Sexuality - a gift from God?

[starling]

Here’s one more thing the so-called “traditionalists” can return to. It used to be that devout Catholic husbands would go entire lifetimes without ever seeing their wife naked, and sex would occur with the absolute minimum amount of exposure. The woman would take great care not to enjoy it, and she would “offer it up to God” as a necessary and painful duty. We’re talking well into the 20th century here (even into the latter half of it), not hundreds of years ago. If it was a gift of God, it was purely a mechanistic one. Luckily, things change.

 

[Em_in_FL]

**Please note:**This happens during a small window in our month when she is not fertile, since we practice natural family planning, so when the time comes that we can be intimate, her enthusiasm is just not there…

So, when the signs are there, sometimes I don’t want to ask or advance anymore. I know what the outcome will be and it makes me feel like I’m this overly sexual person that can’t get enough or something. So I try to suppress the urge.

But, like I said, I think I need to adjust my attitude/mindset and be content with the once a month-maybe scenario, Maybe I’m too selfish in wanting it more when we obviously can’t do it more often.

The picture gets clearer and clearer…

I do understand the “lack of enthusiasm” during the non-fertile phase. That’s so normal!.. and the tiredness of being busy… these aren’t abnormal situations!

I agree that an attitude/midset change may be necessary… but not as drastic as you may think! Just plan ahead! If you know it’s the infertile time of the month… come home early from work, help your wife with dinner, help clean up, get the kids off to bed early… then relax together with a glass of wine(which can help with the “enthusiasm” part! )…
If you plan ahead on things like this… it tends to get easier. Get excited about it instead of dreading “asking” her… know what I mean?

God bless!

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

Here’s one more thing the so-called “traditionalists” can return to. It used to be that devout Catholic husbands would go entire lifetimes without ever seeing their wife naked, and sex would occur with the absolute minimum amount of exposure. The woman would take great care not to enjoy it, and she would “offer it up to God” as a necessary and painful duty. We’re talking well into the 20th century here (even into the latter half of it), not hundreds of years ago. If it was a gift of God, it was purely a mechanistic one. Luckily, things change.

Being an old guy, my understanding of the CCC’s statement that “Married people are called to live in conjugal chastity” (#2349) evokes an image of precisely what you cited - which is just what I was taught back in the day. Would love to see an official Church teaching or document (Christopher West not being “official”) that holds otherwise.

 

[Fidelia]

Being an old guy, my understanding of the CCC’s statement that “Married people are called to live in conjugal chastity” (#2349) evokes an image of precisely what you cited - which is just what I was taught back in the day. Would love to see an official Church teaching or document (Christopher West not being “official”) that holds otherwise.

I don’t think “conjugal chastity” means a woman just being her husband’s sex toy, which really seems to be what was implied by that sceario.

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

I don’t think “conjugal chastity” means a woman just being her husband’s sex toy, which really seems to be what was implied by that sceario.

Oh no, never meant to imply that. My point, perhaps poorly stated, was that in what was cited as a “traditionalist” scenario, joyfulness and real intimacy was lacking for BOTH partners, as was mutual pleasure. It was that image that I said was evoked by the CCC’s “conjugal chastity” description. And, for that matter, I don’t think “toy” aptly fits the description either in that the traditionalist description quoted is hardly a playful one, where even the man is deprived of the sight of his wife.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Thurible,

How universal was the “old school”? It seems that some Catholics had that puritanistic view while others, of the same time period, were much more exuberant.

If you want something more “official” than Christopher West, read the Theology of the Body. That’s at least as official as Pope John Paul II. It’s not an encyclical but it is from the pope.

I realize some Church fathers taught a very dour sexual ethic. But unless those teaching were universally accepted by all the bishops that dour sexual ethic cannot be trusted as “infallible”.

 

[LovedForever]

Thank you for the great posts from Black Jaque and from BlestOne.

You make some good points Black Jaque,
My wife treats the subject very casually. Nothing is wrong,
we’re just very busy.

