Sexual diversity, God's design, and the Catholic explanation

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Far more people take part in sports now than they did 100 years ago. Just look at football and baseball. Far more people playing these now than 100 years ago. The more people you have taking part in any sport naturally means you are going to have a higher and higher quality at the very top.

An improvement in Olympic records is inevitable with more and more children taking up sports and giving things a go. If we had the same number of participants taking part in Olympic sports now as 100 years ago, the quality of sportsmen/women qualifying for the Olympic games would look quiet ordinary.
This is not nessasarily true. The world’s fastest sprinters all come from a western African heritage. This is because of their genetics. Their genetics that have not regressed, but rather mixed through breeding with natural selection weeding out the genetically unfavorable. If anything is causing a false image of some sort of genetic entropy, it is modern medicine keeping those alive and well who have biologically unfavorable genetic traits that are being passed along to their offspring.
 
They were a different subspecies. I guess I should say they weren’t the modern humans we have today. It is off point regardless and leads us no closer to the claim that genetics are regressing.
The line between species and subspecies, when only bones remain, can get rather shaded and subjective. Alien paleontologists 3,000,000 years from now might not consider Chihuahuas and Great Danes to be the same species.

If Neanderthals bred into human life, that would IIUC make them human, however different they looked.

ICXC NIKA
 
This is not nessasarily true. The world’s fastest sprinters all come from a western African heritage. This is because of their genetics. Their genetics that have not regressed, but rather mixed through breeding with natural selection weeding out the genetically unfavorable.
This means nothing. Some ethnic groups are going to be better at some things than others. An Inuit is never likely to win the high jump but he’s more likely to survive in cold weather than a Kenyan. A Kenyan being a better runner than an Inuit has nothing to do with “better” genetics because his genetics would then be “worse off” for bad weather.

Human beings adapt to their environment (creating ethnic groups) in the same way that finches on the Galapagos adapt to the different islands creating different species (or “ethnic groups”) of finches.
 
This means nothing. Some ethnic groups are going to be better at some things than others. An Inuit is never likely to win the high jump but he’s more likely to survive in cold weather than a Kenyan. A Kenyan being a better runner than an Inuit has nothing to do with “better” genetics because his genetics would then be “worse off” for bad weather.

Human beings adapt to their environment (creating ethnic groups) in the same way that finches on the Galapagos adapt to the different islands creating different species (or “ethnic groups”) of finches.
This means everything. Genetics are not regressing, they are adapting to the environment through natural selection.
 
If Adam was so perfect, why was he so quick to rebel and sin and cause the entire fall of humanity, thereby causing God to send his son to earth to be tortured and killed?

Many of the studies/research I’ve seen posted here of late have to do with homosexuality originating in the womb due to hormones, and point out that homosexuality runs in families.

And, of course, we see it in many animals.

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Animals don’t have human cognition. Whatever may, or may not, be occurring in the womb is not the issue. We have the ability to choose. We have standards that we can apply. The science is still not settled regarding human beings.

sciencemag.org/news/2015/10/homosexuality-may-be-caused-chemical-modifications-dna

Ed
 
Genetics are not regressing, they are adapting to the environment through natural selection.
God programmed it into the genetic code of man and animals the ability to adapt to their surroundings. If man and animals were completely rigid in their makeup they wouldn’t be able to fill the entire earth (hot parts and cold parts) but only parts of the earth. Its this ability to adapt we see on the Galapogos with finches. But a finch can never evolve into another completely different creature. That is seen nowhere on the Galapagos or anywhere else for that matter.

This is why we have so many different skin colors amongst humans. Humans in hot climates have adapted a dark skin color while those in colder climates have adapted a lighter skin color. Adaption occurs. Evolution from one creature into a completely different creature doesn’t occur. This is why we see so many variations of one type of animal (ie all the different species of dogs for example) but never see it evolving into another completely different kind of animal.

Even though our genetic code is breaking down due to genetic degradation, we still have the ability to adapt to our surroundings (albeit at a less imperfect rate than we used to be able to).

Neanderthals are simply an extinct ethnic group of humans that adapted a slightly stocky human figure in order to minimize heat loss in the cooler environments neanderthals are found in (similar to Inuits today). They didn’t evolve from an ape-like creature as evolutionists would have you believe. And the evidence is obvious - there are no lead-in transitional fossils to neanderthals. We have multiple neanderthals skeletons around the world in museums and absolutely nothing before them. Not even one single lead-in transitional fossil! Man appears abruptly in the fossil record just like in the genesis account.
 
There is only sexual complementarity, not diversity. Diversity indicates shades of gray, which clouds and confuses. Faces, fingerprints and souls are diverse. Genders, “gender identity” and disordered sexual practices are not.

