Sexual sin?

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Evania

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Hi,

I’m trying to understand and learn more about what Our Church teaches on sexuality. I understand that the use of barriers and abortifacients are wrong, and I agree. I also understand that the Church teaches that any act of sex must be completed in intercourse, and I agree.

My question is: If a couple is abstaining for a long length of time for a serious reason, and due to the natural longing one has for unity with their spouse, does engage in the marital embrace, if the wife reaches climax and her husband doesn’t, on purpose, is this a sin?"

Church documents point to the sin of Odon, but in this case there is no spillage of seed, and no contraception.

Thanks for your help in clearing up my confusion.
 
Evania said:
My question is: If a couple is abstaining for a long length of time for a serious reason, and due to the natural longing one has for unity with their spouse, does engage in the marital embrace, if the wife reaches climax and her husband doesn’t, on purpose, is this a sin?"
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Evania, yes it is sinful for the couple if they intentionally engineer their session to have the wife orgasm but exclude the man’s ejaculation as this would not be a procreative completed act of intercourse. While you’re right that there would be no ejaculation outside of the vagina in this case like Onan, their marital embrace is still missing one of the main components…the procreative aspect. This is different from Onanism because no seed is spilled outside the woman’s body, but similar in the sense that it is contraceptive.

As we know, sex is a renewal of the marriage vows in which we give ourselves entirely to our spouses, and to contracept is to withhold and hold back something of ourselves from our spouses.
 
Morning Evania,
The title of your post caught my eye immediately. You see, I, a 75 year old male, who just lost his wife of 50 years, is caught in this same sexual dilemma. After 54 years of dating, and being married to the same woman, and, working incessantly to learn the female way of thinking, so that I could completely please, and satisfy her, I am now left with nothing more than memories, but, no sex.
It’s awful hard to just stop. Stop doing, stop thinking, stop everything sexual suddenly like a spouses death will cause. Stop even looking at a woman’s body, even fully dressed, but in tight fitting clothes. Stop looking at pictures like the one you have posted.
For a person who all his life has been drawn to the female body, having to “put on blinders”, and try to go through the rest of your life “celibate” is one hell of a challenge.
And, the devil isn’t helping one bit. when we retired, my wife and I got caught up in other things, and after having risen to the level of Eucharistic Ministers, stopped going to church. When she got sick and went into the hospital, I got scared. I saw to it that she , and I both received the last sacraments. That took her soul away from the devil, and he’s not happy.
 
I understand what cheesehead is saying, but what about a couple who do not have the possibility of conception because the woman has already had her change of life, and the man has had a church approved vasectomy? :confused:
 
gyrene said:
I understand what cheesehead is saying, but what about a couple who do not have the possibility of conception because the woman has already had her change of life, and the man has had a church approved vasectomy? :confused:
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Under what circumstances does the Church approve a vasectomy?
Mary.
 
gyrene said:
a church approved vasectomy? :confused:
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Erm… yeah… there is absolutely no such thing as a church-approved vasectomy… period… The -only- thing a vasectomy accomplishes is the prevention of ejaculation; There are absolutely no circumstances in which a vasectomy would save a man’s life. This sets a vasectomy apart from something like, say, the removal of ovaries or Fallopian tubes, which could be necessary for saving the life of the woman. (due to cancer, or infection, to name two potentials)

So, to reiterate, There are absolutely no circumstances under which a vasectomy would be approved. It can be forgiven, but that’s a far cry from approval.

To the OP:

if it’s on purpose, then that means they made a dedicated decision to reject the nature of the sexual act; therefore it would be gravely sinful. If only one partner was complicit (Wife wouldn’t let him finish, or husband refused to finish) then only that one person would be culpable; but make no mistake that it would be gravely sinful.
 
What if the guy had a skin allergy to semen? Perhaps in that condition the church that would allow it. I don’t know if that ever happens, but just an idea for argument’s sake.
 
FrenzyJen said:
What if the guy had a skin allergy to semen? Perhaps in that condition the church that would allow it. I don’t know if that ever happens, but just an idea for argument’s sake.
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A vasectomy doesn’t prevent the production of semen, so it wouldn’t really accomplish anything on that front >_>
 
FrenzyJen said:
What if the guy had a skin allergy to semen? Perhaps in that condition the church that would allow it. I don’t know if that ever happens, but just an idea for argument’s sake.
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What is a vasectomy? Surgery to a part of the male body, the vas deferens. Any part of the body, including the vas deferens, surely can be susceptible to disease so yes, most likely sometimes surgery can be required to correct or treat it which has the unfortunate side effect of sterility.
 
