SFO Terminology and Form I

[djames99]

Except, are you really in a court of law?

Or are you trying to discern whether or not you have a vocation to the SFO?

{They’re 2 different things, you know.}

The unfairness would come about if I prevented the Order from countering my observation which is it’s right. Indeed, my love for the Order has me concerned that I AM right. But I will not say that I am wrong because I love it. God would forbid me to do so.

The Church expects every Catholic to watch to ensure the instruments of justice are being applied fairly in our day to day life, and that’s a duty not an option. Yes, it is a matter of justice.

St. Paul needed to correct St. Peter at one time. The Church has issued apologies for past errors also, and it goes on. The assurance of infallibility is only the trust that the Holy Spirit will not let the Church be destroyed.(“conscience in conflict”, K.R. Oberberg SJ)

As for discernment, my motives and intent are to build up the order. My thread here is filled with suggestions on how to improve it.

 

[Marauder]

As for discernment, my motives and intent are to build up the order. My thread here is filled with suggestions on how to improve it.

And it is statements like this that show you haven’t yet understood some of the most important aspects of Franciscan spirituality. If you feel the most important things is how YOU can improve the Order then it doesn’t sound like this is the Order for you. Honestly right now it sounds like you want to preach to Order and anyone that will listen. It doesn’t sound like you are looking for answers.

Many of your “improvements” to the Order are already dealt with using methods. This is a religious Order, not a college or grade school. Getting a report card as you go is not an improvement. Attending formation classes and participating fully in that formation is the method for feedback, in conjunction with the 3 primary stages of formation. Prayer, discernment, and researching the charism and the Order is what is important, not trying to change the Order as a whole. Maybe your fraternity may be having issues, if that is the case seek out a new fraternity. If you are having issues with the Order as a whole, I suggest looking for a different Order. I highly suggest reading about the life of St. Francis and his 28 admonitions. Read them closely and pray about getting a clear understanding of their meanings. That will help you see if you are living the Franciscan charism and it is meant for you.

 

[EvelynEVF]

In the orientation section of the formation book Come and See, there are several lists of things which help a person discern. Practical stuff, like if you’re a joiner, this may not be the place for you. This might be helpful to read if you are discerning.

There are milestones, in a way. Early on, one must submit all that paperwork to attest that one is a Catholic in good standing objectively, and recommended to be pursuing a vocation by priest/spiritual director. There are constant ongoing discussions with the formation team. Admission to inquiry means so far, so good. Admission to candidacy involves a sit-down with the whole council, which then votes.

Of course I have experience only with my own formation and profession within my own fraternity, but there was a great deal of discernment and dialogue on both sides, during the whole initial formation period. There were no surprises–everything was discussed thoroughly.

We once had a person slip through the cracks at least a decade ago, where the initial paperwork was never done, and when the person was presented to the council for profession, it was discovered that he wasn’t even catholic. Ever since, it has been a very high priority in this fraternity to keep formation very well documented and all concerns are addressed immediately.

 

[TrueLight]

Indeed, you’d make a much better Dominican!

I agree.

Although, I’m not sure any order would respond well to these types of questions, OP because they come across as confrontational and lacking in humility.

 

[iloveangels]

I agree.

Although, I’m not sure any order would respond well to these types of questions, OP because they come across as confrontational and lacking in humility.

Thanks for pointing that out, TrueLight. I don’t know the OP at all, but let me just say this:

It’s important to remember that the whole period before profession is one of discernment to see if there is a vocation and and specifically if it there is a match between the person and the order. It can take quite a while to discern this, and that’s one of the reasons that the formation takes a while, in addition to the time it takes to learn new ways and learn the material. And yes, it is important to do this carefully, EvelynEVF.

If a decision is made, by either side, that there isn’t a solid enough vocation to continue, then it does no good for either party to try to force the will of the other. It will only lead to grief in the long run.

There are many cases of people who visit one order, only to find that they end up in another, or even end up not joining an order. There is nothing wrong with not joining any of them, you know. There is a perfectly good spirituality for laypeople who belong to parishes, which is getting more attention since Vatican II. Most of the church doesn’t belong to a third order, or any order at all. It’s always been that way.

 

[Julia_Mae]

This would be in conformity with Christ encouraging his Disciples on.

Where did He do that?

I’m hard-pressed to think of a time Francis did it.

