Sexual sin - where is the line?

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langlob

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I am aware that the Church teaches lust is a mortal sin and entertaining sexual fantasies, masturbation, etc. all falls under that category. However, is there a line? Is thinking about sex a sin? Sex is a natural part of life, and it is natural to desire it. Is there anything wrong with wilfully arousing yourself with thoughts about sex? What if the thoughts are about sex with one’s future hypothetical spouse? Is it wrong to anticipate marital relations in this way (i.e. mentally)?

It’s just that as a young male, I find thoughts about sex to be a natural part of life that’s difficult to escape from. So long as these thoughts don’t involve masturbation or lust for another person, is there anything wrong with them? I mean, isn’t it unreasonable to expect a person to go through life never thinking about sex until he/she gets married? Does the Church have a teaching on this matter? Thank-you. 🙂
 
Sexual thoughts are bound to enter a person’s mind with or without prompting. Our concupiscence due to the fall of Adam and Eve has insured that we do not have full and perfect control of our faculties. Our imaginations which are a powerful gift from God are also influenced by the fall. The thoughts will indeed enter our minds.

The point of sin depends upon what we do with the thoughts that enter our minds. Do we deliberately entertain the thoughts and let the thoughts entertain us, or do we recognize the great gift of sexuality as given to us by God, and put the thoughts out of our minds. Self discipline in this area of life is necessary because sex, when not viewed properly, turns love to lust and makes another person a mere object for our pleasure.

Fantasies represent a form of adultery. Jesus said, “But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” Think about this…it applies to us even if we are thinking about our betrothed. She is not yet the man’s wife. Not only that but in doing this a man makes his future wife a sex object for himself before marriage and is likely to view her in a similar fashion after they are married. These things are becoming more and more difficult for both men and women because we are in a sex saturated society.

I would suggest getting material from John Paul II’s Theology of the Body. Christopher West has written a book based on JP II’s work called The Good News on Sex and Marriage. Reading this book will be helpful.
 
One rule of thumb that I have heard is:

“Would you do it if Jesus was standing in front of you watching?”
 
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Pax:
Fantasies represent a form of adultery. Jesus said, “But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”

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well what about fantasies about your actual spouse? He says “adultery”, not fornication, implying the sin as thoughts about a woman who is not your wife. But as far as I can tell, the Catholic Church still regards any sexual thoughts as objectifying and sinful no matter who they involve.
 
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volzcpa:
One rule of thumb that I have heard is:

“Would you do it if Jesus was standing in front of you watching?”
I get your point but if Jesus was physically standing in the room where I could see him I would not have sexual relations with my hubby and that’s not sinful.
 
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cynic:
well what about fantasies about your actual spouse? He says “adultery”, not fornication, implying the sin as thoughts about a woman who is not your wife. But as far as I can tell, the Catholic Church still regards any sexual thoughts as objectifying and sinful no matter who they involve.
Fantasizing about my husband of 20 years is a grave sin??? That sounds a bit off base to me.
 
However, is there a line? Is thinking about sex a sin? Sex is a natural part of life, and it is natural to desire it. Is there anything wrong with wilfully arousing yourself with thoughts about sex? What if the thoughts are about sex with one’s future hypothetical spouse? Is it wrong to anticipate marital relations in this way (i.e. mentally)?
Yes, all of these fall under the category of engaging in sexual fantasy. These thoughts result from lust, not from a chaste heart. Chastity is our sexual desire in its original design.

However, if you are thinking about sex in objective sense like “What is the meaning of sex?” “Why did God create sex?” “Is sex good or bad?” “What does the virtue chastity require of me in marriage?” are all fine thoughts and I would encourage you to explore them.
It’s just that as a young male, I find thoughts about sex to be a natural part of life that’s difficult to escape from. So long as these thoughts don’t involve masturbation or lust for another person, is there anything wrong with them?
Don’t deceive yourself. All sexual daydreams are motivated by lust. I am specifically disturbed that you specify “lust for another person.” Lust is not sexual attraction to another person. It is a perversion of our sexuality and aims at separating the aims of our sexual urges. If you teach yourself to teach yourself that it is ok to arouse yourself without giving yourself completely to your spouse, you are preparing yourself to take on a mentality in which your spouse will likely become a means to an end.

