Sexless Marriage?

[jmjZelie]

With regard to the points made in this thread about engaging in marital relations even when you don’t feel like it…

I think there is a difference between (1) recognizing that you do not currently feel attracted to your spouse, acknowledging that feelings cannot always be trusted, and choosing to love your spouse in the way that they need at the moment, and hopefully finding that your heart is changed and that relations become enjoyable again and that attraction is rekindled (that can take time sometimes); and (2) forcing yourself to endure relations that are painful or repugnant because your spouse is using you and doesn’t care about your experience or your person and insists upon his/her own way.

The first is a loving thing to do and God can heal marriages with that kind of sacrificial attitude. The second is abusive. If there is ANY history of sexual abuse in the marriage, or if sexual abuse has ever happened to either spouse outside of the marriage, the manner of approaching each other for marital relations does indeed need to be more circumspect and gentle and cautious. The sacrificial attitude likely needs to come from the spouse who was not abused, rather than from the person who was abused, at least for as long as it takes for the person to be healed from their psychological and spiritual wounds. Another important thing to note is that patient and loving relations can actually help a spouse to heal.

I think both Xantippe, and Monicad and BlueEyedLady are right, because each of their points starts from a different basis. Xantippe starts from a frame of reference of some sort of prior abuse. The other ladies start from a place of respect and fulfilling vows.

 

[pensmama87]

With regard to the points made in this thread about engaging in marital relations even when you don’t feel like it…

I think there is a difference between (1) recognizing that you do not currently feel attracted to your spouse, acknowledging that feelings cannot always be trusted, and choosing to love your spouse in the way that they need at the moment, and hopefully finding that your heart is changed and that relations become enjoyable again and that attraction is rekindled (that can take time sometimes); and (2) forcing yourself to endure relations that are painful or repugnant because your spouse is using you and doesn’t care about your experience or your person and insists upon his/her own way.

The first is a loving thing to do and God can heal marriages with that kind of sacrificial attitude. The second is abusive. If there is ANY history of sexual abuse in the marriage, or if sexual abuse has ever happened to either spouse outside of the marriage, the manner of approaching each other for marital relations does indeed need to be more circumspect and gentle and cautious. The sacrificial attitude likely needs to come from the spouse who was not abused, rather than from the person who was abused, at least for as long as it takes for the person to be healed from their psychological and spiritual wounds. Another important thing to note is that patient and loving relations can actually help a spouse to heal.

I think both Xantippe, and Monicad and BlueEyedLady are right, because each of their points starts from a different basis. Xantippe starts from a frame of reference of some sort of prior abuse. The other ladies start from a place of respect and fulfilling vows.

Beautifully said.

 

[Xantippe]

With regard to the points made in this thread about engaging in marital relations even when you don’t feel like it…

I think there is a difference between (1) recognizing that you do not currently feel attracted to your spouse, acknowledging that feelings cannot always be trusted, and choosing to love your spouse in the way that they need at the moment, and hopefully finding that your heart is changed and that relations become enjoyable again and that attraction is rekindled (that can take time sometimes); and (2) forcing yourself to endure relations that are painful or repugnant because your spouse is using you and doesn’t care about your experience or your person and insists upon his/her own way.

The first is a loving thing to do and God can heal marriages with that kind of sacrificial attitude. The second is abusive. If there is ANY history of sexual abuse in the marriage, or if sexual abuse has ever happened to either spouse outside of the marriage, the manner of approaching each other for marital relations does indeed need to be more circumspect and gentle and cautious. The sacrificial attitude likely needs to come from the spouse who was not abused, rather than from the person who was abused, at least for as long as it takes for the person to be healed from their psychological and spiritual wounds. Another important thing to note is that patient and loving relations can actually help a spouse to heal.

I think both Xantippe, and Monicad and BlueEyedLady are right, because each of their points starts from a different basis. Xantippe starts from a frame of reference of some sort of prior abuse. The other ladies start from a place of respect and fulfilling vows.

Thank you!

I think I’d add to #2 that the other spouse doesn’t necessarily even know that there’s something bad going on–so they aren’t necessarily being abusive, just obtuse.

For instance, it would be possible to be making the effort, silently dealing with disgust and pain, but then be unable to go on with it indefinitely. It’s not long-term sustainable, if marital relations gives one spouse nothing but disgust and/or pain–as I was describing previously, the suffering spouse is undergoing a sort of Pavlovian training that makes them detest marital relations. Hence “lie back and think of England” can be very bad advice for some individuals–the ideal is to actually ENJOY marital relations, not just suffer through them.

