Sexual Sinfulness then and now

[dominikus28]

I have always been under the impression that modern society is in a state of decay because we are ignoring basic Catholic teaching on sex (and other things as well). But, were people in the middle ages that much better? I mean, now, people don’t care about contraception, cohabitation and premarital sex - most Catholics ignore the Church’s teachings on these. I always thought that I could argue by saying “If people could do it (or not do it) back in the middle ages, why can’t we now?”, but it seems I cannot.

I read that apparently prostitution was widespread (did the prostitutes use contraception? I can’t imagine them getting pregnant for every client) and that very few remained chaste before marriage. Seems like the same story as now. So was it really that bad back then, even when the Church was such an important part of daily life?

Another thing I read, and have been told by a friend is that it was even worse in rural areas. I always thought that it was the city dwelling rich that thought they were special and ignore Church teaching and that the rural people were most religious. I am interested in the values and attitudes of people to these issues throughout history.

 

[Darkbloom]

I think both points can be right.

The concept of some idyllic past is a canard. There has always been sexual immorality, along with a bevy of other sins. The good old days weren’t always good, tomorrow isn’t as bad as it seems, we didn’t start the fire, etc.

But I think there is a distinct difference between doing something you believe to be sinful, as in the Middle Ages, and doing something that is sinful but which is not viewed as such by society, as it is today.

At least in the past people truly believed in the benefits of the sanctity of marriage, and society was the better for it. Today we don’t even have that.

 

[DexUK]

Darkbloom is quite right.

I would only add that in today’s era of mass media encroaching into every area and detail of our lives that we get to hear far more about immorality than people would have done in the past, therefore it might feel like immorality is somehow exceptionally high compared to history.

While it’s entirely probable that immorality feeds off this sort of publicity, I don’t really believe that human nature is somehow inherently more sinful than hundreds of years ago. There are just more of us on the planet and we know far more about each other than we would have done before.

 

[havana1]

I think both points can be right.

The concept of some idyllic past is a canard. There has always been sexual immorality, along with a bevy of other sins. The good old days weren’t always good, tomorrow isn’t as bad as it seems, we didn’t start the fire, etc.

“The Way We Never Were” is a great book about just that idea. I think we’re living in the best times today, in 2010. We’ve never had it so good.

 

[edwest2]

“The Way We Never Were” is a great book about just that idea. I think we’re living in the best times today, in 2010. We’ve never had it so good.

That book title represents the false message spread by Leftists and anarchists who hate what this country stood for in the 1950s and 1960s.

In that time period, we were taught to respect other people, to be modest in word and dress. Neighbors helped neighbors and no money changed hands. If a lady saw a neighbor boy climbing on her apple tree, she would talk to his mother or father. She would tell the boy: “If you want some apples, just ask me. But if you fall and break your arm, it won’t be my fault.” So if he did - break his arm, his parents punished him and no one ran to get the lawyer to sue the neighbor lady.

I’m not saying it was perfect but it was 100% better than what we have now.

There was no cussing and swearing in public. The TV and movies portrayed functional people. I knew they were actors but I could relate to all of them. The radio played songs about love and devotion.

Then, in 1968, knowing the temptation that The Pill would bring, Pope Paul VI had Humanae Vitae published. He warned all who would listen that if his words weren’t heeded there would be an increase in promiscuity.

But manufacturers of The Pill couldn’t afford to lose sales from some Catholic women listening to the Pope. The solution? Destroy the past.

Send in the Hippies. “We’re gonna burn this country down if we have to! Don’t trust anyone over 30!” The Hippies showed people how to ignore their parents, their teachers, priests, nuns and all that had gone before. A Hippie friend told me: “I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady.” Go ahead. Have sex with your girlfriend. Move in together. Catholics regarded it as a big scandal at the time, but the response was: Mind your own business! Leave us alone!

And I heard the following: “You know what the problem is with you Catholics? You’re sexually repressed!” We were dating. We were getting engaged and we were getting married. They had no use for marriage.

By the 1970s, the promised Woodstock Nation did not appear. What did we get? Adult Bookstores selling images of prostitutes. A group of lawyers, judges and members of organized crime decided to make it all legal. Of course, Catholics complained. The response. We’ve got the protection of the First Amendment! And they had lawyers and millions of dollars to fend off any legal action.

