Sexual Thoughts and Mortal Sins

[Jaypeeto4]

Howdy.
For years, I practiced sexual immorality.
I finally attained with God’s help to repentance a few years ago and will never
do those things again.

But I am deeply concerned about thoughts, whether pleasure and arousal arises from those thoughts. How do I know if I alone instigated the thoughts?
And the body is aroused by the remembrance of, forgive me, an orgasm,
no matter how immoral, so how can we ever be “free” of mortally sinful thoughts.
When I started having the thoughts last night
I both ENJOYED THEM and wanted God’s help to TAKE THEM AWAY
both at the SAME time.

I feel like I did commit a mortal sin, but am not sure, because even though the thoughts and memories “felt good,” in my heart I wanted those thoughts to disappear.
You cannot, in my experience, simply “dismiss” a sexually arousing thought or memory, even a memory of deeds you will never commit again. The body can and does become instantly aroused, even if you don’t want it to and even if you ask Jesus to take the urges and memories away.
So good grief, if it is THIS EASY to commit mortal sin,
then there is no hope for me. They tell you not to be scrupulous, but THEN tell
you to carefully examine your conscience. Good lord, such examinations make me crazy with real and probably imagined guilt. And much of my (at least PAST) guilt is very real, so I don’t know where to draw the line.
I will not receive communion today because of this confusion.
No human being can help being aroused and excited by sexual thoughts.
You can pray to God to make them go away, but you cannot FORCE them to,
because the body itself is aroused by the thoughts and memories.
It feels good and is thus hard to dismiss, so I ask the Lord to take the thoughts away and not let them return, but that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been at least some degree of fantasizing. I don’t WANT the thoughts to come to me, period, yet they sometimes DO and are impossible NOT to fantasize about at least to some degree.
So I’m at my wits end over this.

 

[fbl9]

remeber how this felt… is a thought, which is not sinful on the start. one can choose to continue in this thought expanded it to the next sentence, if at this point you realize you are having sinful thoughts and desire not to continue you have not sinned mortally.
But continueing to dwell on these thoughts leaves one open to mortal sin.
No i disagree; the body isn’t instantly aroused by the mere suggestion of one thought.

 

[charliedrake]

When these evil thoughts come into your head take a nap until they go away.

Sounds crazy but it works.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

No i disagree; the body isn’t instantly aroused by the mere suggestion of one thought.

Dear fbl, that may be YOUR experience, brother,
but it certainly is not mine, not at all.
I am not a virgin, friend, (( I deeply wish I was, and deeply regret having done those bad things all those years )), and if I were, then the mere thought might not quickly arouse my body, but what often happens to me,
is that I will be praying to God specifically for the salvation of the people I sexually sinned with all those years, sincerely praying for their conversion and salvation, and while praying for them, very erotic memories of the acts will come to mind and, even though I don’t WANT that to happen, my body instantly remembers the physical pleasure of the acts, and BINGO, all sinful hell breaks loose. Though the thoughts are wrong,
it is sort of like trying to WILL YOURSELF to DISlike chocolate ice cream, only much more serious. Your body, in that case your tongue, likes the taste of it, period, even if you are now Diabetic and could get sick and die from eating it and therefore don’t want to think about how good it tastes.

 

[fbl9]

No i disagree; the body isn’t instantly aroused by the mere suggestion of one thought.

Dear fbl, that may be YOUR experience, brother,
but it certainly is not mine, not at all.
I am not a virgin, friend, (( I deeply wish I was, and deeply regret having done those bad things all those years )), and if I were, then the mere thought might not quickly arouse my body, but what often happens to me,
is that I will be praying to God specifically for the salvation of the people I sexually sinned with all those years, sincerely praying for their conversion and salvation, and while praying for them, very erotic memories of the acts will come to mind and, even though I don’t WANT that to happen, my body instantly remembers the physical pleasure of the acts, and BINGO, all sinful hell breaks loose. Though the thoughts are wrong,
.

knowing that my sins condenmed these persons caused me great sorrow.That is what kept these thoughts from being arousing to me.
Perhaps you are being too specific in your prayers and this is the “trigger”
a personal prayer" Lord i give thee these memeories, to pruify in the fire of thine mercy."