Like I said in a previous post, my wife is wonderful and I know she has rough days, just like me, so I can’t expect it from her at the drop of a hat.
I know how to read the signs of headache, tiredness, etc…

**Please note:**This happens during a small window in our month when she is not fertile, since we practice natural family planning, so when the time comes that we can be intimate, her enthusiasm is just not there…

So, when the signs are there, sometimes I don’t want to ask or advance anymore. I know what the outcome will be and it makes me feel like I’m this overly sexual person that can’t get enough or something. So I try to suppress the urge.

But, like I said, I think I need to adjust my attitude/mindset and be content with the once a month-maybe scenario, Maybe I’m too selfish in wanting it more when we obviously can’t do it more often.

This was the cause of my dispair in the first place though, thinking like in the paragraph above leads me to frustration. And that can lead to occasions of sin…
So, do I go back and try my luck again when there will be none?

Round and round I go…

It’s sooo confusing, but I really just need to get my mind straight.
I’m sure it’s not this bad at all, I’ll make peace with the once a month thing, and I’ll be happy

A woman’s hormonal cycle fluctuates alot during the course of a month where a man’s is basically consistent. (Ready to go anytime! )

Herein lies, I suspect, a likely reason why during your wife’s “non-fertile” phase that her libido is low. God designed it so that it is built-in to a woman’s hormonal cycle - that during her ‘fertile’ phase, she is much more “in the mood” (due to levels of specific hormones responsible for this)! It helps propogate the human race.
Because you are trying to avoid pregnancy at this time, you only engage in intercourse during her “non-fertile” period and therefore her hormones and not in the “amorous” phase and her libido is low.
Most likely during her “fertile” and revved up libido phase, she distracts herself from it because she knows to give in to it might equal a pregnancy. And she does not want to gives YOU false hope by displaying any feelings of being “in the mood.”

There ARE ways though to improve those non-fertile and lower libido times that are your only window of opportunity to be intimate.
And it has everything to do with HER.
She needs to become much more educated on what it is like to be a MAN.
How a man’s needs are very different from a woman’s.
And that it is HER moral obligation to attend to those needs in more than a perfunctory way.
It can be done.
It’s all in the “attitude” if she is only willing.
Again, I suggest you get her a copy of Dr. Laura’s book, “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands.”
I truly think it will open her eyes to herself in ways that will astound her.
God Bless you both - you are in my prayers!

 

[ThuribleGuy45]

Thurible,

How universal was the “old school”? It seems that some Catholics had that puritanistic view while others, of the same time period, were much more exuberant.

If you want something more “official” than Christopher West, read the Theology of the Body. That’s at least as official as Pope John Paul II. It’s not an encyclical but it is from the pope.

I realize some Church fathers taught a very dour sexual ethic. But unless those teaching were universally accepted by all the bishops that dour sexual ethic cannot be trusted as “infallible”.

Black Jaque, thanks for your suggestion. Seen the pope’s original TOB discourses online, but never studied them. I liked your use of “exuberant.” My little “back in the day” corner of Catholicism was Massachusetts French Canadian/Irish in the 1950’s, and while it was many good things, it was certainly not “exuberant” in teaching us concerning the “gift” that is the topic here. In hindsight, in the home of the Puritans, we seems to be trying to out-Puritan them.

A continuing problem for me is that the CCC is still so guarded in its descriptions: warning against “inordinate enjoyment” (2351) without defining that; calling people to “conjugal chastity” (2349) and a “chaste union” (2362). Hard to find much exuberance, joy, or celebration of the “gift” there!

 

[Black_Jaque]

But, like I said, I think I need to adjust my attitude/mindset and be content with the once a month-maybe scenario, Maybe I’m too selfish in wanting it more when we obviously can’t do it more often.

What do you mean you obviously can’t do it more often [than once a month]?

If the two of you agreed that you will practice NFP to avoid pregnancy, and for some odd reason there is only one day in her cycle that is open then yes perhaps you’re being selfish. Or perhaps God is nudging you towards having more children.

But, generally speaking, NFP should allow for more than one day per month. Maybe you’ll only get one phase, but that phase should consist of several open days.

