Sexual orientation laws trump religious freedom, California Supreme Court says (CNA)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic_Press
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
But in some cases access should not matter. For example, no law should force anyone to commit murder. Period. In some cases, practicing civil disobience or even open rebellion is preferable to following the law. Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s. Morality is God’s domain.
In civil law, access does matter. If there is no other facility within reasonable access of the plaintiff to receive equal services, the court will most likely rule in favor of said plaintiff in a case such as this. I think the decision might have been different in this case if the plaintiff’s insurance covered another clinic.
 
They don’t have to provide it-they can choose not to enter into a practice where they would have to. This isn’t Communist China, we don’t force people into career choices.

If your faith is that important to you, wouldn’t you be careful about your choice of employment so that you are not put in a position of having to violate it?

It is the individuals responsibility to make choices that do not violate his/her faith.
You could be put into a position of violating your faith in almost any job whatsoever.

A printer could be forced to print objectionable material. a web developer could be forced to build objectionable web sites, etc. etc.

So basically you are saying we should remove ourselves from the job market to avoid conflicts of faith?

No, the law protects our faith. We have a right to exercise it even in the practice of our jobs.
 
You could be put into a position of violating your faith in almost any job whatsoever.

A printer could be forced to print objectionable material. a web developer could be forced to build objectionable web sites, etc. etc.

So basically you are saying we should remove ourselves from the job market to avoid conflicts of faith?

No, the law protects our faith. We have a right to exercise it even in the practice of our jobs.
I believe that we are responsible for using reasonable methods to make sure that we are not accepting a job which will lead us to violate our values. Obviously, there are individual situations that can come up, but if we do our due diligence we should be able to avoid most conflicts.
 
Medicine changes every day. No one knows what types of things will become available. Why must we force people to act immorally?
Exactly,

Look at all those poor people who specialized in pharmacy, thinking it was an honorable and moral profession and now find themselved forced to dispense chemical abortion drugs.
 
I believe that we are responsible for using reasonable methods to make sure that we are not accepting a job which will lead us to violate our values. Obviously, there are individual situations that can come up, but if we do our due diligence we should be able to avoid most conflicts.
Not if a group of Judges decides that they can force us to act contrary to our faith.

The Constitution protects out free practice of religion, we don’t have to avoid employment in order to avoid conflicts our faith.
 
I think pro life OBGYN’s should be taught the procedure, but they should not be mandated to provide it. An OBGYN could establish a practice that did not perform abortions, as long as women who did not share their fbeliefs had access to a practice or clinic that did and still not violate the law.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, in your view, a pro-life OB/GYN serving a remote area as the only OB/GYN should be required to perform abortions!?!

And as for teaching the procedure, there are hospitals in NY that claimed that “teaching the procedure” required the residents to perform abortions under supervision. How can that ever be morally (or constitutionally) justified?
 
Exactly,

Look at all those poor people who specialized in pharmacy, thinking it was an honorable and moral profession and now find themselved forced to dispense chemical abortion drugs.
Exactly.
 
They don’t have to provide it-they can choose not to enter into a practice where they would have to. This isn’t Communist China, we don’t force people into career choices.

If your faith is that important to you, wouldn’t you be careful about your choice of employment so that you are not put in a position of having to violate it?

It is the individuals responsibility to make choices that do not violate his/her faith.
No, their faith is protected by the Constitution, it is the responsibility of the government, congress, and judiciary to protect those rights.
 
No, their faith is protected by the Constitution, it is the responsibility of the government, congress, and judiciary to protect those rights.
Not if it endangers the safety or welfare of others. Medical professionals are under a unique burden, which they are made well aware of in their ethics courses.
 
where in this case is someone’s safety or welfare jeopardized?
 
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

So, in your view, a pro-life OB/GYN serving a remote area as the only OB/GYN should be required to perform abortions!?!

And as for teaching the procedure, there are hospitals in NY that claimed that “teaching the procedure” required the residents to perform abortions under supervision. How can that ever be morally (or constitutionally) justified?
Not in my view, the view of civil law. Equal access means equal access, whether it’s something we find morally objectionable or not.

Again, easily avoided by the individual medical professional. Don’t set up shop in Nowheresville and you won’t be forced to do a procedure you find objectionable.

I remember the NY case, I’ll have to look it up because I can’t remember how the courts ruled on it.
 
Not in my view, the view of civil law. Equal access means equal access, whether it’s something we find morally objectionable or not.
No that is not correct, that is simply the opinion of a few jurisdictions, not the Constitution. Civil law has many layers but all are subject to the Bill of Rights.

