Sexual Abuse in other faiths?

[Muze]

Protestant clergy have higher rates than Catholic. Shouldn’t we have higher expectations from the people who claim to be born-again and the true Christians?

Which seems higher: Someone who claims to be a Christian, or someone who claims to be the sole representative of Christ on the earth?

If a Protestant group gets embarrassed by a pedophile minister, they often go off and start another “church” or change the name or whatever so they can break all links and start off with a clean slate. Not comparable to the Catholic Church.

Sure, but that’s the individual doing so, and not an organization making it happen.

 

[Muze]

It is just as bad or worse anywhere else.

Sexual abuse of a minor knows no boundaries of faith, religion, denomination, profession, economical situation, gender, sexual preference, and anything else we want to label and/or classify.

One abuse is enough…

But is the cover up and enabling of abusers to continue to abuse acceptable?

 

[CopticChristian]

No, here is my first offering to your question:

Now this is the third time I have given you an explicit answer to this question, including a direct link to an example of this allegation being made and a senior cleric admitting the validity of the accusation. For those unwilling or unable to click on a link:

Dr.,

Let us get on the same page…

What about this answer do you fail to understand?

Here is what you said…

**
As it happens in the Catholic Church, and not only goes unreported but there was and maybe still is a large and well-oiled machinery set in place to try to cover it up. So the net result is that we know almost nothing about this very important and worrying field of crime.

There are two related but seperate allegations against the Catholic Church here.**

The Church, the Catholic Church is what you are talking about here. Your statement is “as it happens in the Catholic Church”…this means the whole Church, not one specific Church and then you go on to say that there are seperate allegations and your evidence for who is making the allegation is a particular Bishop in Melbourne.

As it happens in the Catholic Church, and not only goes unreported but there was and maybe still is a large and well-oiled machinery set in place to try to cover it up. So the net result is that we know almost nothing about this very important and worrying field of crime.

There are two related but seperate allegations against the Catholic Church here.

1. That Catholic priests have a significantly higher incidence of reported child abuse than the general population
2. That when a Catholic priest is found to have abused a child, that the Church reacts to cover up the incident. That ‘safeguarding teams’ act to safeguard the Church against scandal, rather than safeguarding children against abuse. That Catholics in general are more offended by the accuser than by the accused, regardless of the truth of the accusation.
   I personally would be more worried about the second accusation. Certainly the first implies greater personal culpability on the part of the individuals involved, but the second is the more damaging in the long run.

Your generalization that “as it happens”, suggesting that there are allegations is actually answered by you that a Bishop says…

While expressing remorse for the delayed action, Melbourne Archbishop Denis Hart admitted before a Victorian parliamentary inquiry into child abuse by clergy that the Roman Catholic Church’s culture of secrecy and cover up is to blame for the situation.

This is a statement from one Bishop, not the Bishop of Rome and although may be true does not indicate what you say…

What is more accurate is to say…

A Bishop in Melbourne has stated…that there is secrecy…however to use this as a generalization that provides you to state…

there are two allegations is formulated improperly, without justification and is a generalization from the statement of one Bishop.

Your premise is wrongly formulated.

Any premise you have as it regards “The Church”…needs to be formulated based on information from the Vatican.

Try again.

 

[GraceSofia]

Sure, but that’s the individual doing so, and not an organization making it happen.

The Catholic Church does not “make it happen.” Individual bishops may have done it, but not the Church.

Catholic clergy abuse at lower rates than Protestant clergy, school teachers, etc.

The Exec. Committee of the Southern Baptists refused to establish a database of Southern Baptist offenders because they saw what happened to to the Catholic Church --which keeps records. So the Baptists just don’t have records. Easy way out.

Just 3 entries from Baptist leaders’ collusion with clergy sex abuse. More at the link.

Murrill Boitnott (former senior pastor of Wayside Baptist Church in Miami and currently the president of Macedonian Call Ministries): Even after staff minister Keith Geren admitted to sexually abusing 10 teen boys, pastor Boitnott couldn’t bring himself to recommend that Geren be fired or even that he have no further contact with church youth. Later, it came out that Geren had also abused boys during his prior stint at First Baptist Church of Lakeland where Boitnott was also working at the time.