Masturbation and such daydreams are wrong primarily because there’s no spouse there to give yourself to. The whole thing becomes about self-gratification which is completely a distorted view of the sexual act. If you engage in the sexual act with the goal being self-gratification, you are lusting and sinning regardless that you are married.
I mean, isn’t it unreasonable to expect a person to go through life never thinking about sex until he/she gets married? Does the Church have a teaching on this matter? Thank-you. 🙂
God calls us to do things that we are not capable of doing left to our own resources. If Christ had not come to this earth, suffered and died on the Cross in reparation for our sins, all of humanity would have no hope of reaching Heaven. Part of being Catholic means recognizing our complete helplessness and dependance on God. It means recognizing that we are born not in the original state God created in the beginning, but with a fallen nature, a nature that leads us to our downfall.

The good news, the gospel (gospel means good news), is that our nature can be redeemed. I think its in one of St. Pauls Encyclicals that says that it is the law that condemns and grace that saves us. It is grace that writes the law on our hearts and makes us purified…transforms us into saints.

So, no, if left to your own devices, your own logical thinking. If left to merely seeking to control your own will, you’d only find yourself tempted to hate your entire sexual drive and would likely find that the only way you could control it would be to surpress it. You wouldn’t be riding yourself of lust, you’d merely be hidding your lust from the world and denying the goodness of your sexuality at the same time. Moreover, you’d probably feel guilty with every sexual act with your spouse because you would be awakened to the fact that your heart is not chaste.

This is why we have the sacraments and most of all have the sacrament of reconcilation. There is nothing wrong with going week after week confessing the same sin that we are enslaved to. Think about it. There are only about 7 or 10 categories of sin an individual could commit. We always commit the same sins more than once. We must grow in humility, and we must understand the reconcilation is more than receiving “Well ok, you did a bad thing, but I forgive you so now when you die you’ll go to Heaven because I don’t hate you anymore.”

That is not God’s nature at all. He is just and merciful. His work is over, but within us it is a development. Not only do we receive forgiveness in the sacrament, but we receive the graces necessary to overcome the sin.
 
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maryj:
Fantasizing about my husband of 20 years is a grave sin??? That sounds a bit off base to me.
Yes it is. You’re not giving yourself to your husband when you are fantasizing about him. You are seeking self-gratification. Even when you participate in the marital act, you should not be engaging in it for self-gratification. You can enjoy it, but the key is to not use your husband either physically or in your mind (his image in that case) as a means to an end. Fantasizing about it will create in your heart more of a lust that would make it difficult for you to engage in the act without the presense of lust in your heart.
 
you have a rather extreme view. Having a sexuality is ok, having desires for your husband/wife is ok. as long as you don’t think about it. Priceless, but I understand that that is probably the Catholic position on it.
 
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the-3rd-parent:
Yes it is. You’re not giving yourself to your husband when you are fantasizing about him. You are seeking self-gratification. Even when you participate in the marital act, you should not be engaging in it for self-gratification. You can enjoy it, but the key is to not use your husband either physically or in your mind (his image in that case) as a means to an end. Fantasizing about it will create in your heart more of a lust that would make it difficult for you to engage in the act without the presense of lust in your heart.
I may be off base here, but this seems like picking fly poop out of pepper. Not engaging in sex for self gratification seems like not taking a drink of water to quench your thirst. I somewhat understand your point, but I think sometimes we set the bar a little high for beginners. Not fantasizing is probably a sufficient answer. This husband/wife stuff gets just a little convoluted.
 
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the-3rd-parent:
Yes it is. You’re not giving yourself to your husband when you are fantasizing about him. You are seeking self-gratification. Even when you participate in the marital act, you should not be engaging in it for self-gratification. You can enjoy it, but the key is to not use your husband either physically or in your mind (his image in that case) as a means to an end. Fantasizing about it will create in your heart more of a lust that would make it difficult for you to engage in the act without the presense of lust in your heart.
Oh I couldn’t disagree more on some of these statements. How would it be that you know what I’m fantisizing about. could it be about something for him? That IMO is giving not taking. The conjugal act is pleasurable, it was made that way!! Have you ever studied NFP? Basically a woman HAS TO think about the conjugal act every day, EVERYDAY of the month, not just somedays but everyday it is part of her life. Is that Lustful ? . My husband only need to push the vacuum through the house in his Levis somedays, and if he ends up doing the dishes that night… When you’ve been married for over 20 years, hopefully, if you are blessed, you will know what giving is! And one last thing, if you are speaking of sexual satisfaction for a woman, (a means to an end) with her HUSBAND, that we (as women) "can"enjoy but not (in your words) use our husband physically or in our minds, you know very little about the way the marital embrace is shared between husband and wife. That’s like saying…I’m starving let’s go get a big pizza, but don’t think about it before it’s delivered to the table, and please don’t use your hands to eat it, even though it is rightfully yours. Hmmmm… haven’t had dinner yet, gotta go!!!
 