But hey, try it and see. If you can handle once-a-month then the temptations to sin should lessen, or become easier to cope with.

Otherwise, you just might consider that God is not letting your sexual desire abate for a reason.

 

[Fidelia]

Oh no, never meant to imply that. My point, perhaps poorly stated, was that in what was cited as a “traditionalist” scenario, joyfulness and real intimacy was lacking for BOTH partners, as was mutual pleasure. It was that image that I said was evoked by the CCC’s “conjugal chastity” description. And, for that matter, I don’t think “toy” aptly fits the description either in that the traditionalist description quoted is hardly a playful one, where even the man is deprived of the sight of his wife.

Ah, ok, now I see what you meant. “conjugal chastity” still doesn’t seem like a horrible thing, though, if it means that being married doesn’t just mean ‘anything goes’ because now you’re allowed.

 

[Black_Jaque]

Thurible,

Another suggestion would be to read G.K. Chesterton.

He is no doctor of the Church (not yet anyway), nor a pope, nor a saint. But he is widely accepted as having spoken the truth about things. And by widely accepted, I mean Catholic bishops and such will quote him.

Chesterton lived and died well before Vatican II - so he should give you some indication that not all pre-vatican II Catholicism was as you experienced.

Do a google search for “American Chesterton Society” and they’ll be able to give you a more thorough introduction.

 

[LovedForever]

Thank you for the great posts from Black Jaque and from BlestOne.

You make some good points Black Jaque,
My wife treats the subject very casually. Nothing is wrong,
we’re just very busy.

Like I said in a previous post, my wife is wonderful and I know she has rough days, just like me, so I can’t expect it from her at the drop of a hat.
I know how to read the signs of headache, tiredness, etc…

**Please note:**This happens during a small window in our month when she is not fertile, since we practice natural family planning, so when the time comes that we can be intimate, her enthusiasm is just not there…

So, when the signs are there, sometimes I don’t want to ask or advance anymore. I know what the outcome will be and it makes me feel like I’m this overly sexual person that can’t get enough or something. So I try to suppress the urge.

But, like I said, I think I need to adjust my attitude/mindset and be content with the once a month-maybe scenario, Maybe I’m too selfish in wanting it more when we obviously can’t do it more often.

This was the cause of my dispair in the first place though, thinking like in the paragraph above leads me to frustration. And that can lead to occasions of sin…
So, do I go back and try my luck again when there will be none?

Round and round I go…

It’s sooo confusing, but I really just need to get my mind straight.
I’m sure it’s not this bad at all, I’ll make peace with the once a month thing, and I’ll be happy

Pennitent Man - I posted this on another thread but I should have posted here I think! Anyway, I’ll plop it here!

Pennitent Man - Here is a letter to Dr. Laura from a wife who so greatly benefitted from reading the book recommended to you by Dr. Laura called, “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands.” There are many, many similar testimonies from women saying the same thing:

**"Dear Dr. Laura,

I just wanted to write and tell you thank you. I called 4 weeks ago to discuss the fact that my Darling Husband had in fact cheated on me with my best friend. Your advice changed me!

Since that brief discussion with you, I have become a better wife & mother. Mostly, a better wife!! Since then I have purchased your book (Proper Care & Feeding of Husbands) and have been enlightened by it. After the first chapter, I completely changed my attitude and stopped feeding myself, and started feeding my husband. The overwhelming change in my husband & myself has been enlightening. I have been married for 7 years and I have never ever felt the connection with my husband that I do now, all by practicing what you’ve taught in your book. I now am EXCITED and HAPPY to see my husband after he gets home from work. After 7 years of being in a marriage coma, we are now back on track and amazingly my sex drive has reappeared all because of my change of thinking. I finally realized that the marriage wasn’t just about me and my needs but in fact it was about my husband & his needs. I have never loved someone so much in my entire life and now feel that my marriage has been what it was supposed to be all along, EXCITING!!

Thank you so much for everything!!

Amy

p.s. I have dropped the friend and have gained a LOVER!! (my husband of course)

C. **

(I hope it is OK to post this here! )