Throw in topless bars and strip clubs in the same time period and you have the foundation of everything we’re seeing today. Just add some Swinger magazines with ads from people looking for sex. Freedom? No, slavery to the flesh.

A little later on, the National Organization for Women began yelling: Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression! Women were told that they were the eternal victims of the eternal enemy - men. Men were called ‘male chauvenist pigs,’ NOW said they were against women being treated like sex objects. And they told women to forget about being a wife and mother. Get a career instead.

By the 1980s, No-Fault Divorce had completed its sweep of the country. I opened up the newspaper and saw a lots of ads like this: “No kids? $75 and you’re out. Call 800-DIVORCE.”

Both the TV and movies were becoming more sexualized and dysfunctional. Sue Ellen on Dallas drinking liquor straight from the bottle while driving. Men in movies encouraging their divorced buddy that he’ll find someone “better.”

Then porn on cable.

And what do we have today? The opening song on Family Guy spitting “on those values on which we used to rely.”? One in five people walking around with an STD? This is better?

God bless,
Ed

 

[havana1]

Send in the Hippies. “We’re gonna burn this country down if we have to! Don’t trust anyone over 30!” The Hippies showed people how to ignore their parents, their teachers, priests, nuns and all that had gone before. A Hippie friend told me: “I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady.” Go ahead. Have sex with your girlfriend. Move in together. Catholics regarded it as a big scandal at the time, but the response was: Mind your own business! Leave us alone!

And who raised those hippies? Who were their parents? That’s right- the ones who were raised with “Leave It to Beaver” and teacher-led school prayer (before Eisenhower added “under God” to the pledge). I think it’s ironic, not to mention ageist, how the parents of those hippies still get a free pass. Any consternation for their parents, since some of those hippies weren’t even old enough to drive to Woodstock, let alone buy any Jimi Hendrix records with their allowance money?

The movies portrayed functional people? Oh, really? Like Norman Bates in “Psycho”? Or anything Joan Crawford was in? Or Humphrey Bogart in “The Maltese Falcon”? Bogie played a womanizer in that movie. Or, all the stars chain-smoking in every scene and inspiring millions of Americans (including two of my grandparents) to take up smoking, too, and die of lung cancer? Watch Turner Classic Movies and see how many movies have a “TV-14” rating, then tell me how movies were so much better back then.

 

[dominikus28]

It seems to me as if nothing much has changed since then. Now, there are few ‘religious’ people who believe in everything the Church teaches on sex and stuff. Back in the middle ages, the Church was a part of daily life, and people were more religious (what I mean is that they knew that sin would lead to hell, etc. Not like today where everyone thinks that God is ‘nice’ so he won’t send us to hell or people who just don’t think about it. Today, if you talk about God in public or with friends, then it makes you feel out of place, whereas back in the renaissance and middle ages, talk about God was normal. You could say that God gave you the strength to do something and it would be normal, whereas if you said that today, people would think it’s just an expression).

I am confused and want to understand this. Like, homosexuality in Florentine times was widespread, despite the influence of the Church, did people ignore Church teachings back then too or did they just not think about it and confess later? Based on what I am hearing, corruption, premarital sex, prostitution, homosexuality in the old days was as common as ever, so people becoming less religious didn’t necessarily make them worse people as i would have thought

 

[edwest2]

And who raised those hippies? Who were their parents? That’s right- the ones who were raised with “Leave It to Beaver” and teacher-led school prayer (before Eisenhower added “under God” to the pledge). I think it’s ironic, not to mention ageist, how the parents of those hippies still get a free pass. Any consternation for their parents, since some of those hippies weren’t even old enough to drive to Woodstock, let alone buy any Jimi Hendrix records with their allowance money?

The movies portrayed functional people? Oh, really? Like Norman Bates in “Psycho”? Or anything Joan Crawford was in? Or Humphrey Bogart in “The Maltese Falcon”? Bogie played a womanizer in that movie. Or, all the stars chain-smoking in every scene and inspiring millions of Americans (including two of my grandparents) to take up smoking, too, and die of lung cancer? Watch Turner Classic Movies and see how many movies have a “TV-14” rating, then tell me how movies were so much better back then.