 

[JRKH]

What you are dealing with now is what is referred to as “Affection for sin”.
You have determined to beat your sinful nature and draw close to God.
You have achieved a measure of success by eliminating the sinful acts.
Now you are faced with the next challenge. The elimination of the “affection for sin”.

This can be much more tricky because there are things that may or may not be sinful thoughts depending on specific contexts, duration, how they might tempt one etc. As a result the issue of what is sinful and how grave it is can become very difficult to ascertain.
The mere fact that you are a) Committed to moving closer to God and b) Willing to ask these questions and c) Asking God to remove these thoughts even as you are enjoying them, tells me that you are not in Mortal sin at present.
You are still pretty near the edge, but that is the place where most of us start from. Keep turned toward God who is your goal and your strength.

To work through these matters of overcoming affection for sin will likely require the help of a good confessor or other spiritual director/councilor and some considerable time.

I will also suggest the book in my signature as definitely good reading and of help in these matters.

Peace
James

 

[Thankfulness]

Do you think maybe the best thing is to trust that God has already heard these prayers and will bring about their final repentance, and that if you trust them utterly into God’s hands, you must leave them in His hands, and just don’t ‘go there’ again.

You have repented. It can become self indulgence to not accept that God has truly forgiven and truly given His own merits to saving these souls in His own time, and hurtful lack of trust in Him if you somehow do not believe His forgiveness and His offering of His sacrifice for them at your request isn’t enough.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Thank you James.
I hadn’t thought about it from those angles.
I may receive communion today after all.
I will pray the Chaplet, and see what my mind tells me to do.

It’s just the thought of receiving a sacrilegious communion,
even unintentionally,
scares the living daylights out of me.

God bless you.

 

[JRKH]

Thank you James.
I hadn’t thought about it from those angles.
I may receive communion today after all.
I will pray the Chaplet, and see what my mind tells me to do.

It’s just the thought of receiving a sacrilegious communion,
even unintentionally,
scares the living daylights out of me.

God bless you.

Ole’ Satan can and does use such thoughts to separate us from the graces of communion. So don’t let him trick you here. You have already repented and you recognize your failings. I would suggest that you NOT allow your concerns to separate you from communion this morning.
That said, I DO agree that, regardless, you take this matter to your confessor so that he might offer you guidance - perhaps even some reading suggestions.

Peace
James

 

[Zekariya]

“Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside you and permit them to land!” - Elder Paisios

If the thought comes to mind, realize it and stop them to the best of your ability.

 

[Rascalking]

“Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside you and permit them to land!” - Elder Paisios

If the thought comes to mind, realize it and stop them to the best of your ability.

I think the more you obsess over them the more troublesome they become. Just ignore them and move on to something else.

 

[JRKH]

“Thoughts are like airplanes flying in the air. If you ignore them, there is no problem. If you pay attention to them, you create an airport inside you and permit them to land!” - Elder Paisios

If the thought comes to mind, realize it and stop them to the best of your ability.

I like this analogy.

I think the more you obsess over them the more troublesome they become. Just ignore them and move on to something else.

Both of you make good points but sometimes the matter is more difficult and we should not underestimate the trickery of the devil.

The OP is not really concerned about “Random thoughts”. The thoughts that he is battling stem from a former “way of life” and “habit”. As such they are somewhat engrained, along with the pleasure that he use to derive from the activities associated with the thoughts. So rather than being planes “high in the sky” they are more like planes “buzzing the field”…Much more intrusive than simply random thoughts.

