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djames99
Guest
I was wondering if the constitution permits individuals continuing their formation workshop at another fraternity from the chapter they left off?.
Thanks
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
In theory, I would suppose so. Be aware that the new fraternity may
- Refuse you
- Allow you to continue at the point you left off (be prepared to provide documentation)
- Have you restart at another point (including starting from scratch)
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Marauder
Guest
You are specifically asking whether this is addressed in the constitution. It isn’t. The constitution and statutes only address the length of time of each of the phases. As Luigi Daniele said the fraternity you are going in has basically three options. Refuse you, start you out where you are, or start you at another point. In general it will depend on the formation team of the fraternity into which you are transferring. First they will need to assess where you are in formation and compare it to where people currently are in formation in their fraternity. As an example, say their formation group is in the last week of formation of candidacy and you are in an early stage, they will probably make you wait until another candidacy group is formed. Or if the current group is “behind” you, they may request you join the current group where there are currently. Formation in OFS is supposed to be done with multiple people, except in rare circumstances, formation isn’t private. There are lots of other factors, just as an example if your original group used formation materials or did things in an Order that was totally different from the fraternity you are transferring into. All of this needs to be assessed by the formation team.
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joanofarc2008
Guest
I have moved twice during my formation. I have started over both times. This is not due to having a poor formation team - it was due to my newness and life issues the first time, and the second time, well, some other reasons that had to do with the institution of the new FUN program. I think the best thing to do is to remember that profession is what God works in us and not anything we do to achieve a goal.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Really like your avatar.
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djames99
Guest
First they will need to assess where you are in formation and compare it to where people currently are in formation in their fraternity.
So the timetable for initiation prior to being eligible for formation is not a fixed time as stated in the constitution. I was told formation is geared to formation readiness determined through a set time period, not on how many can fill the seats.
your original group used formation materials
The material is standardized nationally.
On closing, objectively it makes a interesting case in the broader analysis. So then we have no mention in the constitution of a particular case and the exception is basically left open, and, no, it does not automatically fall judicially in favor of the fraternity. We have here a lack of ruling in this particular case, therefore, the governing agent falls to the underlying authority and it’s judicial system which takes precedence. This authority is the Catholic Church, which the candidate is a member, and has the liberty to take advantage of it’s full fruits, including the facilities of the orders that he qualifies for. Therefore in this judicial decision, he could appeal to it’s laws, which are based on the principle that favor is to the least advantaged, ie: the candidate.
An interesting case for canon lawyers I would guess.
*Formation in OFS is supposed to be done with multiple people, except in rare circumstances, formation isn’t private. *
True. A fraternity never knows how many may attend and when they will apply.
Thanks for the help.
So the timetable for initiation prior to being eligible for formation is not a fixed time as stated in the constitution. I was told formation is geared to formation readiness determined through a set time period, not on how many can fill the seats.
your original group used formation materials
The material is standardized nationally.
On closing, objectively it makes a interesting case in the broader analysis. So then we have no mention in the constitution of a particular case and the exception is basically left open, and, no, it does not automatically fall judicially in favor of the fraternity. We have here a lack of ruling in this particular case, therefore, the governing agent falls to the underlying authority and it’s judicial system which takes precedence. This authority is the Catholic Church, which the candidate is a member, and has the liberty to take advantage of it’s full fruits, including the facilities of the orders that he qualifies for. Therefore in this judicial decision, he could appeal to it’s laws, which are based on the principle that favor is to the least advantaged, ie: the candidate.
An interesting case for canon lawyers I would guess.
*Formation in OFS is supposed to be done with multiple people, except in rare circumstances, formation isn’t private. *
True. A fraternity never knows how many may attend and when they will apply.
Thanks for the help.
M
Marauder
Guest
Honestly djames99, in my own personal opinion based on the numerous times you have posted on here, the impression I get is your focus on the exact details of the constitution and its possible loopholes show that you are not ready yet. The Constitution and statutes give time windows, not exact times. The Constitution and statutes also gives liberty to each of the fraternities to determine if you are truly called. There is no right to join an Order. There is no right that a particular fraternity has to accept you or what you have done in another fraternity. This is another thread where it sounds like you are trying to find loopholes in something that isn’t meant to be like American law. This is supposed to be about spirituality and following the Franciscan charism, not trying to bend the rules to suit your needs. If it takes a little longer then the minimum to join the Order that should be looked at as a time of blessing to become stronger in your formation, not as an impediment. It took me over a year of attending my current fraternity as a visitor before they had enough people to form an Inquiry class. Other then not being able to vote or join the council I could do everything else that everyone else did. I know people that voluntarily took temporary profession twice before doing permanent profession. That shows the person realized the seriousness of what they were doing and they had more time to go through initial formation because of it. Extra time and extra formation shouldn’t be looked on as a penalty.
No, the FUN materials have just now come out and there is no requirement for their immediate usage. Not to mention the new materials are just a framework, each fraternity fills in holes with their own materials. From what I hear many fraternities are using both the new FUN materials and the original “Fully Mature in the Fullness of Christ” materials.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
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djames99
Guest
*There is no right to join an Order *
Imagined. I never implied this.