IMO, just from reading your posts, “I want to understand all of this,” expresses a desire for control. Francis told the brothers who couldn’t read not to learn. We want control because things scare us, like, “What if I go and I’m not good enough.”

OTOH, it does’t mean the SFO isn’t for you and I wish folks would stop saying stuff like that.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Here’s a possible analogy: You date someone. You make it through the milestone 3rd date. You both ask lots of questions, meet each other’s family and friends, date no one else. You get engaged and take the time for months of preCana. It ought to be the case that you’ve done due diligence and there would be no major surprises. BUT, each party is free to leave the relationship, or cancel or delay the wedding, right up until the last second. This is a lifelong commitment.

It’s sad when people sometimes lead each other on for selfish reasons. Still, even in the healthiest, most promising relationship, a third date guarantees nothing. Engagement doesn’t even guarantee a wedding.

Make sense?

 

[Marauder]

OTOH, it does’t mean the SFO isn’t for you and I wish folks would stop saying stuff like that.

Nobody has said that, the only things people are saying is that his posts in their current format do not reflect humility and people are encouraging him to follow the process for proper discernment. This also includes understanding that discernment can include the possibility that SFO wasn’t meant for him. As I said earlier, you can’t “judge” someone based on a small number of posts on an anonymous bulletin board.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Nobody has said that,…

If you feel the most important things is how YOU can improve the Order then it doesn’t sound like this is the Order for you…

I think that’s the 2nd time ITT. You said it to me about the second time you posted. Maybe you don’t even know you do it. You aren’t the only one and I wish people would stop doing this. I have yet to hear anyone ask, “Do people on the forum think I have a vocation to the SFO?”

Remember who Paul was before he was called. Or who Francis was. God calls people to things for the benefit of their souls. We are called because we are not yet formed. If we were already Franciscans we wouldn’t need to be there.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I think that’s the 2nd time ITT. You said it to me about the second time you posted. Maybe you don’t even know you do it. You aren’t the only one and I wish people would stop doing this. I have yet to hear anyone ask, “Do people on the forum think I have a vocation to the SFO?”

Remember who Paul was before he was called. Or who Francis was. God calls people to things for the benefit of their souls. We are called because we are not yet formed. If we were already Franciscans we wouldn’t need to be there.

I don’t know if I agree with this last part. I was always taught that we have the charism and that is why we are called to this vocation. It is through vocation that we further develop this charism. This also seems in line with paragraph 12 of Lumen Gentium and several other writings. This is just an opinion but it is a pretty strong one.

Yes we go through TranSFOrmation but we I believe we do so on the backdrop of a charism we already were gifted through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Marauder]

I think that’s the 2nd time ITT. You said it to me about the second time you posted. Maybe you don’t even know you do it. You aren’t the only one and I wish people would stop doing this. I have yet to hear anyone ask, “Do people on the forum think I have a vocation to the SFO?”

It sounds like you are failing to assume good faith in what people are posting. Must I qualify every time I use the word “you” with whether it is a generic “you”, a particular poster or the OP? Nowhere have I said OP you are not called to join SFO so quit now. Everyone should assume best of intentions when people write on here.

As I said in the line you quote. If a person, whether it be the OP or anyone else discerning joining SFO or any order for that matter’s true purpose is to dictate to the Order how it can improve then it may not be the Order they are called to join. Especially an Order that prides obedience and humility above all else. All the posts that give advice say to pray, discern, etc. A person that remains steadfast without humility will not mesh well with the Franciscan charism. In one of the early posts I recognized that I had traits like this, it was overcoming those traits that pointed to the true calling, so I definitely would never say someone that I have never met on an online forum isn’t called to SFO.

Again assume good faith. We can give guidelines and tell people what traits work and don’t work within the charism, otherwise it is hollow guidance. What is better, giving someone a true picture of what discernment is like or acting like “everyone gets in, no problem, just drink the Kool Aide, don’t worry it will be fine.”

People need to realize that discernment is a two-way street, both the individual and the fraternity have a say in whether someone is admitted to a fraternity. The discernment process should be viewed as a win/win situation. If you are called you will be admitted, if not and the problems are insurmountable, then you weren’t meant to be in. No matter what exploring your spirituality should be viewed as a good thing.