I would compare it to the following two different situations:

1. There’s an unfamiliar dish at a potluck, I take a small sample, and discover that it’s delicious and a much-anticipated treat.
2. I’m feeling ill and the unfamiliar dish smells bad to me, but my hosts bully me into trying it, I have some, throw up, and never want to touch it again.

One has to deal very carefully with aversions to avoid creating a permanent distaste for the thing, whatever it is.

 

[hiramross]

Thanks for all of your responses. I was going to respond to each one, but honestly, I’m just too tired. I’ve been working all day.

I see some of you know my history here. It’s not a very happy history. Someone pointed out my job situation and my “mental health.”

As for my job situation, I have been working. And when I got a new job it made no difference whatsoever in my romantic relationship with my W. Not a thing. I have a new job and still no difference. In fact, we have not been together once this year. As for last year? Well, does 2 times count? Tragic I know.

As for my mental health I am fine. Yes, depression has always been an issue with me. Since I have been working I am doing much better. I still have my battles like everyone does. My last job did not last too long. But I got a new job and I am happy. However, I am getting way underpaid. But last least I have a job.

I find it ironic that the only thing I feel I really “need” is the sex. Now I know I don’t “need” that. But it’s so important. I don’t do anything else really. I have not issues with substance abuse of any kind. Sometimes I really wonder if this is a test for me. Given that it’s the one thing that is really important to me, it’s the one thing I don’t get. Perhaps it’s a test? Perhaps it’s a test to see if I am going to suffer through it as a penance for my years the sexual sins committed by me in the past? I can’t believe I am writing this.

But how long can a person go on like this realistically speaking?

I’m going over the responses! I really agree with some of them. There is a Sacramental agreement in a marriage and my wife does not acknowledge that. I read her 1 Cor 7. She did not know it existed. It made no difference to her. She just felt pressured.

Hi!

Sex is good for marriage yes, BUT if your wife was tragically hurt and no longer able to physically have sex then would you leave her?

You:
If you were tragically hurt and could no longer have physical sex with your wife; would she leave you?

Sex is a part of marriage yes but there are many other aspects to it as well. Bear your cross and make your sacrifice to God.

I myself could understand the feeling that “you should have it” or “I need it” but both of those are of “I”. You are now married and it is WE even without the sexual act.

1 CORINTHIANS 7:14-16
For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through her husband. Otherwise, your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so; in such a case the brother or sister is not bound. It is to peace that God has called you.[a] 16 Wife, for all you know, you might save your husband. Husband, for all you know, you might save your wife.

 

[jmjZelie]

Thank you!

I think I’d add to #2 that the other spouse doesn’t necessarily even know that there’s something bad going on–so they aren’t necessarily being abusive, just obtuse.

For instance, it would be possible to be making the effort, silently dealing with disgust and pain, but then be unable to go on with it indefinitely. It’s not long-term sustainable, if marital relations gives one spouse nothing but disgust and/or pain–as I was describing previously, the suffering spouse is undergoing a sort of Pavlovian training that makes them detest marital relations. Hence “lie back and think of England” can be very bad advice for some individuals–the ideal is to actually ENJOY marital relations, not just suffer through them.

One has to deal very carefully with aversions to avoid creating a permanent distaste for the thing, whatever it is.

Yes that is a good point. In the case of an obtuse spouse, rather than an abusive one, I think a good way to deal with that problem is to get some counseling, or to read about sexual differences between men and women and apply what is learned, and/or to do lots of talking and “re-wooing” of each other. That can help reset the dynamic fairly quickly, since there is not the added factor of sexual abuse, which can really throw a wrench into happy conjugal life. In fact, that same advice would be applicable for a marriage where spousal abuse had occurred but the spouse is repentant.
I know that the OPs situation is one where the marriage is not valid, so MainBrain is going to have to find a way to have his marriage validated or to live chastely, without becoming overwhelmed by bitterness and resentment. I will keep him in my prayers.
But if they should be able to overcome any impediments and have their marriage validated, I think that much of the advice in this thread about how to understand married relations and how to approach healing that aspect of their marriage is quite good.

 

[Xantippe]

That is beautifully said. If one spouse is feeling drawn to withdraw sexually because of past abuse, clearly counseling should be considered and compassion is necessary. I was only speaking about the common thought these days that if you don’t feel like it you don’t have to do, well, anything really and that’s not Catholic church teaching.

Weeeell, I feel like there can be a lot of things behind “don’t feel like it.”

