Sexual Identity, Faith, and Family - What a mess

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Yes, “normal” Catholics don’t do that, “normal” Catholics are in favor of gay marriage, “normal” is a terrible standard. When you limit the pool to people who are opposed to gay marriage, abortion and go to Mass at least twice a month the percentage who treat transwomen as freaks rises quite a bit, of course that is anecdotal data.

Do you routinely get treated as subhuman? No? Then you are much less in need of defending than transwomen, especially those of color who are a very vulnerable.

While the Catechism says the soul and body have the same gender, what if the brain is feminine and the genitalia are male? Transwomen feel as much women as David Reimer felt a man. I have witnessed profound insight by transgender people owing to their rare situation of having lived in both worlds. Perhaps transgender people exist to teach people something?

Oh please…

This song is over played.

 

[JustaSinner]

(I found time during the work week to get in one more post–but I doubt I’ll have time to follow up). As was pointed out in another thread, our unchanging God has already given His succinct opinion way back in the Pentateuch on the LGBT agenda/homosexual and transsexual inclinations among His People (and the world):

Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.

Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s clothing; for anyone who does such things is an abomination to the LORD, your God.

Of course, the Lord’s condemnation of what is lauded by the LGBT movement continues into the New Testament:
Romans 1:26 “Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another.”

Given that these actions prevent precious souls from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven, the only loving thing that can be done is to call damnable sin what it is–and lovingly plead with those ensnared to call out to the Lord for salvation from their sins.

Have a good week.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Oh please…

This song is over played.

What song is overplayed?

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

I love how people insist about genetically driven gender and yet very few people actually get a karyotype test done. “Your baby is so cute! Is it a boy or a girl?” “Dunno, we haven’t got the karyotype test back yet.”

Is someone with CAIS who is genetically male, but looks and think phenotypically female naturally really a boy? Should they be forced to get surgery and act like a man? If not why aren’t you trying to get them to resemble their genetically dictated gender?

Why do you frequently bring up CAIS, an intersex condition that has 1 in 20,400 prevalence? More than not, those who claim to be transgenders are male or female with their chromosomes and phenotype aligned, but their minds or brains do not accept their physical sex.

For individuals with CAIS and other intersex conditions, I can’t imagine many disagreeing with surgical correction that best fits and accommodates the person’s leaning towards one gender or another.

Karyotyping is not a routine prenatal test unless a gravid woman is 35 years or older, in which case, her OB would mention CVS or amniocentesis that involves karyotyping. Even then, women are known to decline having the test. Outside Western countries, physicians do not even suggest such prenatal tests it as it is not the standard of care.

They need to know that you and God love them, treating them like dirt and citing God for doing so pushes them away from God.

If because of your actions that the person believes God hates them then if they go to Hell part of the blame is at your feet.

I hate how so many “conservative” Catholics have no idea how to actually convert people and push ideas that only push people away from God.

Quite an indictment. Misplaced, it could be. You do not know if the actions of people participating in this forum would be the same actions of those people on the streets you describe.

Lots of transwomen get called “disgusting freaks”, “f***** in a dress”, “God hates people like you”, etc. Even if you’re minding your own business if you get clocked some men have a tendency to go ape**** crazy, especially against transwomen of color.

You picked up on the particular plight of transgenders of color. Are you talking about how they get discriminated or accosted as they are walking down the street, minding their business, as you say?
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[Joie_de_Vivre]

Why do you frequently bring up CAIS, an intersex condition that has 1 in 20,400 prevalence? More than not, those who claim to be transgenders are male or female with their chromosomes and phenotype aligned, but their minds or brains do not accept their physical sex.

For individuals with CAIS and other intersex conditions, I can’t imagine many disagreeing with surgical correction that best fits and accommodates the person’s leaning towards one gender or another.

Yes, CAIS is rare, so to are transgender people. Certainly their genotype and phenotype usually match up, but that does not mean that the brain itself is not affect.
Gender identity disorder in twins: a review of the case report literature.:

INTRODUCTION:

The etiology of gender identity disorder (GID) remains largely unknown. In recent literature, increased attention has been attributed to possible biological factors in addition to psychological variables.
AIM:

To review the current literature on case studies of twins concordant or discordant for GID.
METHODS:

A systematic, comprehensive literature review.
RESULTS:

Of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same-sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P=0.005). Of the seven opposite-sex twins, all were discordant for GID.
CONCLUSIONS:

These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146048

Best guess for the cause is under or overmasculinization is hormonal with genetics playing a part of course that study is far too small to be conclusive though getting enough transgender people with a monozygotic twin would be extremely hard.