Thinking in sexual terms about one’s spouse is not automatically sinful and the Church does not say that it is. Church teaching on sin in this area boils down to the following: Do I view and use my spouse as a sexual object for my own pleasure? Or do I love my spouse as a person and share the mutuality of intercourse as God intended?

If the idea of not thinking about your spouse with sex in mind is taken too far, then no marital partner would ever initiate conjugal relations. Christopher West’s book does a great deal to shed the light on what the Catholic Church actually teaches about sex and marriage. I highly recommend th book…it in no way discourages sex in marriage, but instead puts it in the beautiful context in which God intended it.
 
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volzcpa:
One rule of thumb that I have heard is:

“Would you do it if Jesus was standing in front of you watching?”
Excuse me, but He is watching! 😃
 
I may be off base here, but this seems like picking fly poop out of pepper. Not engaging in sex for self gratification seems like not taking a drink of water to quench your thirst. I somewhat understand your point, but I think sometimes we set the bar a little high for beginners. Not fantasizing is probably a sufficient answer. This husband/wife stuff gets just a little convoluted.
The bar is very high and I don’t believe it is something we should lower. Rather we need to accept with humility that we all suffer from the vice of lust and that we all need redemption. I wouldn’t say that experiencing lustful feelings during the sexual act with your spouse is not a mortal sin. One has to grow in the virtue of chastity a lot to do that, but we must encourage that virtue to grow. It is true that we are often protected from seeing all our sins because chances are if we did, we’d all fall into despair over them. A person who struggles with mortal sins, needs to deal with their mortal sins, but once they reach the place where confession is something where mortal sins are a rarity, they need to focus on the venial sins and on imperfections.
That IMO is giving not taking.
No, giving is not taking. I think we often reverse the process of love a lot. We try to make sex into a take and submit to being taken from when rather the act should be of giving and accepting the gift. The more active part is in the gift of self. Its a very fine line to walk. The most active part of ourselves should be in the giving, with an attitude of appreciation for the gift received. The pleasure is good, but the lust in our hearts makes us prone to viewing our sexual desires as some sort of need that our spouse is to fill and that we are to fulfill in our spouse. We cannot turn the sexual act into a “You scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours.” It is very likely that the physical behavior will not change much at all as your heart becomes more chaste, but rather it will be your attitude and respect for each other that transforms.

I’m saying this not as a completely chaste individual myself. Every one of us, the married included, has to struggle with lust. I don’t believe that the struggle with it really becomes that much easier for the married than a single person, especially considering that we live in a society with contraceptives and invetro fertilization, pornography and a commercial environment that loves to sell things based on sex.
The conjugal act is pleasurable, it was made that way!!
Yes and that is wonderful. I am not saying at all that it’s wrong to enjoy sex. That would be merely jumping to the opposite extreme which is just as bad.
Have you ever studied NFP? Basically a woman HAS TO think about the conjugal act every day, EVERYDAY of the month, not just somedays but everyday it is part of her life. Is that Lustful ?
Yes, I have studied NFP. But we were talking about sexual fantasies, daydreams, not objectively thinking about it. There’s no reason why charting your fertility signs should lead you into sexual fantasies. Nor should prayerfully considering whether its morally licit for you to abstain from sex during your peek fertility or if your responsibilities require you to abstain.

I’d say that a person could even think about and discuss specific acts without it leading to fantansy or arousal. I’d say the overall thing is that if you’re thinking about sex and its arousing you, then unless that’s going to be a “Hey honey you wanna?”, than the thought needs to stop.

Because the truth of the matter is that if you are by yourself and daydreaming about doing something for your spouse, in that moment you’re not actually giving yourself to your spouse. Just because the focus of the dream is on what you’re doing to him, the purpose of the submitting to the fantansy is your own self gratification, because there is pleasure in hearing a spouse react to something we’ve done, a pleasure in dreaming about his appreciation, and probably for a very lustful heart a pleasure in the idea of controling the other person. Our temptation to such sexual thoughts should only lead to inciation of the act and if we cannot in good conscious engage in the act than sexual expression physically or mentally has no place.
 