Augie Boto (an SBC vice-president): Rationalized and justified the Southern Baptist Convention’s inclusion of criminally convicted sex offenders on the Southern Baptist registry of ministers. Though Boto himself acknowledges that abusive ministers have been able to church-hop and that most sex offenders have no criminal record, he nevertheless insists that the Southern Baptist Convention cannot keep denominational records on credibly-accused clergy child molesters. Boto was identified by the SBC’s president as the de-facto “man in charge of the subcommittee” that was supposed to study Baptist clergy sex abuse but effectively did nothing.

James Crittenden (former staff minister at Southmont Baptist Church in Denton, TX): When the church’s senior pastor was sued on allegations of sexually abusing a 14-year-old, and after the pastor made an apology, Crittenden tried to hush it up (while leaving the pastor in the pulpit) by asking the newspaper not to run the story and telling them it would be destructive to “the cause of Christ.”

 

[HabemusFrancis]

It appears that the Church has cleaned up her act significantly in protecting children.

However, there is still work to be done.

Pope Francis will need to be proactive about expelling abusive clergy from contact with minors.

We saw what happened to the archdioceses of Boston, Los Angeles, and Philadelphia. Why, in 5 years time, would the dioceses of Rio De Janiero, Buenos Aires, and Mexico City be any different? Why shouldnt those Latin American dioceses be bankrupted/ scandalized the way their American counterparts were?

This could be prevented, if Francis insists that the Latin American Church take a proactive energetic, transparent stance on abuse issues, i.e no footdraggin on supbeonas, no bullying victims from years past, helping the laity overcome this issue, etc., etc.

I only hope he does…

 

[DrTaffy]

Let us get on the same page…

Well, in all good faith I couldn’t honestly make much sense of most of that post. For example:

The Church, the Catholic Church is what you are talking about here. Your statement is “as it happens in the Catholic Church”…this means the whole Church, not one specific Church and then you go on to say that there are seperate allegations and your evidence for who is making the allegation is a particular Bishop in Melbourne.

How is the Catholic Church not one specific Church? How is evidence of an ArchBishop not only facing such allegations but also admitting that they have some validity not evidence that such allegations are made?

For that matter, are you really trying to call into the question the fact that such allegations are made?

This is a statement from one Bishop, not the Bishop of Rome and although may be true does not indicate what you say…

Well, that, while bizarre and irrational, is at least a relatively easy demand to understand and satisfy. Why you think only a quote from the Pope will do, I don’t know, but mere seconds on Google gets me this:

The Pope admitted yesterday that the Roman Catholic Church had failed children by not dealing “swiftly and decisively” with clerical sex abuse.

(That is Pope Benedict, for those who don’t read the original linked article)

But that is all you get, unless you can provide a polite and rational explanation for why you are demanding further proof. If you have something genuinely wrong with you such that you cannot use search engines, you have my sympathy but no more of my time.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, in all good faith I couldn’t honestly make much sense of most of that post. For example:

How is the Catholic Church not one specific Church? How is evidence of an ArchBishop not only facing such allegations but also admitting that they have some validity not evidence that such allegations are made?

For that matter, are you really trying to call into the question the fact that such allegations are made?

Well, that, while bizarre and irrational, is at least a relatively easy demand to understand and satisfy. Why you think only a quote from the Pope will do, I don’t know, but mere seconds on Google gets me this:

(That is Pope Benedict, for those who don’t read the original linked article)

But that is all you get, unless you can provide a polite and rational explanation for why you are demanding further proof. If you have something genuinely wrong with you such that you cannot use search engines, you have my sympathy but no more of my time.

Dr.,

You dissapoint me. You followed the quest as laid out and failed to see what it is you have proposed. Go back to your original statement…

There are two related but seperate allegations against the Catholic Church here.

1. That Catholic priests have a significantly higher incidence of reported child abuse than the general population

1. That when a Catholic priest is found to have abused a child, that the Church reacts to cover up the incident. That ‘safeguarding teams’ act to safeguard the Church against scandal, rather than safeguarding children against abuse. That Catholics in general are more offended by the accuser than by the accused, regardless of the truth of the accusation.

I asked who made the allegations and you put up an article of a Bishop in Melbourne. I then pointed out that this is not coming from the Vatican and you went down that path to produce something from the Vatican. You failed to see that by directing you to the Vatican, it had nothing to do with allegations, it had to do with admissions and you grabbed that opportunity, not seeing the difference between an allegation and an admission.