Diversity in our age has been considered to be perversity throughout human history.
patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/if-god-only-made-male-female-what-about-intersex/
The majority of people do seem to be clearly male or female—one more reason I think the author of Genesis is speak in general categories—but for every 2,500-4,500 live births a child is born whose body is intersex.
Intersex refers to a variety of physical differences where people have male and female characteristics
—XXY chromosomes or internal reproductive organs of one sex with external sex characteristics of the other, for example. They sometimes result in ambiguous genitals so that doctors are not sure whether to assign the sex of male or female on the birth certificate but other times differences show up later in life—in early childhood or at puberty. Physicians often use the term Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) but many within the intersex community prefer “Differences” of Sex Development—a more neutral term. [When I use DSD, I mean “Differences” of Sex Development.]
Also, complementarity refers to more than just the physical/biological complementarity (at the reproductive level). The traditional (Catholic) framework is that men and women complement each other in their totality, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, etc. But I could very well point to homosexual persons and ask where such complementarity exists (beyond the physical, external features). Many homosexual persons find themselves in complementary relationships with members of the same sex, for example.
 
Evolution from one creature into a completely different creature doesn’t occur. This is why we see so many variations of one type of animal (ie all the different species of dogs for example) but never see it evolving into another completely different kind of animal.
Why does this matter to you, if I may ask? Do you think this based off of the science? Because, respectfully, the science points toward biological evolution on the macro scale. So what? It is not contrary to faith. And I see no reason to think there is much of a qualitative difference from admitting evolution/adaptation within a species and then saying that, over time, such adaptation is so different from the initial characteristics that we have no choice but to identify a different creature.

But anyway, this is off topic.
 
Why does this matter to you, if I may ask? Do you think this based off of the science? Because, respectfully, the science points toward biological evolution on the macro scale. So what? It is not contrary to faith. And I see no reason to think there is much of a qualitative difference from admitting evolution/adaptation within a species and then saying that, over time, such adaptation is so different from the initial characteristics that we have no choice but to identify a different creature.

But anyway, this is off topic.
I think having a clear understanding of how our bodies are breaking down genetically can make it easier to understand why some people have homosexual tendencies. Its not that God made them that way as if God is giving his blessing to homosexual tendencies, but that human beings genetic code is simply breaking down.

The same goes for cancer. Rather than thinking God is striking a person down with cancer (as if He was some mean God), its better to understand that God is doing no such thing but that our bodies are simply breaking down and this can happen to anyone rather than God specifically targeting people.
 
Anything which disrupts the proper working of humans is a flaw. From Down’s syndrome to to a proclivity to a certain type of sin to cancer to mental illness, these are flaws in the functioning of the human who has one or more of them. And they are all crosses. We are to accept them, overcome them if necessary, and grow in holiness by doing so.
I think this is the key. For there are many human conditions that are not ideal, nor part of God’s ultimate plan. But as someone else said, they are part of his permissive will.

The question then becomes – do such conditions, such as Down’s Syndrome, or even same-sex attraction – only exist because of the Fall?

I guess my problem is this: On the one hand, we have a traditional narrative that states that the Fall introduced evil, including physical evils, into the human world. This would mean that it was the Fall that brought about diseases, sickness, and disordered conditions. Some go further and say that the Fall brought about all physical evils and imperfections, such as animal pain and suffering. However, I think science rejects that view, and the Church does not require that view.

Even so, and although we can never have scientific evidence about what the conditions for the first man and woman were like (since their innocence in “paradise” or the “garden” lasted so shortly), it seems odd and out-of-place that the first humans were placed in a world that included natural processes, such as biological evolution, plate tectonics (produces earthquakes and volcanoes), certain atmospheric conditions (producing deadly storms), and everything else that renders a Universe imperfect and in a state of “journeying” (as the Catechism likes to say). When we especially consider biological evolution and related processes, we have to recognize the features built into nature that allow for imperfections, sicknesses, and disease. For example, consider animals before the fall. I do not think anyone honestly open to the evidence and science would say that animals did not feel pain or get sick before the fall. The gist of what I’m saying is that it seems the same, fundamental properties that allow for sickness and disorders in humans (such as Down Syndrome, same-sex attraction, or anything you want to consider destructive to a creature’s well-being) have always been built-into nature as part of our Universe.

On this basis, it seems that the fall of man should not be considered an introduction to a world with different physical properties as much as it should be considered the removal of some kind of special *divine protection *from a world that *would otherwise *contribute pain, suffering, disease, and even disorders such as homosexual attraction or intersex phenomena.

The basic dilemma then becomes: Why a world set up like this, in the first place? Why place humanity in a world that consists of natural processes that allow for disease, destruction, and disorder? It does not make much sense to me to say God made a world like that but desired to alter how humans particularly experience that world (with divine protections, for example). We know that one day, in a New Heaven and Earth, there will not be natural processes with the same effects. Why, then, create a Universe at first with these effects? Why place Man in such a universe?
 