There was a Catholic Legion of Decency. Movies could get a “Condemned” rating. In the 1950s, there was a pledge in the Catholic Church to avoid seeing certain movies. God was mentioned in Robinson Crusoe on Mars. You may not know this but certain movies were censored when they were shown on TV in the 1960s. A man appeared on television who represented the Standards and Practices Department. He told us that they watched everything we watched to make sure it was “suitable for the entire family.” That was a time when Catholics paid attention to such things. What inspired millions of Americans to take up smoking was tobacco companies sending cigarettes for free to troops in the line during World War I.

I was at the corner store when the wife of the owner asked me if I smoked. After I said no, she said, “Don’t start. It’s a dirty habit.” People, even if they fell short, really tried to get on the straight and narrow. When the Hippies showed up, it didn’t matter anymore. “Hey man. If it feels good, do it.”

I was asked by a mother if I could come in and answer a few questions. I was selling newspaper suscriptions at the time. She asked me: “What is wrong with you kids? My son won’t listen to me. He hangs out with the wrong crowd. He takes illegal drugs.”

The Hippies made certain they were visible. The atmosphere at the time allowed their nonsense to be partly believed. We respected people, including the stranger. We knew what our parents expected from us. Our problem was this: We had not been told how to lie and We Had Not Been Taught How To Manipulate People. So, a few people I knew started smoking dope. A few people I knew started living with their girlfriends. When I objected, one guy told me: “Hey. We love each other.”

So gradually, as the counter-culture anarchists insisted on having their way, we were told: “Be free man. You don’t have to listen to anybody, especially your parents. Do whatever you want.”

I didn’t understand why a Head Shop opened in my neighborhood (Head meaning Dope Head). I thought the Jimi Hendrix black light poster was cool but the underground comix were filled with perverted sex stories. And the underground newspapers? Intro to Anarchy 101. Then the media began to fall into lockstep. It morphed from reality to dysfunctionality.

So here is the fruit of it:

Romance and real love turned into ‘just sex.’

I know way too many people with 2 or 3 divorces under their belt.

Most of the problems of modern society revolve around misuses of human sexuality.

The Pill - it offers freedom!

Porn - you have the Freedom to buy it!

Strip Clubs - you have the Freedom to go there. Somehow, the International Conspiracy of Relabelers and Sign Makers got into the act and STRIPPER was changed to the ludicrous “Exotic Dancer,”

The internet - Porn 24/7.

One in 5 people walking around with an STD.

Abortion on demand. What was marketed in 1972 was a “use in case of emergency ONLY” procedure, and “the most difficult decision a woman will ever have to make, but it is between her and her god.” Yeah, right.

Shock Jocks? Nappy headed hoes?

We are really “modern” all right, just like Ancient Rome circa 2010.

God bless,
Ed

 

[PAboy57]

when our USA started removing God things really went down hill.

the only way to fix it is to repent and place God back into daily life. I don’t think we have seen anything yet. Without God we can do nothing.

I’m scared for my grandchildren and I don’t have any yet.

 

[Rascalking]

I think we’re living in the best times today, in 2010. We’ve never had it so good.

Thank GOD someone else feels the way I do.

Everyone should be thankful to be alive in this world right now. And I’m a conservative~I know nothing about the book you mentioned.

People, cheer up. God created such a beautiful world for us-constantly complaining about “the good old days” and moping around is an insult to Him.

 

[edwest2]

Thank GOD someone else feels the way I do.

Everyone should be thankful to be alive in this world right now. And I’m a conservative~I know nothing about the book you mentioned.

People, cheer up. God created such a beautiful world for us-constantly complaining about “the good old days” and moping around is an insult to Him.

There is no constant complaint. The reality is Catholics, and society in general, was more focused on God in the 1950s and 1960s. You couldn’t get porn like today. You couldn’t talk dirty without getting punished by your parents. You couldn’t dress like a streetwalker and you couldn’t dress like a stripper and be a pop star.