Hmmm, well what if it was a procedure different from a vasectomy, that removed the vas deferens (I think that’s which part it is) responsible for semen production?

I’m not arguing the original question, I know that it’s “all or nothing” regarding sex. But the idea of a vasectomy never being permissible. I think that there may be certain health reasons perhaps we can’t think of that would make it okay. But it would have to be done for those health reasons and not contraceptive purposes.
 
FrenzyJen said:
Hmmm, well what if it was a procedure different from a vasectomy, that removed the vas deferens (I think that’s which part it is) responsible for semen production?

I’m not arguing the original question, I know that it’s “all or nothing” regarding sex. But the idea of a vasectomy never being permissible. I think that there may be certain health reasons perhaps we can’t think of that would make it okay. But it would have to be done for those health reasons and not contraceptive purposes.
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A vasectomy only prevent ejaculation. Now, removal of the vas deferens (assuming that what we’re thinking that is is actually what it is… not sure) in the event of cancer or something like that would likely be permissible. A vasectomy, though, only server that one purpose, which is purely contraceptive in nature, so it would never be ok.
 
After all the dust settles, let me say this. A qualified monsignor in the Catholic Church told me in Confession that being my wife and I already had four children, and were struggling to support them, that I could indeed have a vasectomy. I believe him more than anybody spouting off on here. :rolleyes:
 
No offense, but can vasectomy be the topic of another thread?

I’m feeling that my thread is being taken over by another topic. This is something that I need guidance and prayers on. I started this thread because I honestly don’t know what to do, and I’m confused.

The last thing I want to do is commit a grave sin. Due to breastfeeding, I’m in a holding pattern. If I get pregnant again, I can lose my life. I don’t want to be sentenced to a sexless marriage. I’m noticing that despite the love we have for one another, we’re starting to bicker. I don’t feel that I’m being selfish when I say that I want to come together with my husband. It’s been a long time, and there’s no end in sight anytime soon. I guess my problem is this: Why is this automatically a mortal sin in every single case? Yes, it is grave matter, but we have six children on earth and three in Heaven. If I could safely have more, I WOULD! For reference, please see my thread on my pain on having to say no to future children, especially when I WANT them. I want to be open to life! If I didn’t have this condition, I would be ecstatic to be pregnant again, and this thread wouldn’t exist because it would be a non- issue. I go for months without anything, fall into the “temptation” of making love to my spouse, and I’m going to hell if I die right then and there?

Sorry if my tone seems angry. I’m not angry, but I’m feeling despair over this topic.
 
Evania said:
No offense, but can vasectomy be the topic of another thread?

I’m feeling that my thread is being taken over by another topic. This is something that I need guidance and prayers on. I started this thread because I honestly don’t know what to do, and I’m confused.

The last thing I want to do is commit a grave sin. Due to breastfeeding, I’m in a holding pattern. If I get pregnant again, I can lose my life. I don’t want to be sentenced to a sexless marriage. I’m noticing that despite the love we have for one another, we’re starting to bicker. I don’t feel that I’m being selfish when I say that I want to come together with my husband. It’s been a long time, and there’s no end in sight anytime soon. I guess my problem is this: Why is this automatically a mortal sin in every single case? Yes, it is grave matter, but we have six children on earth and three in Heaven. If I could safely have more, I WOULD! For reference, please see my thread on my pain on having to say no to future children, especially when I WANT them. I want to be open to life! If I didn’t have this condition, I would be ecstatic to be pregnant again, and this thread wouldn’t exist because it would be a non- issue. I go for months without anything, fall into the “temptation” of making love to my spouse, and I’m going to hell if I die right then and there?

Sorry if my tone seems angry. I’m not angry, but I’m feeling despair over this topic.
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Mortal sin is grave matter plus knowledge (ie you know that something is grave matter) plus consent (you willingly choose to do that thing anyway, and aren’t forced to do it).

You know contraceptive sex is grave matter, so you can do the math as to whether it is mortal sin if you choose to do it anyway.