That said, I agree that we run the risk of obsessing on such thoughts too much and falling into despair. Old habits and patterns of thinking need to be replaced by new ones. We need to replace the old “train of thought” with a new one…
For instance - in the old habit, one sexual thought leads to another and the brain is “programmed” to derive enjoyment form that series of thoughts. Now, one must retrain the brain (through grace) so that when the initial thought occurs, an “alarm” goes off and we immediately engage our new response (virtuous thoughts) until the new pattern becomes habit. Eventually we find ourselves dwelling on and deriving so much joy from the new thought pattern that the old thoughts become little more than a minor nuisance - like what you allude to above.

The point is that changing these things requires time and energy and the ability to walk between the extremes of scrupulosity and indifference.

Peace
James

 

[Zekariya]

I have sins from my past that come into my mind. When this happens, I mentally say: “STOP” and change thoughts.

 

[JRKH]

I have sins from my past that come into my mind. When this happens, I mentally say: “STOP” and change thoughts.

When I was battling impure thoughts and actions I would pray, “Take me to the foot of the cross”, and meditate on the sights, sounds and even the smells of what ti would be like to have been there as Christ died for my sin…
This was quite effective at killing off the thought pattern…

Peace
James

 

[Bookcat]

NOTE: This is from previous post of mine…so it does not address your post directly…so do not see it as answers to your particular post (discuss with your confessor). But I offer it as helps for the future…when tempting thoughts may come…

---

Regarding thoughts

while Jesus makes it clear that one can sin in ones thoughts…just cause some lustful thought happens does not mean that one sinned…

(and one can have a sufficiently good reason to think about sexual matters…for instance studying moral theology…but care must be taken to avoid things that would be a problem…but that is another question)

What should we do with* unwanted* sexual thoughts or other bad thoughts…thoughts against God etc? Those pesky temptations that can come …even though we are not seeking them etc…

(there are of course some things we should avoid that cause them…and there can be sin if it is something one should reasonably avoid…but often they come uninvited)

First…Relax. Do not worry.

Now are they mortal sins?

For a mortal sin one needs a grave matter …full knowledge AND deliberate consent!!!

A. If you do not want the thought…it the thought displeases you: it can be a sign actually that you did not give consent or do not give full consent.

B. Even if you felt a temptation for the thought – and were drawn to it —but rejected it and maybe even turned to God : again a sign not full consent.

C. But what if one has a tempting thought --say of a sexual nature and even hesitated for a moment (but not giving full consent)…but then rejected it for one did not want to sin? : it can be partial consent perhaps (and thus a venial sin)-- or it may be no sin at all but rather a strong temptation that drew you but then you saw what was happening and turned away.

D. A temptation can even be very strong or the thoughts very often – but this does NOT mean one has consented! so worry not…even it they go on for a long time…

remember --for it to be mortal there must be that deliberate consent!

What to do? on the spiritual side–relax first of all and remember the above.

Next – know that the more one fears the thoughts the more likely they are to come… or said another way --the more a person seeks to avoid the thoughts the more likely he will have a problem with them. (but do not worry about this either!)

for example: for the next 10 seconds try NOT to think of an apple.

tick tock …

tick tock…

Ok what did you think of? Most likely an apple.

So it is best to ignore them and just not consent and then turn your attention to some other good thing…for instance whatever you are doing. Simply do not consent and move on. and do not worry

another point – thoughts can just happen --they are the stuff with which we think…it is up to us to consent and take them further or not. and just because they are REAL VIVID and almost “think themselves” does not mean per se that one has given ANY consent.

they can be annoying…but need cause no actual harm …

(Now difficulties with thoughts can happen to anyone…and has for centuries…nothing new!..but I will note too that “some” have a condition known as OCD (I knew someone with this once…it was a painful experience)…and thus should seek further professional help to work at overcoming it and to live a more peaceful life)

---

Another help…is the distinction between “first thoughts and emotions” (as Baur calls em) what they call the prima of the prima…“the first of the first” (as one of my Professors called em…he was a Dominican)…these are involuntary things that just come up…such are not sins. They can tempt one of course to sin…or one can then proceed to some sin…but they are the stuff of the mind and emotions which “happen to one” …and really the are opportunities for growing in virtue etc as well…