I concede that the Bishop and the Pope have conceded that there is a problem. This does not support your statement.

Let me make this simple.

Allegation does not equal admission.

Allegations come from someone and those that have those allegations made against them have the ability to admit or deny.

So, you have not produced any evidence of “who made the allegations”…what you have done is provide admissions of what you say are seperate allegations without satisfying the request to produce support for your statement.

Give me the source for those making allegations…not admissions that satisfy your statement that allegations have been made.

Try again.

It is possible that you can reformulate your statement to say…

Admissions have been made that pedophelia is a sin and that the Church failed to respond and there is admission that there is a problem.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Which seems higher: Someone who claims to be a Christian, or someone who claims to be the sole representative of Christ on the earth?

Sure, but that’s the individual doing so, and not an organization making it happen.

But is the cover up and enabling of abusers to continue to abuse acceptable?

Never is it acceptable to intentionally deceive by cover up or to act as enablers of child abuse!

This is not however a competition of which minister of a denomination can be the worse or more of an evil child sex abuser or which religious organization can be more uncaring of victims, more conniving in covering up of actual abuses.

We now know the problem is a systemic one, affecting ALL organizations and segments in society, even in private homes, where children are present. We now know child sex abusers can and do succeed in finding their way into positions of authority or lines of work that has involvement with children. Priest, minister, deacon. Teacher, coach, counsellor, camp leader. No Christian church organization is immune, not even the largest and most visible of all, the Catholic Church, yes, the one true Church.

How or why is the one true Church not exempted? Remember that the close circle of Apostles to whom Christ entrusted and delegated the mission of saving souls was infiltrated by a betrayer, Judas. But the eleven were all good men, not perfect, as they were men, who chose another worthy of the mission, Matthias.

Through all these scandals, let us not forget that a majority of priests have remained true to their calling and holy work. And still, these non-child-abusing and holy priests and the bishops above them are not perfect on every level, in every way. The only perfect priest is our High Priest, Jesus Christ.

There are Judases in the hierarchy of every group, also the Christian organization under which you belong.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

It appears that the Church has cleaned up her act significantly in protecting children.

However, there is still work to be done.

Pope Francis will need to be proactive about expelling abusive clergy from contact with minors.

We saw what happened to the archdioceses of Boston, Los Angeles, and Philadelphia. Why, in 5 years time, would the dioceses of Rio De Janiero, Buenos Aires, and Mexico City be any different? Why shouldnt those Latin American dioceses be bankrupted/ scandalized the way their American counterparts were?

This could be prevented, if Francis insists that the Latin American Church take a proactive energetic, transparent stance on abuse issues, i.e no footdraggin on supbeonas, no bullying victims from years past, helping the laity overcome this issue, etc., etc.

I only hope he does…

You started in your original post lamenting the Catholic Church clergy sex abuse of children and asked about the same problem in other faiths. Your post now expresses a wish of continued work. Well, the work has to continue, even past the current Pope. Satan tempted Jesus Christ and I don’t think he will stop at any time to tempt priests or exempt any priest from temptation.

Information offered and discussion in this thread help explain a complex problem, clergy abuse in the Catholic Church, the factors that led to the crisis, and what the Church has done in the last decade. The steps instituted to stem wrongdoing with a close eye on prevention are just bearing fruit. Sure, there are cases that still are getting discovered, kind of like claims during tail coverage of malpractice insurance, with the numbers greatly dwindled or dwindling. The “statistic of one” is the guiding principle of the best practices program undertaken by the CC: one abuse is too many. The windows are closing if not closed down in the parishes of dioceses where problem clergy have been identified. New crop is still replacing the old, so it will take time.

It would be hard to think there is no plan or no program roll out or a version thereof being applied in problem dioceses outside the U.S. Each diocese grappling with credible child sex abuse claims and problem members of the clergy require systematic clean up, continuing resolve, resources and time. Imagine a large multinational company with hundreds of affiliate and subordinate companies … Unfortunately, the only environment where zero abuse can be guaranteed is cessation of all ministry that puts together in any physical proximity the minister and the ministered (youth).