You are claiming that this is not your view but you argue their case for them, ignore the Constitutional issue, and also think that by following civil law you can somehow ignore the moral responsibilities of your faith. I don’t understand at all where you are coming from.
Again, easily avoided by the individual medical professional. Don’t set up shop in Nowheresville and you won’t be forced to do a procedure you find objectionable.
I remember the NY case, I’ll have to look it up because I can’t remember how the courts ruled on it.
Incorrect, we have a right to set up shop wherever we want and still enjoy our religious freedoms
 
Not in my view, the view of civil law. Equal access means equal access, whether it’s something we find morally objectionable or not.

Again, easily avoided by the individual medical professional. Don’t set up shop in Nowheresville and you won’t be forced to do a procedure you find objectionable.

I remember the NY case, I’ll have to look it up because I can’t remember how the courts ruled on it.
You are misinterpreting equal access. Equal access means that my hypothical OB/GYN in the boondocks would have to provide the same services to all of his/her patients, not that he would have to add services beyond what he would ordinarily provide just because another doctor somewhere else provides those services.

Equal access is also much more narrowly defined when it comes to elective procedures. A plastic surgeon, for example, can be very picky about who they take as patients. An ER doc cannot. OB/GYNs are allowed to restrict their practice to certain sub-specialties. I have had GYNs for example that didn’t do OB work and one who would not do OB work for anyone over 35.

Even with life-saving procedures, doctors aren’t forced to do other work beyond their standard practice. A surgeon in a rural hospital couldn’t be required, for example to do an organ transplant even though that is clearly within the surgical specialty.

The lesbian case is “possibly” an equal access case since the doctor evidently provided this service to others but the abortion example isn’t. As much as I disagree with this ruling, the fact is that it isn’t the procedure the doctor had an issue with, it was the patient. I still think this was a very bad decision since the couple had access to other clinics that would perform the procedure without objection.
 
I’m not the one ignoring the Constituion. I’m just not twisting it to fit the tenets of my faith. The Constitution is for ALL Americans, not just the Catholic ones.
 
The lesbian case is “possibly” an equal access case since the doctor evidently provided this service to others but the abortion example isn’t. As much as I disagree with this ruling, the fact is that it isn’t the procedure the doctor had an issue with, it was the patient.
But you just mentioned that there were OBs that did not do work for those over the age of 35, that is also an issue with the patent not the procedure
 
I believe that we are responsible for using reasonable methods to make sure that we are not accepting a job which will lead us to violate our values. Obviously, there are individual situations that can come up, but if we do our due diligence we should be able to avoid most conflicts.
The problem with this is that, if we take this to it’s end, it means that we must forfeit certain professions to those who have no moral convictions. I can’t see how this could do anything besides even more deeply entrenching into law and society those things that are opposed to the Gospel.
 
I’m not the one ignoring the Constituion. I’m just not twisting it to fit the tenets of my faith. The Constitution is for ALL Americans, not just the Catholic ones.
How is exercising religious freedom twisting it to one’s tenets of faith? The Constitution directly says that there shall be no prohibition of the free practice of religion.

There is nothing in it protecting the rights of homosexuals to have fertility treatment against the will the doctor. In fact there is no protection of homosexuality at all. Even if a state passes a law protecting homosexuals, it can not interfere with the rights of people practicing their religion, the Constitution trumps state law.
 
How is exercising religious freedom twisting it to one’s tenets of faith? The Constitution directly says that there shall be no prohibition of the free practice of religion.

There is nothing in it protecting the rights of homosexuals to have fertility treatment against the will the doctor. In fact there is no protection of homosexuality at all.
If the state legislates that a MDs religious beliefs allow them to not treat homosexuals-something that only some religions believe is a sin- then that would be a de facto establishment of a particular religious view.

Obviously this is only one interpretation and I should have been clearer on that. As we have seen, judges and legal scholars interpret the Constitution very differently in different circumstances. A judge up for re-election in a very right wing Christian area would likely have made a very different decision in this case…:rolleyes:
 
But you just mentioned that there were OBs that did not do work for those over the age of 35, that is also an issue with the patent not the procedure
That’s why I said “possibly” since equal access usually allows doctors to place some limits on who they treat. My guess is that since there is an economic hardship to the doctor involved (higher malpractice insurance) they have a stronger case. I know that was the case with the GYN who didn’t do OB. She couldn’t afford it.
 
I say let the market solve the problem. There can be practices that will wield the turkey baster and those that won’t, and let them attract simpatico clients. Not everyone has to be forced into the same mold. Let freedom ring.🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top