How to deal with these? First of relax…don’t scruple…don’t fear them…to try to swat them all as the come…just simply turn to other things…or the thing you are doing…or to God…(of course do not consent)…but if you are too defensive against them…they may get worse actually…and confuse you more…instead turn to God or again other good things…accept that hey…somethings wild thoughts will come to you…

(and these can happen to all of us by the way…)

There is a story from the desert of the early Centuries of the Church where a younger hermit when to an older one with the problems of thoughts happening to him all the time…the older hermit told him to go outside open his cloak and catch the wind.

The younger hermit said such is not possible…

the older hermit replied --neither is it possible to stop all the thoughts that can come to you…your choice is to say “yes” or “no”.

So relax about “unwanted thoughts”…sometimes they just come…you know like unwanted phone calls from politicitians and salepersons etc…but you can always say “no thank you” or just ignore the call and go about your business

 

[Zekariya]

When I was battling impure thoughts and actions I would pray, “Take me to the foot of the cross”, and meditate on the sights, sounds and even the smells of what ti would be like to have been there as Christ died for my sin…
This was quite effective at killing off the thought pattern…

Peace
James

Awesome!

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Hi, thanks everybody.

I agree that thoughts can be dismissed.
But there are different kinds of sinful “thoughts.”
For example, if I see a neighbor driving a nice new car, and I think,
boy would I like to have that very car!!, that is not necessarily a sin.
But if I start thinking of ways to steal the car from my neighbor,
and really entertain the desire to steal it seriously, then I believe that
by that very fact, I will have finally sinned.

Sinful sexual thoughts, however, of a much different nature, especially if one, like me,
has been sexually sinful often in the past. The body remembers the intense pleasure of the sexual act, even if my MIND does not want to break the laws of God again. Then there are the “imaginings” which occur, the remembrances vividly of the deeds which further excite the body. With my mind, I want them to go away and not offend God. But my visual imaginings/remembrances and the remembered passions that they trigger,
are almost brutal to succeed in dismissing.
So I would say to everyone here: If you haven’t sexually sinned,
then by all means DO NOT EVER DO SO. Don’t even take a fleeting GLANCE at a porn website, either. Don’t do that to yourself. It remains with you, powerfully, even after you have repented of ever doing it again. I THINK that that is why Saint Paul wrote
that we must at all costs avoid Sexual Immorality in PARTICULAR, because he who sins sexually, as Paul put it, Sins against His OWN Body, whereas every other sin is OUTSIDE the body, as Paul also said.
Thanks everybody, for your insightful comments, and God bless you.
I confessed after mass, and was then given communion, after Mass.
God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+**
PRAY THE ROSARY DAILY**

 

[Zekariya]

So I would say to everyone here: If you haven’t sexually sinned,
then by all means DO NOT EVER DO SO. Don’t even take a fleeting GLANCE at a porn website, either. Don’t do that to yourself. It remains with you, powerfully, even after you have repented of ever doing it again.

I agree fully with this! It does remain with you.

 

[hunter123]

knowing that my sins condenmed these persons caused me great sorrow.That is what kept these thoughts from being arousing to me.
Perhaps you are being too specific in your prayers and this is the “trigger”
a personal prayer" Lord i give thee these memeories, to pruify in the fire of thine mercy."

Your sins did not condemn anyone. Only God has the power to condemn. God is ultimate justice and if they so deserve he will give them chances to repent.

 

[fbl9]

Your sins did not condemn anyone. Only God has the power to condemn. God is ultimate justice and **if they so deserve **he will give them chances to repent.

Perhaps you meant this differently but not one ever** deserves **a chance to repent or anything from God for that matter.

unrepented mortal sin condenms one’s soul, mortal sin is a death sentence.
a person remains condenmed until such sentence is lifted.