I think having a clear understanding of how our bodies are breaking down genetically can make it easier to understand why some people have homosexual tendencies. Its not that God made them that way as if God is giving his blessing to homosexual tendencies, but that human beings genetic code is simply breaking down.

The same goes for cancer. Rather than thinking God is striking a person down with cancer (as if He was some mean God), its better to understand that God is doing no such thing but that our bodies are simply breaking down and this can happen to anyone rather than God specifically targeting people.
I basically agree with you in that I do not think God micromanages every part of his creation. He does not say “This person will be born blind!” etc. Natural processes are at work, ultimately in his providence and will, that allow for such diseases and disorders.

I do not think it is a valid argument to say, for example, “I was born gay so God made me that way!” Similarly, one shouldn’t say that God made this or that person with this or that disorder or handicap. Just because one is a certain way does not mean that God directly willed it.

I will say that I do honestly believe that same-sex attraction/homosexual orientation is not on the same level as, say, Down Syndrome or some other physical defect. The person who believes gay acts are wrong will say homosexual attraction is therefore a disorder. But on a purely neutral moral ground, one cannot simply say homosexual attraction is a disorder. So on this basis, being born gay does not prove God’s approval. But it sure doesn’t prove of his disapproval, either. Especially considering that, if someone is indeed born gay, then the traditional Catholic understanding would have to say someone was born with not just a disorder or sickness – but with a very particular, deep inclination to a specific sin.

However, the issue is why God sets up a world that allows these things in the first place. See my other recent post.
 
However, the issue is why God sets up a world that allows these things in the first place.
He didn’t set it up that way. God created a perfect world which he kept his guiding hand on. Then Adam decided he wanted to be his own god and so God acknowledged Adams free-will decision and God took his guiding hand off the world and the world began to fall apart.

The world we see around us is what a world looks like where God has taken his guiding hand off it. Everything starts to degenerate. I guess the lesson from the broken world we see around us is do we want to reject God or embrace Him? That’s why God doesn’t step in and fix everything. If he fixed everything, we’d all remain attached to this broken world and see no reason to reject it. By leaving the world pretty much in the state it is (with only very minimal interference in response to some prayers) God is showing us what life is like without God. Its like a forerunner to what hell would be like.

I understand though that if you believe in evolution, this explanation won’t make any sense to you. If you try to fit the evolutionary model into the gospel message, then very little makes sense. Thats why atheists push evolution so much. It jumbles up the bible and makes it incoherent.
 
God programmed it into the genetic code of man and animals the ability to adapt to their surroundings. If man and animals were completely rigid in their makeup they wouldn’t be able to fill the entire earth (hot parts and cold parts) but only parts of the earth. Its this ability to adapt we see on the Galapogos with finches. But a finch can never evolve into another completely different creature. That is seen nowhere on the Galapagos or anywhere else for that matter.

This is why we have so many different skin colors amongst humans. Humans in hot climates have adapted a dark skin color while those in colder climates have adapted a lighter skin color. Adaption occurs. Evolution from one creature into a completely different creature doesn’t occur. This is why we see so many variations of one type of animal (ie all the different species of dogs for example) but never see it evolving into another completely different kind of animal.

Even though our genetic code is breaking down due to genetic degradation, we still have the ability to adapt to our surroundings (albeit at a less imperfect rate than we used to be able to).

Neanderthals are simply an extinct ethnic group of humans that adapted a slightly stocky human figure in order to minimize heat loss in the cooler environments neanderthals are found in (similar to Inuits today). They didn’t evolve from an ape-like creature as evolutionists would have you believe. And the evidence is obvious - there are no lead-in transitional fossils to neanderthals. We have multiple neanderthals skeletons around the world in museums and absolutely nothing before them. Not even one single lead-in transitional fossil! Man appears abruptly in the fossil record just like in the genesis account.
Dogs came from wolves. They are a completely different species. There is even a species of animal that was once domesticated dogs. These dogs became wild, lost their ability to socialize with humans, and this trait is now passed on to their young each time they reproduce. That’s the basis for evolution. You continue to cite genetic degradation as a premise without any evidence to support it. At best, you have used a non-scientific book to attempt to construct a scientific claim. Fossil records are nothing when looking at evolution compared to the research being done in genetics. We share many, many genes with similar creatures.

You seem to be accepting a non-scientific book as scientific evidence to support your presupposed claim but yet you ignore actual scientific data when considering a scientific claim. If I remember right, even Origin and certainly Augustine rejected the idea that Genesis was a scientific or even a literal historical event.
 