‘sentenced’ to a sexless marriage? Would you feel the same if your husband were suddenly to become paraplegic and incapable of having sex, that you were living under some sort of sentence? Do you think Mary and Joseph, who had a completely loving and fulfilling but sexless (more properly celibate/chaste) marriage, were merely suffering under some sort of ‘sentence’?

The problem is not that you are not having sex, it is that you are equating sex with love when any prostitute and many happy but celibate couples can attest that the two are very different things. Seek counselling if need be, to help you both find non-sexual but fufilling ways of expressing your love and connectedness.
 
gyrene said:
After all the dust settles, let me say this. A qualified monsignor in the Catholic Church told me in Confession that being my wife and I already had four children, and were struggling to support them, that I could indeed have a vasectomy. I believe him more than anybody spouting off on here. :rolleyes:
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You can space children with NFP, but a vasectomy is still a grave matter and not permissible.

And to Evania the same can be said- you can space children, or avoid them for just reasons, with NFP. There are even phone apps now that can help with fertility awareness which are free.
 
Evania said:
I go for months without anything, fall into the “temptation” of making love to my spouse, and I’m going to hell if I die right then and there?
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It’s not a sin or giving into a temptation to make love to your husband. It does not mean you go to hell. But in the eyes of the church, lovemaking by definition must be unitive and procreative. So if you choose to “give in”, it must be a complete act.

I know this is a hard path. I recommend throwing yourself into several NFP courses and just learning as many ways of it as well as you possibly can. Heck, even go buy a speculum and have your husband check your cervix on a daily basis. Throw that into your observations as well.

It’s not wrong to want to be with your husband, but you can’t just be partially with him.
 
Hi Lily,

I’m trying to avoid mortal sin. That is why I listed the above scenario.

Yes, it feels like a sentence. I would like to come together with my husband. I would prefer to be open to life, but I can’t or I can possibly leave my husband as a single father of six children. It’s a no-win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I’m not confusing love with sex. It’s natural to feel a desire to unify with your spouse. That’s the crux of Pope John Paul’s Theology of the Body, and what separates your spouse from any other man/woman on the planet. If I was confusing sex with love, I would understand your example of a prostitute. I would crave this with any man, but I don’t.

The only answer is to abstain from here on out, and I’m supposed to be happy about it or go to hell.

I am trained to use NFP, and I’m a huge proponent. I have ministered to women in my parish to switch from the Pill to Natural Family Planning. The problem is that my cycles aren’t back yet, and to be safe we cannot take the chance of another pregnancy, so we’re abstaining.
 
FrenzyJen said:
It’s not a sin or giving into a temptation to make love to your husband. It does not mean you go to hell. But in the eyes of the church, lovemaking by definition must be unitive and procreative. So if you choose to “give in”, it must be a complete act.

I know this is a hard path. I recommend throwing yourself into several NFP courses and just learning as many ways of it as well as you possibly can. Heck, even go buy a speculum and have your husband check your cervix on a daily basis. Throw that into your observations as well.

It’s not wrong to want to be with your husband, but you can’t just be partially with him.
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Thank you. It’s a hard teaching.
 
Evania said:
Hi Lily,

I’m trying to avoid mortal sin. That is why I listed the above scenario.

Yes, it feels like a sentence. I would like to come together with my husband. I would prefer to be open to life, but I can’t or I can possibly leave my husband as a single father of six children. It’s a no-win situation. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I’m not confusing love with sex. It’s natural to feel a desire to unify with your spouse. That’s the crux of Pope John Paul’s Theology of the Body, and what separates your spouse from any other man/woman on the planet. If I was confusing sex with love, I would understand your example of a prostitute. I would crave this with any man, but I don’t.

The only answer is to abstain from here on out, and I’m supposed to be happy about it or go to hell.

I am trained to use NFP, and I’m a huge proponent. I have ministered to women in my parish to switch from the Pill to Natural Family Planning. The problem is that my cycles aren’t back yet, and to be safe we cannot take the chance of another pregnancy, so we’re abstaining.
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Hi Evania,

I’m sorry you are going through this. As you know, I’m in a similar situation with NFP. It’s hard, I know. Hang in there!

Don’t think for a moment that you are confusing sex with love. It is natural for you to desire your husband - it would be a problem for your marriage if you didn’t.

How imperative is it that you breastfeed? If you switch to formula, your cycles may return soon and then you can start charting again. Just a thought.
 
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