For instance, I’m lately noticing that there are a lot of magazine ads talking about medications for older women experiencing painful intercourse. There must be a LOT of women with that problem if it’s worth taking out expensive ads in national media.

I’ve also lately been hearing a lot about vaginismus (Sheila Wray Gregoire has written a lot on it). And then there are childbirth injuries…There are pretty much endless options for why intercourse might be unappealing.

 

[Marie5890]

(Im guessing the OP just needed to vent the other evening at this point.)

 

[mommy_k]

Yes, I agree with the posters that state perhaps it is a physical reason, a hormonal one or something else… OP, if your spouse is normal in every other regard towards you, perhaps she needs to see if there is a physical reason for having a low or non exisitant libido.

If she sees how this effects you, she will go to the doctor for a physical. Right now she may see nothing is wrong, as she does not have these needs, but start with thiis path.

If the physical comes back normal, then proceed with getting her help with counseling. To do counseling first will not help if it is physical.

If she refuses to go to the doctor-well-thats a mess that needs to be addressed with perhaps seperation until she partners with you for her healing.

 

[MainBrain]

(Im guessing the OP just needed to vent the other evening at this point.)

I’ll respond. I’ve been very busy at my new job, as well as very sexually frustrated. It’s not fair.

 

[Marie5890]

I’ll respond. I’ve been very busy at my new job, as well as very sexually frustrated. It’s not fair.

There are so many things in life that are not fair.

I’ve been paralyzed for over 40 years, and because of that, denied the opportunity to even date, never mind get married.

Yes, it’s not fair.
Crosses rarely are.

 

[GomezU]

Sorry, Pal. You’re SOL. I’ve been in a sexless marriage going on 4 years since my wife’s hysterectomy. She refuses to try and do anything about it. Mainly just refuses. But, I love her. I love her. She loves me, but not like that. Oh how I miss those goo-goo eyes, but no more. Be chaste and don’t separate. Take up your cross, deny yourself. You’ll be tempted, you’ll be bitter occasionally. I, like you never thought a situation like this would happen, but it has.

 

[GM_2013]

From a point of view of someone who works with Canon Law and annulments, constantly denying sex to a husband or wife is a grave sin (provided, of course, there are no grave psychological issues involved) that not only forbids someone to receive Communion, but also gives the spouse who is forced into abstinence a just cause for separation.

My old books of Moral Theology and Canon Law (19th century, first half of the 20th century, some of them written in Latin) all say this. You cannot impose abstinence on the other spouse without a grave just cause (of course, if you were abused or have psychological problems, it is a whole different matter - “ad impossibilia nemo tenetur” - no one is obliged to do the impossible).

Denying the other spouse sex may expose the spouse to danger of falling gravely in other kinds of sexual sins - adultery, porn, masturbation etc. It is more common than you think, and we see this happen a lot in annulment process (specially with men).

Although denying sex on a constant basis is not a cause for annulment “per se” (it could be if it is linked with some psychological impairment prior to marriage), it sure is a cause for separation.

But remember: separation in these cases is a faculty granted to the spouse. It is not mandatory. And, of course, will not permit the person to get married to someone else. I would say that separation, in this case, is aimed at a medicinal effect - show to the spouse that denies sex the objective grave sinfulness of his course of action (again, provided there is no deep psychological issues involved - but when there are, sometimes this was an invalid marriage from the beginning).

 

[agapewolf]

As it has been stated here already, …

I suggest people go look at the OP’s posts he’s made in the past before blaming the wife, and especially before making any such suggestions about what to do.

I’m not saying she’s completely innocent, but there is WAY more going on here than the simple scenario people are commenting on …mean wife denying innocent husband. And this was all told by the OP in past threads.

 

[Marie5890]

As it has been stated here already, …

I suggest people go look at the OP’s posts he’s made in the past before blaming the wife, and especially before making any such suggestions about what to do.

I’m not saying she’s completely innocent, but there is WAY more going on here than the simple scenario people are commenting on …mean wife denying innocent husband. And this was all told by the OP in past threads.

You are right. We should not be blaming the wife. We really are not privy as to what reality is in this situation, since all we have been told is one side of the story.

This couple really needs to be discussing this with professionals and/or pastors.
If the OP is the only one open to such council and the wife does not want to go, then he still needs to seek help.

This is beyond the scope of any of us here.
If his only question is about divorce in terms of Catholic teaching, well that has been stated clearly to him as well.

It’s why I think it’s more of a venting situation for him than not. We really are not in the position to help other than some brief advise.