The thread served as an opening to those who simply wish to pile it on, repeating misconception, misrepresentation and exaggeration. And then there are those, the irreligious, who add to the conversation motivated to help bring the Catholic Church to her knees as punishment for her teaching on homosexuality and position against gay “marriage.”

Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church.
,

 

[lerapt78]

The thread served as an opening to those who simply wish to pile it on, repeating misconception, misrepresentation and exaggeration. And then there are those, the irreligious, who add to the conversation motivated to help bring the Catholic Church to her knees as punishment for her teaching on homosexuality and position against gay “marriage.”
,

Yes, I noticed this as well.

OP I made a post consisting of a long list of examples of abuse in many different faiths. There are many, many more examples, but I didn’t want to take up an entire page. A few of the examples I gave however, report not only the sexual abuse, but a “cover-up” within the community as well. Were you able to take the time to read any them? Any opinions on them? They do address the crux of your thread.

 

[rom422]

That page is quite clear that you cannot directly compare those figures. One is the incidence of abuse per 100 000 children, the other is the number of cases per 100 000 confirmations in a particular year. The same old problem of trying to compare two figures from different datasets with different definitions.

Not so fast, DrTaffy. The other statistic (the incidence of child sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests) is only an approximation, as the article itself stated. However, the important thing is that the approximation tends to overestimate rather than underestimate the incidence of child sexual abuse committed by priests, because the number of young people confirmed would obviously be less than the total number of children encountered by priests in any particular year. This means that, if we had more exact means for calculating the incidence of child sexual abuse committed by Catholic priests, then we would get an even smaller incidence, and this will only reinforce the evidence that the incidence of child sexual abuse by Catholic priests is smaller than the incidence of child sexual abuse by the general population.

 

[Tarpeian]

I have read exactly the same thing, in fact there is a book unfortunately I can’t remember the name but it mentioned that the diary of one of these activists was found after his death and the book mentioned how he was able to successfully enter the seminar and how he worked to destroy the church from the inside.

To bad these gays don’t read the scripture Holy Mother Church can’t be destroyed. The only destruction they are doing is to their souls.

Pax,
Tarpeian

 

[Tarpeian]

16 yr old boys aren’t quite children, yet not quite men. One 16 yr old boy may have the intellect and maturity to give consent, while another may not - it depends on the kid. Surely one can see a difference between sexual exploration between 2 teenagers (regardless of gender), and 40 yr old man and an immature teenager - one who lacks the protection and guidance of family. When I speak of pedophiles, the victims are not always easily defined, but for the most part, the victims I am referring to are children - at a level of maturity that is truly unable to give consent because they lack the understanding, unaware of the consequences. Again - this crime is more about power than sex. The pedophile may be attracted to same sex victims, but the difference between the pedophile and a homosexual is that the pedophile is not attracted to, and often unable to participate in a sexual relationship with an adult. Some pedophiles seek relationships with women who have children in order to have access to the child. When the crime comes to light, the women often remark that their boyfriend or husband was outwardly affectionate, but actual sex was rare and ‘perfunctory’ - used in order to keep up the ‘benevolent outward persona’.

You may see both homosexuality and pedophilia as evil and deviant, but I assure you - there is a difference between the two.

Are you suggesting that homosexual sex is never about power?

 

[Tarpeian]

Shouldn’t an organization claiming to be the THE representation of Christ in the earth be doing significantly better than the population as a whole on child sexual abuse?

Shouldn’t an organization claiming to be able to form inerrant doctrine have sufficient integrity to expose and expel members of the clergy who engage in child sexual abuse rather than paying off victims and shifting the priest to another parish where he can do it again in an attempt to cover up the abuse in the name of saving face?

Or should we not have higher expectations from an organization who claims these things?

Your first question, no.
Your second question, no.
Your third question, yes.

God does not interfere with free will or he would not be God. The apostles lived with The God Man and they were hardly perfect. And yes anyone who claims to be a disciple should hold oneself to a higher standard. “To who much has been given, much will be expected.”

 

[Tarpeian]

Shouldn’t an organization claiming to be the THE representation of Christ in the earth be doing significantly better than the population as a whole on child sexual abuse?

Shouldn’t an organization claiming to be able to form inerrant doctrine have sufficient integrity to expose and expel members of the clergy who engage in child sexual abuse rather than paying off victims and shifting the priest to another parish where he can do it again in an attempt to cover up the abuse in the name of saving face?

