they thought that they should receive more: and they also received every man a penny.
11 And receiving it they murmured against the master of the house, 12 Saying: These last have worked but one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, that have borne the burden of the day and the heats. 13 But he answering said to one of them: Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst thou not agree with me for a penny? 14 Take what is thine, and go thy way: I will also give to this last even as to thee. 15 Or, is it not lawful for me to do what I will? is thy eye evil, because I am good?

Source: drbo.org/chapter/47020.htm

God has the right to be generous at His pleasure. None of us deserve a single gift of His. If He decides to give a gift to some and not to others, nobody has the right to complain. If He decides to give more to some than to others, again nobody has the right to complain. Instead of whining about not having a certain gift (which we have absolutely no right to anyway) or not having as much of a gift as the next guy, we ought to rejoice at the gifts we have been given, and remember that the greatest gift, Heaven, is offered to all of us.

 

[richwmiller]

St. Paul argued that women should sit in church and be quiet. So the Tradition and Scripture about not ordaining women goes way back to Apostolic times.

As much as I am opposed to women’s ordination that passage is misused.

 

[mgrfin]

He also did not choose any gentiles as apostles either but that doesn’t seem to bother anyone…

He did specifically include women in his inner circle. What is not clear is how the church justifies prohibiting the participation of women in its “inner circle”, the magesterium.

Women in the Church are part of the living Magisterium.

peace

 

[richwmiller]

Women in the Church are part of the living Magisterium.

Source for that!
Perhaps a section in the CCC!
and is there a corresponding dead magisterium?

 

[mgrfin]

Source for that!
Perhaps a section in the CCC!
and is there a corresponding dead magisterium?

No, the Magisterium is alive.
What the universal Church believes about a particular doctrine is the living Magisterium of the Church.

BTW, there are three women who hold the title of “Doctor of the Church”:
Theresa of Avila
Catherine of Siena
Therese of Lisieux

O Holy Doctors, pray for us

 

[richwmiller]

No, the Magisterium is alive.
What the universal Church believes about a particular doctrine is the living Magisterium of the Church.

No the living magisterium is the pope and the bishops in union with him. magisterium is the teaching authority of the church. What religion are you starting now?

BTW, there are three women who hold the title of “Doctor of the Church”:
Theresa of Avila
Catherine of Siena
Therese of Lisieux

Yes there are female doctors of the catholic church. What is the point? There are thousands of nuns too.

They are not the magisterium, dead or alive.
Never have been! Never will be!.
The fathers and the doctors of the church are sources of sacred tradition. The magisterium still needs to teach using the information found in the deposit of faith and sacred tradition.

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]
My my, how full of ourselves we are!
Of course I am not starting a new religion. And, of course the Doctors of the Church are the foundation and source of the teaching of the Church.
The point about females is that someone excluded women from the teaching foundation of the Church. WRONG.

Let me show you how the faithful and a fortiori, doctors of the Church add to the infallibility of the Church. Take the encyclical letter of Pius XII (just as an example) regarding the Assumption (and Immaculate Conception by reference).
Quote:
6. Thus, when it was solemnly proclaimed that Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was from the very beginning free from the taint of original sin, the minds of the faithful were filled with a stronger hope that the day might soon come when the dogma of the Virgin Mary’s bodily Assumption into heaven would also be defined by the Church’s supreme teaching authority.

1. During the course of time such postulations and petitions did not decrease but rather grew continually in number and in urgency. In this cause there were pious crusades of prayer
   These studies and investigations have brought out into even clearer light the fact that the dogma of the Virgin Mary’s Assumption into heaven is contained in the deposit of Christian faith entrusted to the Church. They have resulted in many more petitions, begging and urging the Apostolic See that this truth be solemnly defined
2. In this pious striving, the faithful have been associated in a wonderful way with their own holy bishops, who have sent petitions of this kind, truly remarkable in number, to this See of the Blessed Peter.
3. Various testimonies, indications and signs of this common belief of the Church are evident from remote times down through the course of the centuries; and this same belief becomes more clearly manifest from day to day
4. However, since the liturgy of the Church does not engender the Catholic faith, but rather springs from it, in such a way that the practices of the sacred worship proceed from the faith as the fruit comes from the tree, it follows that the holy Fathers and the great Doctors, in the homilies and sermons they gave the people on this feast day, did not draw their teaching from the feast itself as from a primary source, but rather they spoke of this doctrine as something already known and accepted by Christ’s faithful. Unquote.
   You get the point. It was the belief of the faithful that urged on the Definition as a natural consequence. The faithful are part of this Magisterium.
   peace (Sept. 8 is the Nativity of Mary)
   O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us.

 

[richwmiller]

Of course I am not starting a new religion.

It wasn’t so obvious as you think.
I couldn’t tell because what you propose is not Catholicism.
The magisterium is the bishops in union with the pope. period no one else period!!!
Look it up. It is as plain as day.

You get the point. It was the belief of the faithful that urged on the Definition as a natural consequence.

I knew all that. That has nothing to do with teaching authority. As a matter of fact, I just got through explaining that on two threads !!
The sense of the faithful is consulted! Theologians are consulted.
The bishops make the decisions. The magisterium makes decisions.
In the US, the theologians think they are part of the magisterium . They are for consultation only!

The faithful are part of this Magisterium.