Karyotyping is not a routine prenatal test unless a gravid woman is 35 years or older, in which case, her OB would mention CVS or amniocentesis that involves karyotyping. Even then, women are known to decline having the test. Outside Western countries, physicians do not even suggest such prenatal tests it as it is not the standard of care.

That comment was directed against the “your genes decide your sex and nothing can alter that” because if we went by that rule XY people with CAIS would be considered male despite being phenotypically female and psychologically female

Quite an indictment. Misplaced, it could be. You do not know if the actions of people participating in this forum would be the same actions of those people on the streets you describe.

Didst thou know that the word “you” can be a plural?

I once had conversation that took a turn to
“My life is miserable and there is no sign whatsoever that it is going to improve”
“Have faith in God that things will get better”
“I tried that and tried that, no matter how much I pleaded to God to fix me, to try to strike a bargain he never replied”
“God loves you, please don’t do anything rash”
“They say suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, only issue is that my issues are quite permanent since God shows no indication of trying to fix me”
“You know full well that suicide is a mortal sin, please don’t do it, I don’t want you to go to Hell”
“I’m going to Hell anyway, might as well speed it up”

What kind of torment causes a devout Catholic to completely break down and try to kill themself repeatedly despite knowing if they succeed they will go to Hell and if they don’t they’ll likely experience severe permanent damage? Praise the Lord that despite repeated hangings they are still alive and in decent health.

This is why this issue is so important to me, I have seen the profound damage by the stance of “conservative” Catholics being tactless in their spreading of “the truth”.

You picked up on the particular plight of transgenders of color. Are you talking about how they get discriminated or accosted as they are walking down the street, minding their business, as you say?
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They get abused by society quite a bit. They exist at the intersection of being women of color, therefore considered Jezebel, and being a transwoman, which is people consider them men attempting to seduce men to sleep with them. Basically they get subjected to gay panic on steroids.

 

[TarkanAttila]

Your concern makes me think about a talk Peter Kreeft once gave about Homosexuality in relation to Catholic Moral Theology. And he, too, was talking to a hostile, un-understanding audience.

One thing he said really kind of resonates with me when people get offended at homosexual Catholics. He was talking with a homosexual man. The man tried to make an analogy between the way he feels, and, say, if we were told we were wrong for being Catholic, but society still thinks, even though Catholics aren’t bad people, it’s being loving for teaching us how to live a non-Catholic life. Make sense?

To which Peter Kreeft replied, basically: Alright. But I find it interesting that you consider your homosexuality to be something like what I think Catholicism is.

I don’t think your family has thought through what they’re saying. (I’m not entirely sure most of the LGBT community has thought about what they’re saying, in relation to claims of truth, or meaning in life.) The way they think about you, your religion, and your bisexuality demonstrates a lack of critical thinking about the purpose of one’s life, or religion in relation to that. They seem to have bought, unquestioningly, into the zeitgeist, the modern way of thinking: with your emotions, and not with your brain.

Here’s Peter Kreeft’s talk. I think not only the information, but the tone, is relevant to your situation. www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXw73Hlw2c0

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I apologize for my abysmal grammar in my preceding post.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Yes, CAIS is rare, so to are transgender people. Certainly their genotype and phenotype usually match up, but that does not mean that the brain itself is not affect.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22146048

Best guess for the cause is under or overmasculinization is hormonal with genetics playing a part of course that study is far too small to be conclusive though getting enough transgender people with a monozygotic twin would be extremely hard.

That comment was directed against the “your genes decide your sex and nothing can alter that” because if we went by that rule XY people with CAIS would be considered male despite being phenotypically female and psychologically female

The prevalence of transgenderism is reported at 1 out of 333, CAIS 1 out of 20,400. It would be surprising that transgenders would have a high incidence of CAIS to explain the discord between their physical anatomy and chromosomes.

The cited NCBI study on GID on identical twins has qualifiers “possible” and “suggested” as to biological factors affecting the brains of transgenders, plus your phrase “best guess.” That is not saying that the etiology of transgenderism is anywhere near settled, notwithstanding the ardent arguments of transgender posters who come onto this board (I am not referring to you.)

Didst thou know that the word “you” can be a plural?

…

You could have been more clear to whom you are directing your objection or outrage when you replied to Hoosier Daddy then.