Or should we not have higher expectations from an organization who claims these things?

Your first question, no.
Your second question, no.
Your third question, yes.

God does not interfere with free will or he would not be God. The apostles lived with The God Man and they were hardly perfect. And yes anyone who claims to be a disciple should hold oneself to a higher standard. “To who much has been given, much will be expected.”

 

[GraceSofia]

You started in your original post lamenting the Catholic Church clergy sex abuse of children and asked about the same problem in other faiths. Your post now expresses a wish of continued work. Well, the work has to continue, even past the current Pope. Satan tempted Jesus Christ and I don’t think he will stop at any time to tempt priests or exempt any priest from temptation.

Information offered and discussion in this thread help explain . . .

The thread served as an opening to those who simply wish to pile it on, repeating misconception, misrepresentation and exaggeration. And then there are those, the irreligious, who add to the conversation motivated to help bring the Catholic Church to her knees as punishment for her teaching on homosexuality and position against gay “marriage.”

Jesus said the gates of hell shall not prevail against His Church.

Good post, InSearchofGrace.

 

[Muze]

The Catholic Church does not “make it happen.” Individual bishops may have done it, but not the Church.

Funny how individuals write Scripture, and they’re the Church, but individuals who sexually abuse children who are actual bishops in the hierarchy aren’t.

And the Church was actively covering up these problems, enabling priests to move on to other parishes and abuse again.

Catholic clergy abuse at lower rates than Protestant clergy, school teachers, etc.

Oh, so because you don’t abuse as much, that’s OK?

The Exec. Committee of the Southern Baptists refused to establish a database of Southern Baptist offenders because they saw what happened to to the Catholic Church --which keeps records. So the Baptists just don’t have records. Easy way out.

Sounds like the SBC has the same problems that the RCC does.

Just 3 entries from Baptist leaders’ collusion with clergy sex abuse. More at the link.

Sounds like the RCC and SBC have similar problems.

 

[Muze]

Your first question, no.
Your second question, no.
Your third question, yes.

God does not interfere with free will or he would not be God. The apostles lived with The God Man and they were hardly perfect. And yes anyone who claims to be a disciple should hold oneself to a higher standard. “To who much has been given, much will be expected.”

Shouldn’t the Church as a whole be held to a higher standard?

 

[GraceSofia]

Oh, so because you don’t abuse as much, that’s OK?

No, of course not, but the the topic of the thread is “Sexual abuse in other faiths?” Notice the question mark. The mainstream media and anti-Catholics try to spread the lie that it is only a Catholic Church problem, but it is not, and this is what I am addressing. It is a human problem. The narrative that has been spun is more about trying to discredit the Catholic Church than it is about protecting children. And that is a pity because the Catholic Church is the one, true, holy Church which Jesus founded.

***"Treat the Catholic Church as Divine only and you will stumble over her scandals, her failures, and her shortcomings. Treat her as Human only and you will be silenced by her miracles, her sanctity, and her eternal resurrections.

"And, above all, she gives proof of her Divinity by that very sign to which Christ Himself pointed as a proof of His own. Granted that she dies daily – that her cause fails in this century and in that country; that her science is discredited in this generation and her active morality in that and her ideals in a third – how comes it that she also rises daily from the dead; that her old symbols rise again from their ruins; that her virtues are acclaimed by the children of the men who renounced her; that her bells and her music sound again where once her churches and houses were laid waste?

“Here, then, is the Catholic answer and it is this alone that makes sense of history, as it is Catholic doctrine which alone makes sense of the Gospel record. The answer is identical in both cases alike, and it is this – that the only explanation of the phenomena of the Gospels and of Church history is that the Life which produces them is both Human and Divine.” ~ R.H. Benson***

 

[CopticChristian]

And the Church was actively covering up these problems, enabling priests to move on to other parishes and abuse again.

Oh, so because you don’t abuse as much, that’s OK?

Sounds like the SBC has the same problems that the RCC does.

Sounds like the RCC and SBC have similar problems.

Funny how individuals write Scripture, and they’re the Church, but individuals who sexually abuse children who are actual bishops in the hierarchy aren’t.

There is nothing funny about this…

Have you not read about “disobedience” in the OT when studying the people that God led…there were those that were and those that were not. This is not funny.