I wouldn’t say that experiencing lustful feelings during the sexual act with your spouse is not a mortal sin.
Correction: I edited this without realizing that I said wouldn’t instead of would.

What I mean is that experience lustful feelings during the sexual act with your spouse is probably not a mortal sin.

Gosh, maybe I should stop going over these posts and editing them. I end up restating the same things over again thinking I hadn’t made that point yet.
 
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the-3rd-parent:
Yes it is. You’re not giving yourself to your husband when you are fantasizing about him. You are seeking self-gratification. Even when you participate in the marital act, you should not be engaging in it for self-gratification. You can enjoy it, but the key is to not use your husband either physically or in your mind (his image in that case) as a means to an end. Fantasizing about it will create in your heart more of a lust that would make it difficult for you to engage in the act without the presense of lust in your heart.
why is seeking self gratification automatically a sin? esp if that gratification is got from thougts about giving, making love etc? . If I remember a funny conversation with my wife for my own amusement does that mean I am using her as a means to an end? yes, so what, why are those ‘ends’ sinful. What about imagining just being in their company, here you are also using their image for self gratification. so what?
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the-3rd-parent:
Because the truth of the matter is that if you are by yourself and daydreaming about doing something for your spouse, in that moment you’re not actually giving yourself to your spouse. Just because the focus of the dream is on what you’re doing to him, the purpose of the submitting to the fantansy is your own self gratification, because there is pleasure in hearing a spouse react to something we’ve done, a pleasure in dreaming about his appreciation .
what is wrong with that exactly. I could understand if it were about pornographically degrading them etc…

Perhaps we shouldn’t imagine eating. Perhaps we shouldn’t imagine holding hands with them, if your not in a position to do that either.
 
…perhaps we shouldn’t imagine walking on the beach with your spouse, cause that would be using an image of them as an object for our own satisfaction…

…perhaps we should’s imagine a conversation with husband/wife, cause that would be taking pleasure in their imagined responses, controlling their image in our minds. There’s no end to this type of ‘standard’.
 
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maryj:
The conjugal act is pleasurable, it was made that way!! Have you ever studied NFP? Basically a woman HAS TO think about the conjugal act every day, EVERYDAY of the month, not just somedays but everyday it is part of her life. Is that Lustful ? . My husband only need to push the vacuum through the house in his Levis somedays, and if he ends up doing the dishes that night… When you’ve been married for over 20 years, hopefully, if you are blessed, you will know what giving is!
I don’t want to get involved with most of what’s going on here but I did want to clarify this. Please be cautious with references to NFP in this manner. This is not representative of the nature of NFP. It can lead to even more confusion about the Truth of NFP.

Charting is information. I charted before I was married to help improve my health. Charting is not thinking about the marital act every day. NFP is about being aware of your own body and fertility and how your sexual drives fit into God’s plan for children. Breast-feeding is also part of NFP.

I can tell by the rest of what you are saying that this reference was to say, “If a married woman is charting and thinks about the marital act it is not lustful thoughts.” This analogy can be very easily confused by those who are already confused about NFP. I agree with your point. I just want to prevent those who are already confused from becoming more confused.

[End of involvement.]
 
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volzcpa:
One rule of thumb that I have heard is:

“Would you do it if Jesus was standing in front of you watching?”
If Jesus were physically standing in front of me, I think that would immediately take my mind off of whatever I had been previously thinking about and put it on :bowdown: ing.

DaveBj
 
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langlob:
I am aware that the Church teaches lust is a mortal sin and entertaining sexual fantasies, masturbation, etc. all falls under that category. However, is there a line?
You are asking the wrong question. Trying to define a line and keep yourself just on the “sinless” side is both minimalist and foolish. Would you ask “How much can I sin and still go to Heaven?” “Will Jesus still love me if I give in to temptaion just this once?”

The question you need to ask instead is “Will this bring me closer to God?” If the answer is no, then don’t do it.

When you fight the temptation to think lustful thoughts, you are growing in your likeness to God. When ideas enter your head and you reject them, you are becoming more like God. When you refuse to treat another human being as an object to satisfy your own desires, you are treating them as the person that God created them to be. And that’s all good.

Intentionally arousing yourself is self-gratifying and sinful. That treats your own body as an object instead of as a person, deserving of love and respect, made in the image and likeness of God. No one ever deserves to be treated that way, a stranger, your future wife, even yourself.

For more encouragement, read The Good News About Sex & Marriage by Christopher West and then start in on The Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul II. You can find many guides to help you through his hefty text.
 
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