 

[MainBrain]

As it has been stated here already, …

I suggest people go look at the OP’s posts he’s made in the past before blaming the wife, and especially before making any such suggestions about what to do.

I’m not saying she’s completely innocent, but there is WAY more going on here than the simple scenario people are commenting on …mean wife denying innocent husband. And this was all told by the OP in past threads.

What exactly do you mean? I try my best to be a loving husband? I am NOT mentally ill and I am working full time. I have fallen and I am not perfect. But my W has clearly shown no interest in me. I’m not trying to be a victim here, but I kind of am in this scenario. She simply does not care.

 

[MainBrain]

Yes, I agree with the posters that state perhaps it is a physical reason, a hormonal one or something else… OP, if your spouse is normal in every other regard towards you, perhaps she needs to see if there is a physical reason for having a low or non exisitant libido.

If she sees how this effects you, she will go to the doctor for a physical. Right now she may see nothing is wrong, as she does not have these needs, but start with thiis path.

If the physical comes back normal, then proceed with getting her help with counseling. To do counseling first will not help if it is physical.

If she refuses to go to the doctor-well-thats a mess that needs to be addressed with perhaps seperation until she partners with you for her healing.

This is an interesting point. I do not have the courage to separate now but I think that’s the only thing that would make her think. She refuses to see a doctor or get any help.

 

[MainBrain]

From a point of view of someone who works with Canon Law and annulments, constantly denying sex to a husband or wife is a grave sin (provided, of course, there are no grave psychological issues involved) that not only forbids someone to receive Communion, but also gives the spouse who is forced into abstinence a just cause for separation.

My old books of Moral Theology and Canon Law (19th century, first half of the 20th century, some of them written in Latin) all say this. You cannot impose abstinence on the other spouse without a grave just cause (of course, if you were abused or have psychological problems, it is a whole different matter - “ad impossibilia nemo tenetur” - no one is obliged to do the impossible).

Denying the other spouse sex may expose the spouse to danger of falling gravely in other kinds of sexual sins - adultery, porn, masturbation etc. It is more common than you think, and we see this happen a lot in annulment process (specially with men).

Although denying sex on a constant basis is not a cause for annulment “per se” (it could be if it is linked with some psychological impairment prior to marriage), it sure is a cause for separation.

But remember: separation in these cases is a faculty granted to the spouse. It is not mandatory. And, of course, will not permit the person to get married to someone else. I would say that separation, in this case, is aimed at a medicinal effect - show to the spouse that denies sex the objective grave sinfulness of his course of action (again, provided there is no deep psychological issues involved - but when there are, sometimes this was an invalid marriage from the beginning).

Impressive reply. Thank you.
So you’re saying if I got divorced for this reason I could NOT get remarried?
I have read my W 1 Cor 7 where it says do not withhold relations from your spouse. She never knew that existed. It made no difference to her.
I think the only thing that might wake her up is a separation. But I do not have the courage now.
I sure can’t go single for the rest of my life. I couldn’t get remarried?

 

[Xantippe]

Impressive reply. Thank you.
So you’re saying if I got divorced for this reason I could NOT get remarried?
I have read my W 1 Cor 7 where it says do not withhold relations from your spouse. She never knew that existed. It made no difference to her.
I think the only thing that might wake her up is a separation. But I do not have the courage now.
I sure can’t go single for the rest of my life. I couldn’t get remarried?

Talk to your pastor.

This is a ridiculous place to look for complicated advice on a complicated marital situation, especially when there may be issues with validity, and especially when your MO is to ask questions on the forum with only a tiny amount of background information and then dribble out more information with little or no context. Garbage in, garbage out–or inadequate information in, inadequate answers out.

Talk to your pastor and talk to a counselor.

 

[Marie5890]

But remember: separation in these cases is a faculty granted to the spouse. It is not mandatory. And, of course, will not permit the person to get married to someone else. I would say that separation, in this case, is aimed at a medicinal effect - show to the spouse that denies sex the objective grave sinfulness of his course of action (again, provided there is no deep psychological issues involved - but when there are, sometimes this was an invalid marriage from the beginning).

Yes, this is important to point out.

Divorce and remarriage is not something that the Catholic church recognizes.

 

[Rau]

Yes, this is important to point out.

Divorce and remarriage is not something that the Catholic church recognizes.

Divorce is accepted as something which may be a necessity, eg. To ensure children are properly cared for and an appropriate claim on assets is made. This does not seem a relevant scenario for the OP.