This is why this issue is so important to me, I have seen the profound damage by the stance of “conservative” Catholics being tactless in their spreading of “the truth”.

Your pronouncements on this board are not exactly tactful all the time. A lot of it is jarring, in fact. Perhaps that is your aim?

They get abused by society quite a bit. They exist at the intersection of being women of color, therefore considered Jezebel, and being a transwoman, which is people consider them men attempting to seduce men to sleep with them. Basically they get subjected to gay panic on steroids.

It is indeed a problem. My brother, a correctional officer in the state of California, would sometimes talk in conversation with me of the unique problems in the prison system presented by transgender inmates. Even if a transgender visibly has a bosom from hormone treatment or surgical breast augmentation, the presence of male sexual organs is the criterion in sending a trans inmate to a male prison. You can figure the additional complications in the system this presents. No need to go into the many scenarios and institution of special rules as a result of the mix of transgenders in the male prison population.

Abuse is inexcusable. Unfortunately, in the streets, and in and outside prison, one meets all sorts of people, the deranged, the bad and incompetent as well included among good, decent and well meaning folk. Police officers and medical professionals not exempted.

Joie, the following is not meant to put down any one you may know personally who is transgender of color.

The fact is many transgenders are in the sex trade. Further, while sex workers in general are more likely to be HIV-positive than those who do not engage in sex work, transgender female sex workers are at four times greater risk for contracting HIV than other female sex workers. This CDC report provides a snapshot of the problem of sexually active transgenders, especially those of the African American race.

Any transgender possessing wits and wherewithal, not wanting to be part of the sex trade, needs to avoid walking the streets, especially in a bad part of town, dressing like a prostitute and wearing exaggeratedly sexy dress and make up. This is just common sense. The same rule and conduct apply to women. Nobody asks to be accosted or raped, and it is true any resulting crime remains with the perpetrator not the victim. I had this type of post exchange with a transgender poster. In substance what I posted then is that there are decisions and behavior by transgenders to ward off possible ugly responses from the bad elements of society.

Btw, those familiar with your posts know you have excellent command of language and grammar and that your last post is not representative of your submissions.

,

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

The prevalence of transgenderism is reported at 1 out of 333, CAIS 1 out of 20,400. It would be surprising that transgenders would have a high incidence of CAIS to explain the discord between their physical anatomy and chromosomes.

1/333 is still a rare thing, also other sources estimate it as lower.

I’m not saying there is a link between Gender Dysphoria and CAIS, I am saying that if you consider an XY person to always be a male, it just doesn’t work in some cases. I think there may be a link between the etiology of transgender people and MAIS.

The cited NCBI study on GID on identical twins has qualifiers “possible” and “suggested” as to biological factors affecting the brains of transgenders, plus your phrase “best guess.” That is not saying that the etiology of transgenderism is anywhere near settled, notwithstanding the ardent arguments of transgender posters who come onto this board (I am not referring to you.)

The survey size is too small to say anything conclusive so naturally they added qualifiers just as I did.

You could have been more clear to whom you are directing your objection or outrage when you replied to Hoosier Daddy then.

I posted that conversation mere hours after it occurs; I was in a somewhat agitated mood and it seriously compromised my ability to express my points.

Your pronouncements on this board are not exactly tactful all the time. A lot of it is jarring, in fact. Perhaps that is your aim?

Sometimes I deliberately phrase things in controversial ways to get people to think.

It is indeed a problem. My brother, a correctional officer in the state of California, would sometimes talk in conversation with me of the unique problems in the prison system presented by transgender inmates. Even if a transgender visibly has a bosom from hormone treatment or surgical breast augmentation, the presence of male sexual organs is the criterion in sending a trans inmate to a male prison. You can figure the additional complications in the system this presents. No need to go into the many scenarios and institution of special rules as a result of the mix of transgenders in the male prison population.

Abuse is inexcusable. Unfortunately, in the streets, and in and outside prison, one meets all sorts of people, the deranged, the bad and incompetent as well included among good, decent and well meaning folk. Police officers and medical professionals not exempted.

Let me put it this way, it is so bad that transwomen get put in involuntary protective custody, try to get into voluntary protective custody or if those fail deliberately try to get place in SHU to serve out their sentence. When people want to be in SHU, there are serious issues. It wouldn’t be that hard to adjust it so their needs are met, simply put them in PC and two to a room.

Joie, the following is not meant to put down any one you may know personally who is transgender of color.