*Honestly djames99, in my own personal opinion based on the numerous times you have posted on here, the impression I get is your focus on the exact details of the constitution and its possible loopholes show that you are not ready yet.
*
I’m not interested in your honesty. Your record keeping on the forum members shows a deep pathological disturbance. I doubt that Francis in his humble way would feel you are his representative. You are not a spiritual director nor are you on a public forum in a pastoral setting.
Don’t try to divert your argument into ambiguity in order to set me up for measure of qualification. This ruse is not new, is known to the majority of Franciscans. Do you use this excuse for other arguments as well.? The Holy Spirit I’m sure frowns on it. There is no issue and the context is a social one and I present valid points.
This is an opportune time to state some warnings for the candidates.
Professed members have been given elective status in the acceptance of new members. Their profession is supposed to somehow qualify them to discern the spiritual state of the candidate that would qualify them for the fraternity, as well as determine if the person gets along with all the other members, and this is not necessarily liking every person either. (L. Bach)
The fact is they are to set aside their personal dislikes and focus on only this. The reality is there is no way the Fraternity can monitor if the professed member is competent, that he does not arbor deep seated ill feelings about a certain candidate, or is in conflict of interest in some way. The idea is that the national Fraternity trusts they will voluntarily back out of the elective process if such is the case. How many in the decades that have passed have any professed honestly admitted to this?.
Now this new found responsibility is a lot of power in one person’s hands. One could be tempted to use it to effect personal desires and making someone you dislike not realize his dream. Here all manner of schemes are devised such as diverting every argument to a spiritual defect. I have seen this cruelly used against candidates who were led to believe they were not qualified. Some cases appear here on this forum. It makes me wonder how many were simply weaseled out of spite, and how many were legit. We have even seen it in the typical cloister where the stern inflexible tyrant matron does not see the quality of a candidate who later becomes saint.
The responsibilities vested in the professed to do this task would even tax any psychiatric professional, let alone a professed fraternity member unskilled in social understandings, personality types, and manifest characters. Why, it is believed that St. Peter was a strong personality. Would he be disqualified today by an unqualified professed member if he were a candidate for the Fraternity because his personality equates to a …spiritual deficiency?
The job that needs to be done is much more important to leave in the hands of people who are unskilled in the human social sphere. The fraternity is also a social institution. The questions from my original post to marauder were in a social context, not spiritual.
Imagined. I never implied this.
*Honestly djames99, in my own personal opinion based on the numerous times you have posted on here, the impression I get is your focus on the exact details of the constitution and its possible loopholes show that you are not ready yet.
*
I’m not interested in your honesty. Your record keeping on the forum members shows a deep pathological disturbance. I doubt that Francis in his humble way would feel you are his representative. You are not a spiritual director nor are you on a public forum in a pastoral setting.
Don’t try to divert your argument into ambiguity in order to set me up for measure of qualification. This ruse is not new, is known to the majority of Franciscans. Do you use this excuse for other arguments as well.? The Holy Spirit I’m sure frowns on it. There is no issue and the context is a social one and I present valid points.
This is an opportune time to state some warnings for the candidates.
Professed members have been given elective status in the acceptance of new members. Their profession is supposed to somehow qualify them to discern the spiritual state of the candidate that would qualify them for the fraternity, as well as determine if the person gets along with all the other members, and this is not necessarily liking every person either. (L. Bach)
The fact is they are to set aside their personal dislikes and focus on only this. The reality is there is no way the Fraternity can monitor if the professed member is competent, that he does not arbor deep seated ill feelings about a certain candidate, or is in conflict of interest in some way. The idea is that the national Fraternity trusts they will voluntarily back out of the elective process if such is the case. How many in the decades that have passed have any professed honestly admitted to this?.
Now this new found responsibility is a lot of power in one person’s hands. One could be tempted to use it to effect personal desires and making someone you dislike not realize his dream. Here all manner of schemes are devised such as diverting every argument to a spiritual defect. I have seen this cruelly used against candidates who were led to believe they were not qualified. Some cases appear here on this forum. It makes me wonder how many were simply weaseled out of spite, and how many were legit. We have even seen it in the typical cloister where the stern inflexible tyrant matron does not see the quality of a candidate who later becomes saint.
The responsibilities vested in the professed to do this task would even tax any psychiatric professional, let alone a professed fraternity member unskilled in social understandings, personality types, and manifest characters. Why, it is believed that St. Peter was a strong personality. Would he be disqualified today by an unqualified professed member if he were a candidate for the Fraternity because his personality equates to a …spiritual deficiency?
The job that needs to be done is much more important to leave in the hands of people who are unskilled in the human social sphere. The fraternity is also a social institution. The questions from my original post to marauder were in a social context, not spiritual.
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Marauder
Guest
Fine, doesn’t matter to me. Based on your comments here, it honestly sounds like you have heard it before from people that are closer to the situation. Trying to force a vocation is never a good thing to do.
So now I am keeping records on all the forum members. Feel free to attack me all you want, like St. Francis I have no problems with personal attacks and even welcome them. Your original question was answered, I will not participate in mudslinging. If your impression of the methods OFS uses to determine vocations is that they are flawed, why continue? It may be one of the many signs from the Holy Spirit that it isn’t the right organization for you.
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