He didn’t set it up that way. God created a perfect world which he kept his guiding hand on. Then Adam decided he wanted to be his own god and so God acknowledged Adams free-will decision and God took his guiding hand off the world and the world began to fall apart.

The world we see around us is what a world looks like where God has taken his guiding hand off it. Everything starts to degenerate. I guess the lesson from the broken world we see around us is do we want to reject God or embrace Him? That’s why God doesn’t step in and fix everything. If he fixed everything, we’d all remain attached to this broken world and see no reason to reject it. By leaving the world pretty much in the state it is (with only very minimal interference in response to some prayers) God is showing us what life is like without God. Its like a forerunner to what hell would be like.

I understand though that if you believe in evolution, this explanation won’t make any sense to you. If you try to fit the evolutionary model into the gospel message, then very little makes sense. Thats why atheists push evolution so much. It jumbles up the bible and makes it incoherent.
Or you could accept that the Genesis creation story is not literal and rather a poetical explination with fundamental truths attached. You could also recognize its significance in salvation history as a story to prepare those who read it for the coming of Christ.
 
Dogs came from wolves. They are a completely different species.
Wolves are dogs. Two wolves left the ark after Noahs flood and all dogs on earth today are descended from these two wolves. As they adapted to their various environments, these dogs adapted to form different species such as coyotes, hyenias, wild dogs etc.(just like how the different ethnic groups of humans were formed as humans adapted to their various new environments). But at no time did a dog evolve from a non-dog creature or evolve into a creature that is not a dog. The fossil record only shows dogs. It doesn’t show dogs evolving from a creature that is not a dog.

I don’t think we’re going to agree on this point. Ultimately, what a person believes about genesis isn’t essential, as salvation doesn’t depend on it. But believing in genesis does make the gospel message much easier to understand.
 
Wolves are dogs. Two wolves left the ark after Noahs flood and all dogs on earth today are descended from these two wolves. As they adapted to their various environments, these dogs adapted to form different species such as coyotes, hyenias, wild dogs etc.(just like how the different ethnic groups of humans were formed as humans adapted to their various new environments). But at no time did a dog evolve from a non-dog creature or evolve into a creature that is not a dog. The fossil record only shows dogs. It doesn’t show dogs evolving from a creature that is not a dog.

I don’t think we’re going to agree on this point. Ultimately, what a person believes about genesis isn’t essential, as salvation doesn’t depend on it. But believing in genesis does make the gospel message much easier to understand.
I suppose you also don’t recognize that modern birds came from reptile dinosaurs? You continue to take science from non-scientific sources. Just because it can make it easier to understand doesn’t make it a good idea to embrace it. The truth is what matters. Why reject the truths of science, which can only come from God? It is important for salvation because Catholics are leaving the faith because of a rejection of the truth of science. I was almost one of them.
 
He didn’t set it up that way. God created a perfect world which he kept his guiding hand on. Then Adam decided he wanted to be his own god and so God acknowledged Adams free-will decision and God took his guiding hand off the world and the world began to fall apart.

The world we see around us is what a world looks like where God has taken his guiding hand off it. Everything starts to degenerate. I guess the lesson from the broken world we see around us is do we want to reject God or embrace Him? That’s why God doesn’t step in and fix everything. If he fixed everything, we’d all remain attached to this broken world and see no reason to reject it. By leaving the world pretty much in the state it is (with only very minimal interference in response to some prayers) God is showing us what life is like without God. Its like a forerunner to what hell would be like.

I understand though that if you believe in evolution, this explanation won’t make any sense to you. If you try to fit the evolutionary model into the gospel message, then very little makes sense. Thats why atheists push evolution so much. It jumbles up the bible and makes it incoherent.
I think most in the church, especially most churchmen, accept biological evolution.

But yeah your explanation does not work too well when one accepts evolution.
 
Or you could accept that the Genesis creation story is not literal and rather a poetical explination with fundamental truths attached. You could also recognize its significance in salvation history as a story to prepare those who read it for the coming of Christ.
Do you think what I mentioned in my post earlier makes sense? Do you see my dilemma? I think you grasp my understanding that evolution is a natural process among other natural factors that God built-in to the universe. And these natural processes allow for disease and disorder.

What do you think about all this?
 
I suppose you also don’t recognize that modern birds came from reptile dinosaurs? You continue to take science from non-scientific sources. Just because it can make it easier to understand doesn’t make it a good idea to embrace it. The truth is what matters. Why reject the truths of science, which can only come from God? It is important for salvation because Catholics are leaving the faith because of a rejection of the truth of science. I was almost one of them.
God came before science was established as it is today. There are still surprises occurring in science. Unexpected findings or overlooked relationships. I’ve always liked science.

sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090609092055.htm

Best,
Ed
 
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