It was not perfect. Sure, we had crime but we did not lock our doors at night. We were not under threat from random gunfire. Church and Catholic teaching were a part of our daily lives. But guess what? Dysfunctional people wrote the following on an internet forum I moderate: “WE don’t want to feel guilty or ashamed or sinful ever again.” Got that? No sin. No shame. No guilt. Lady Gaga goes to the Berlin Sex Club. That would never have been tolerated in the 1950s or 1960s. That is what people need to know. We lived out our faith daily and no one yelled about the Nativity at the local City Hall.

God bless,
Ed

 

[havana1]

There is no constant complaint. The reality is Catholics, and society in general, was more focused on God in the 1950s and 1960s.

Was that really the “reality” of it, or are you basing that perception upon what you saw on television and in the movies? The reality for African-American Catholics was they had colored restrooms and had to sit at the back of the bus. The reality for Asian-American Catholics, and many Italian-American Catholics, is that they were forcibly interned against their will. The reality for women is they were forbidden from working. The reality for many children is that child abuse wasn’t reported. I’d hardly call that being more “focused on God.” Like I said, we’ve never had it so good today. There’s no such thing as 'the good old days." That’s a myth.

 

[Captain_America]

havana, I’m not so sure you can say this.

While blacks and minorities were kept down in a number of ways, women were legally free to work outside of the home and many did so. Interestingly enough, the tenor of the times was such that many women sought home life.

To a large and unnoticed extent, I believe one great positive thing women at home did was to establish solid communities and neighborhoods. Nowadays you can drive through communities with not an adult in sight during the day.

I question your assertion about child abuse. It’s been shown time and again that broken homes and single mothers with boyfriends are contexts in which child abuse can readily occur—with the rise of divorce and unwed mothers, as well as dissolved neighborhoods— at least quantitatively it is plausible to believe there is MORE child abuse.

 

[havana1]

I question your assertion about child abuse. It’s been shown time and again that broken homes and single mothers with boyfriends are contexts in which child abuse can readily occur—with the rise of divorce and unwed mothers, as well as dissolved neighborhoods— at least quantitatively it is plausible to believe there is MORE child abuse.

And on what basis do you question my assertion about child abuse? It should be common knowledge that child abuse is cyclical. A mother or father typically abuses a kid because their mother or father abused them, and so on. That’s the way they learned to discipline a kid, and the pattern can go back generations. I know plenty of adults from the “good old days” from two-parent families who were abused as children - June and Ward Cleaver two-parent homes, not broken homes: they’re still in therapy, years later. How do you know there wasn’t MORE child abuse in the “good old days” when those patterns originated? I think, much like someone else on this thread, you’re looking back at the “good old days” through rose-colored glasses. I stand by what I posted.

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

And on what basis do you question my assertion about child abuse? It should be common knowledge that child abuse is cyclical. A mother or father typically abuses a kid because their mother or father abused them, and so on. That’s the way they learned to discipline a kid, and the pattern can go back generations. I know plenty of adults from the “good old days” from two-parent families who were abused as children - June and Ward Cleaver two-parent homes, not broken homes: they’re still in therapy, years later. How do you know there wasn’t MORE child abuse in the “good old days” when those patterns originated? I think, much like someone else on this thread, you’re looking back at the “good old days” through rose-colored glasses. I stand by what I posted.

It should be common knowledge that child abuse is cyclical.

How do you know there wasn’t MORE child abuse in the “good old days” when those patterns originated?

Two Questions,

1)How do you know when the “cyclic” abuse began? Could it have started in the 1800’s? Could it have started in the year 4201 BC? Absolutely. That is a strawman unworthy of attention.
2)How do you know there was MORE child abuse then than now? I was abused and it was never reported. I know of at least 15 people who were abused as children and it was never reported. In what way is that different than today?

The point EdWest was trying to make is that our culture was more focused on family values and on a religiously and centered life than today. When there are shows like Will and Grace, Coupling (UK), Sex in the City, Chance at Love with Tila Tequila, the Jersey Shore, and the Bachelor/Bachelorette, how can you compare those to family friendly shows like Father knows best, leave it to beaver, the and griffith show, even I love lucy was better than any of these modern trashy shows.

In this case I feel that life has begun to imitate art and we are degrading the moral foundation of society to such a degree that our society will eventually go the way of Rome: Debauchery weakening society to the point that we will be overrun by “barbaric” hordes. In fact, I think that has already happened in the netherlands, is happening in France and Germany, and sharia law has been accepted in the UK. Its only a matter of time until the US gets overrun in a similar fashion.