The fact is many transgenders are in the sex trade. Further, while sex workers in general are more likely to be HIV-positive than those who do not engage in sex work, transgender female sex workers are at four times greater risk for contracting HIV than other female sex workers. This CDC report provides a snapshot of the problem of sexually active transgenders, especially those of the African American race.

Do you know why so many are in the sex trade? It is pretty hard to get a regular job when your papers don’t match with how you look and then there is job discrimination even if your papers match if they find out.

Any transgender possessing wits and wherewithal, not wanting to be part of the sex trade, needs to avoid walking the streets, especially in a bad part of town, dressing like a prostitute and wearing exaggeratedly sexy dress and make up. This is just common sense. The same rule and conduct apply to women. Nobody asks to be accosted or raped, and it is true any resulting crime remains with the perpetrator not the victim. I had this type of post exchange with a transgender poster. In substance what I posted then is that there are decisions and behavior by transgenders to ward off possible ugly responses from the bad elements of society.

This police and general public harassment happens even when they do not do any of the things list except the walking in a bad part of town as often given economic marginalization they live in said neighborhoods and lack vehicles.

Btw, those familiar with your posts know you have excellent command of language and grammar and that your last post is not representative of your submissions.

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My command of language and grammar is merely good as I make far to many grammatical errors for it to be considered excellent.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

…

Sometimes I deliberately phrase things in controversial ways to get people to think.

That you do. How about speaking or writing more directly so you are understood better. Less cynicism and bitterness would help, too.

Let me put it this way, it is so bad that transwomen get put in involuntary protective custody, try to get into voluntary protective custody or if those fail deliberately try to get place in SHU to serve out their sentence. When people want to be in SHU, there are serious issues. It wouldn’t be that hard to adjust it so their needs are met, simply put them in PC and two to a room.

You see, I understand your acronyms only because I have a brother working in the prison system. Otherwise, I would not. If you wish to facilitate understanding by others, you could write the full phrase as a courtesy gesture, and not come across as too insular and aloof sounding.

Do you know why so many are in the sex trade? It is pretty hard to get a regular job when your papers don’t match with how you look and then there is job discrimination even if your papers match if they find out.

This police and general public harassment happens even when they do not do any of the things list except the walking in a bad part of town as often given economic marginalization they live in said neighborhoods and lack vehicles.

No, the transgenders also do not need to dress and do the make up the way they do when they are out. If they are males compelled to present as females to the world, they can tone the dress and make up down. You know what I mean.

My command of language and grammar is merely good as I make far to many grammatical errors for it to be considered excellent.

I think your command is excellent, you say merely good. C’mon, Joie, there is nothing wrong with accepting praise. Relax, you tend to over analyze and push yourself too hard.
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[Joie_de_Vivre]

That you do. How about speaking or writing more directly so you are understood better. Less cynicism and bitterness would help, too.

Could you please provide an example of how I can write more directly without missing nuances?

You see, I understand your acronyms only because I have a brother working in the prison system. Otherwise, I would not. If you wish to facilitate understanding by others, you could write the full phrase as a courtesy gesture, and not come across as too insular and aloof sounding.

For those who do not know of the terms SHU is short for Special Housing Unit, it is solitary confinement. It has entered popular usage via the show Orange is the New Black.

No, the transgenders also do not need to dress and do the make up the way they do when they are out. If they are males compelled to present as females to the world, they can tone the dress and make up down. You know what I mean.

Transgender is an adjective, not a noun.

Actually the younger transwomen I know get rather annoyed by the ones who transition in their fifties and wear clothing that a teenage girl would like to wear. Basically the transwomen transitioning middle age or older desire to experience the girl/womanhood they missed out on. The makeup issue is the result of not enough practice, makeup is an art that must be learned and late transitioning transwomen have it even harder as they have no mother to teach them how to go about it.

The reason you only notice the ones who dress absurdly is because the others dress appropriately and simply blend in.

I think your command is excellent, you say merely good. C’mon, Joie, there is nothing wrong with accepting praise. Relax, you tend to over analyze and push yourself too hard.
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I still have a long way to go to obtain excellence although this may be the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Could you please provide an example of how I can write more directly without missing nuances?

You can go back to your post #15. If you were to re-phrase it so the other party understands you more, how would you put down your thoughts, in retrospect? To explain how I would do it would take more than can be rendered as a side discussion on this thread.

For those who do not know of the terms SHU is short for Special Housing Unit, it is solitary confinement. It has entered popular usage via the show Orange is the New Black.