No. They aren’t.
The Eastern Orthodox think so. So maybe you are really Eastern Orthodox.
You show me one citation form the CCC that even remotely hints that the magisterium is anything but the bishops in union with the pope

O Mary, Mother of God, pray for us.

 

[mgrfin]

richwmiller:
I don’t have any definition from the CCC on Magisterium

Quote me your definition, please.

If you read Pius XII on definition of the Assumption, you quickly get the idea that the faithful already believed in this doctrine, before Pius XII defined. The doctrine sprung from the faithful - their belief and their liturgical practice.

Is this what Magisterium is all about. Jesus spoke to the multitudes, and left the doctrine with them. So did the Apostles - they spoke to the faithful.

When you read an encyclical letter on a definition. You see it all coming together. The teaching of the early church; the teaching from scripture; the belief of the faithful; the testimony of the church fathers and doctors of the church.

You seem to say that the Pope and the bishops operate in a vacuum. No! The deposit of faith was made to the faithful in the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

It is up to the Pope and Bishops to pull a teaching from them in their liturgy, in their testimony, in their practices, in their beliefs, in their spirit, the ‘common’ teaching and belief of the faithful, where the faith was deposited. Not from the mind of the Pope, or the bishops. Else they could define a new belief tomorrow, which you could not prove from the lineage of belief of the faithful.

Without this stream, the pope could act ‘out of the blue’. He needs to define what was taught to the faithful, and the faithful must give back to him from this deposit of faith.

Pio Nono said in His encyclical on the Immaculate Conception:
this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine.

It was the common belief of the Mystical Body of Christ.

peace

 

[richwmiller]

I don’t have any definition from the CCC on Magisterium

Do you know what magisterium means? It comes from the word for teacher. It is the authority to teach! Only the bishops have it. Yes there are Sunday school teachers. But the real authority to teach is for and by the bishops. That is part of their job description. Go and teach all nations.

Why am I not surprised that you don’t have access to a copy of the CCC?
Apparently you invent doctrine as you go along.

Here is the searchable CCC.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

That is section 100 not page 100

100 The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted **solely **to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.

You seem to say that the Pope and the bishops operate in a vacuum.

That’s my line. I say that at least three times a day.
That is section 95 not page 95

95 “It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”

The deposit of faith was made to the faithful in the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles.

You almost have it right. Leave out the faithful. The magisterium is the guardian of the deposit of faith.

It was the common belief of the Mystical Body of Christ.

Ok.
People of God is the mystical body of Christ which is the church.
Each part of the body has it jobs. Some are to teach-that falls to the bishops.

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

Richmiller:

I didn’t say I didn’t have a copy of the CCC. In fact, I do. But the index under ‘magisterium’ refers me to “The Church” which is four index pages.

I asked you, “Quote me your definition, please.” I was very courteous. I did not display the lack of charity you did. Even when I ask you nicely for a definition you sent me to the catechism without a definition.

I don’t invent “Catholic” doctrine as I go. There is not one iota of falsehood in my post.

I said that the doctrine of the Assumption, according to Pope Pius XII, “sprung from the faithful”, their belief and their liturgical practice. Totally inoffensive, except to you.

“When you read an encyclical letter on a definition, you see it all coming together”, I said. “The teaching of the early church, the teaching from scripture, the belief of the faithful, the testimony of the church fathers’. This is totally true, and no error.

**I clearly said that it is up to the Pope and the Bishops to pull a teaching from them **(the faithful) in their liturgy, in their testimony, in their practices, in their beliefs, in their spirit, the ‘common teaching and belief of the faithful.

I said it was up to the Pope and the Bishops. I didn’t say that the faithful defined the doctrine. A good encyclical letter on a doctrine quotes all of the sources throughout the history of the church to show that this was the Church’s constant teaching and belief.

Where is my error? My error was to believe that you could read, and would not feel threatened by the post. I can assure you I know what I am talking about. I always repeat catholic and orthodox teaching.

PS My quotes from the encyclical have the paragraph reference numbers right out of the encyclical. It should be obvious these were not page numbers.

peace

 

[richwmiller]

I didn’t say I didn’t have a copy of the CCC. In fact, I do.

You obviously didn’t read you post.

I don’t have any definition from the CCC on Magisterium

That can mean only three things.
1-You don’t have one!
2-You can’t find the listing ie you don’t know how to use it.
3-You didn’t look.
Charitably, I had to assume that
1-you didn’t --I would have to attribute laziness to you.
2-you tried and couldn’t find it. I would have to attribute ignorance to accept that one-
3-you don’t have one- only option left I took it!
You fooled me. You don’t know how to use it. I only have a paper copy and found it within a minute.
So I posted the link to the very easy to use searchable CCC
**You are welcome. **So much for your courtesy.

But the index under ‘magisterium’ refers me to “The Church” which is four index pages.

Actually “Church” is on six pages.

I can assure you I know what I am talking about.

I feel better now with your approval of yourself…

PS My quotes from the encyclical have the paragraph reference numbers right out of the encyclical. It should be obvious these were not page numbers.

It is the major error in looking up citations from the CCC.
I was helping you maneuver the CCC so I pointed out that the numbers were section numbers not page numbers.
You are welcome

 

[BlueKnight]

Something new? Alright. This might sound irreverent. What about hermaphridites?

Its always interesting to talk about the exception but it has very little real world value.

Blue Knight

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your quest for the truth.

peace