FSC

 

[Rascalking]

The point EdWest was trying to make is that our culture was more focused on family values and on a religiously and centered life than today. When there are shows like Will and Grace, Coupling (UK), Sex in the City, Chance at Love with Tila Tequila, the Jersey Shore, and the Bachelor/Bachelorette, how can you compare those to family friendly shows like Father knows best, leave it to beaver, the and griffith show, even I love lucy was better than any of these modern trashy shows.

I know what your getting at, and I sort of agree with you. I find that stuff to be rubbish, and personally, I don’t watch it.

However, I do watch sports, read books, listen to music, and enjoy being alive. I spend time with friends, smile, go fishing, and other great activities. Life today is so wonderful-we have more leisure time to spend with our friends and families, we live longer, we’re more active-it’s amazing.

There is an irony to this “times where so much better back then” speech. You are aware that “back then” people wouldn’t be able to complain on the internet, right?

 

[FidesSpesCarita]

I know what your getting at, and I sort of agree with you. I find that stuff to be rubbish, and personally, I don’t watch it.

However, I do watch sports, read books, listen to music, and enjoy being alive. I spend time with friends, smile, go fishing, and other great activities. Life today is so wonderful-we have more leisure time to spend with our friends and families, we live longer, we’re more active-it’s amazing.

There is an irony to this “times where so much better back then” speech. You are aware that “back then” people wouldn’t be able to complain on the internet, right?

lol, true true. As much and as often as I bemoan the loss of the “good old days” I still love the times I live in, with all their turmoil and strife. Today is the best day I have ever lived, but tomorrow will be better

FSC

 

[edwest2]

havana, I’m not so sure you can say this.

While blacks and minorities were kept down in a number of ways, women were legally free to work outside of the home and many did so. Interestingly enough, the tenor of the times was such that many women sought home life.

To a large and unnoticed extent, I believe one great positive thing women at home did was to establish solid communities and neighborhoods. Nowadays you can drive through communities with not an adult in sight during the day.

I question your assertion about child abuse. It’s been shown time and again that broken homes and single mothers with boyfriends are contexts in which child abuse can readily occur—with the rise of divorce and unwed mothers, as well as dissolved neighborhoods— at least quantitatively it is plausible to believe there is MORE child abuse.

Here’s the rest of the story. While their husbands were off fighting World War II, women worked in factories. They were welding, riveting, assembling bomb parts and flying completed aircraft to dispersal airfields. When their husbands came home after being shot at and enduring bombs and artillery shells, they wanted to forget the war. They wanted to have kids in a place where nobody was shooting at them. My dad was one of them.

There was a great desire to build and rebuild. That was the start of the Baby Boom generation. My mom worked and paid for the house we lived in.

We are discussing sexual sinfulness. If you want to talk about race or ethnic groups, start another thread.

We did not lock our doors at night. I did not go to bed at night to the sound of random gunfire. It was a scandal if a girl got pregnant and she wasn’t married.

Who better to take care of their own kids than their mother? And by the way, the average number of kids in my neighborhood was two - TWO.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Rascalking]

As much and as often as I bemoan the loss of the “good old days” I still love the times I live in, with all their turmoil and strife. Today is the best day I have ever lived, but tomorrow will be better

FSC

Amen to that my friend!

 

[Captain_America]

And on what basis do you question my assertion about child abuse? It should be common knowledge that child abuse is cyclical. A mother or father typically abuses a kid because their mother or father abused them, and so on. That’s the way they learned to discipline a kid, and the pattern can go back generations. I know plenty of adults from the “good old days” from two-parent families who were abused as children - June and Ward Cleaver two-parent homes, not broken homes: they’re still in therapy, years later. How do you know there wasn’t MORE child abuse in the “good old days” when those patterns originated? I think, much like someone else on this thread, you’re looking back at the “good old days” through rose-colored glasses. I stand by what I posted.

From a purely quantitative point of view, you might want to remember that there were 100 million Americans in 1960, while today there are over 300 million. I don’t think your assertion takes this into consideration. Or the explosion of divorce and its well-recognized consequences.