Sorry, I don’t watch that show, “the best lesbian series ever” according to the Advocate. It is not surprising that people with all sorts of POV (point of view) and interest come onto this board.

[QUOTETransgender is an adjective, not a noun.
[/QUOTE]

That’s a good reminder that the word "transgender"is an adjective, a description to a noun. Sex remains as male or female, man or woman, only, which are terms both noun and adjective. I imagine you would not agree that writer Dale O’Leary has an elucidating point in this article Don’t Say Gender When You Mean Sex .

Actually the younger transwomen I know get rather annoyed by the ones who transition in their fifties and wear clothing that a teenage girl would like to wear. Basically the transwomen transitioning middle age or older desire to experience the girl/womanhood they missed out on. The makeup issue is the result of not enough practice, makeup is an art that must be learned and late transitioning transwomen have it even harder as they have no mother to teach them how to go about it.

The reason you only notice the ones who dress absurdly is because the others dress appropriately and simply blend in.

It is not just absurd dressing or an issue of exaggerated make up and dress. Or walking in a bad part of town dressed and made up as such. Even in otherwise safe places to be, transgender individuals looking for a romantic or sexual partner (as other young people are) put their well being at risk in the not unknown or unheard of scenario when the point of physical intimacy is reached. Not every man reacts rationally at the realization that the woman he is out with is an MtF transgender person, having the same sexual organ as he does. Or, discovering that his “love” interest is a postoperative MtF person, for that matter. You can say, well, honesty between two people attracted to each other should prevent an ugly turn of events. Well and good if that happens but encounters of the former kind are known to happen with bad endings. Not every man is equipped to rise above the passion of the moment. Violence and abuse are not excused; however, regardless that an assault or worse is defended or justified as gay panic on the part of the aggressor, a transgender person shares the blame when an ugly and arguably predictable outcome ensues.

I still have a long way to go to obtain excellence although this may be the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Are you a Psych major?

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

You can go back to your post #15. If you were to re-phrase it so the other party understands you more, how would you put down your thoughts, in retrospect? To explain how I would do it would take more than can be rendered as a side discussion on this thread.

I am not quite sure how to better write it.

Sorry, I don’t watch that show, “the best lesbian series ever” according to the Advocate. It is not surprising that people with all sorts of POV (point of view) and interest come onto this board.

The Advocate has no idea what it is talking about, The L Word is the best lesbian series ever. Frankly Orange is the New Black isn’t lesbian it is simply set inside a women’s prison which means that a substantial amount of romantic relationships are women with women.

Transgender is an adjective, not a noun.

sigh She makes several major errors.

1. The grammatical gender is highly arbitrary; in Latin all trees are feminine, even the males ones
2. She does not appear to understand what is meant by patriarchy.
3. The transwomen I know do not labor under the idea that SRS changes their sex. It also does not meet the definition of mutilation
4. “Surgical Sex” by Dr. Paul McHugh is still debunked
5. Much of her definitions are getting into Newspeak territory
6. Transgender people use the terms Assigned Male at Birth and Assigned Female at birth which is sex not gender
7. She clear has no idea what transgender people want since she lumped them with radical feminists who are diametrically opposed to transwomen.
8. Don’t say Raiders fan when referring to a person, rather use person with Raiders attraction to make it clear that this is a person with a problem, not a different class of human beings
9. The debunked idea of insecure attachment is terrible, for girls the claims are so all over the place that effectively being raise by humans cause girls to become lesbians.

It is not just absurd dressing or an issue of exaggerated make up and dress. Or walking in a bad part of town dressed and made up as such. Even in otherwise safe places to be, transgender individuals looking for a romantic or sexual partner (as other young people are) put their well being at risk in the not unknown or unheard of scenario when the point of physical intimacy is reached. Not every man reacts rationally at the realization that the woman he is out with is an MtF transgender person, having the same sexual organ as he does. Or, discovering that his “love” interest is a postoperative MtF person, for that matter. You can say, well, honesty between two people attracted to each other should prevent an ugly turn of events. Well and good if that happens but encounters of the former kind are known to happen with bad endings. Not every man is equipped to rise above the passion of the moment. Violence and abuse are not excused; however, regardless that an assault or worse is defended or justified as gay panic on the part of the aggressor, a transgender person shares the blame when an ugly and arguably predictable outcome ensues.

The transwomen I know all know that you have to discuss it well before sex, the question is merely when.

Are you a Psych major?

Absolutely not; no offense to any psych majors who might be reading this.