 

[EvelynEVF]

This came up in the OP’s thread with Roman numeral II, and I wanted to mention it here. It’s very important in formation that it not be about giving the best possible impression. Again, I think it’s like dating a bit, in that initially you feel each other out and don’t reveal too much, but as the commitment deepens, so does your knowledge of the other. How is the council to make a decision if a person is not being him/herself? Yes, I argued with two members of the council, had some very deep personal discussions and disagreements, and I feel quite certain that they based their decisions about me on reality.

if a person is afraid that “If I let them see who I really am and what my strong opinions are, they will misunderstand me and vote against me,” then either the candidate is not trusting the Holy Spirit to work through the council or b) the candidate has an intuitive understanding that something is seriously wrong with the council. In either case, it clearly isn’t a good fit.

 

[joanofarc2008]

This came up in the OP’s thread with Roman numeral II, and I wanted to mention it here. It’s very important in formation that it not be about giving the best possible impression. Again, I think it’s like dating a bit, in that initially you feel each other out and don’t reveal too much, but as the commitment deepens, so does your knowledge of the other. How is the council to make a decision if a person is not being him/herself? Yes, I argued with two members of the council, had some very deep personal discussions and disagreements, and I feel quite certain that they based their decisions about me on reality.

if a person is afraid that “If I let them see who I really am and what my strong opinions are, they will misunderstand me and vote against me,” then either the candidate is not trusting the Holy Spirit to work through the council or b) the candidate has an intuitive understanding that something is seriously wrong with the council. In either case, it clearly isn’t a good fit.

I think this brings up a good point. In my case I told the person how I felt when she did certain things. i know it went back to the council. I know it didn’t look good for me but I was asked about it and I got a chance to defend myself. The other person is planning on going and saying her peace to the council without ever telling the person directly. I did not feel that was fair to the professed member. This is someone I will be in a community with for a lifetime. How could I go behind this person’s back now and feel OK with her five years from now. I think the Holy Spirit will look more kindly on that action as formation continues.

 

[iloveangels]

Where did He do that?

I’m hard-pressed to think of a time Francis did it.

IMO, just from reading your posts, “I want to understand all of this,” expresses a desire for control. Francis told the brothers who couldn’t read not to learn. We want control because things scare us, like, “What if I go and I’m not good enough.”

OTOH, it does’t mean the SFO isn’t for you and I wish folks would stop saying stuff like that.

We’re not saying that, Julia. If I understand him correctly, he is saying that there is some question among those in his formation group about his vocation.

We are saying that the tone of his posts and the methods he has chosen to go after them in dispute over the whole thing are a) not Franciscan in tone, and b) not in line with where he is in the process. Exploring whether one has a vocation is just exactly that. One doesn’t decide they want a vocation and then go after it like they go after a new car or even a new job. And surely not like an argument that they have to “win.”

No one has a “right” to profession in any order in the church. These are vocations that one is called to and one responds to. Not everyone has a vocation to a third order. Many people do not. There is nothing tragic or wrong about that. Being in a third order is not objectively any worse or better than being in any other sort of Christian community. Most of the Church does not belong to a third order, and that’s how it’s supposed to be.

Most of the laypeople in the church are called to be Catholics primarily in parish and natural community–work and family. That’s where they’re supposed to seek holiness. That is their vocation, their calling, and that’s where they’re supposed to respond.

Important: Regardless of what the calling is–one’s response to it in grace and fidelity–is what really matters.

 

[iloveangels]

I believe the advice has also been given that if this fraternity or order doesn’t fit him personally, it might be good to look at other fraternities or even other third orders. And to look at membership in parish life very closely as a primary vocation.

Everyone has a vocation to something and he needs to find out what that is. Fuming about a fraternity is kind of wasting time and effort on this account–it’s probably not getting him any closer to responding to God in his real vocation, whatever that is, simply because all this arguing is not how one responds to a calling.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

I’ve lived this. The fraternity has to have the right of refusal, as it were…even if the person has been in formation for quite some time, if the circumstances warrant it. I have seen an OFS chapter go from 40 members to 7, because they had 4 really bad candidates in a row. Not Franciscan, at all. But the professed members either didn’t care, didn’t want to get involved, or were unaware (how, I don’t know). If this OFS “journey home” thing works out, I will never allow this to happen again (although I think that the remaining core gets this). It is not Franciscan, let alone Catholic, to allow someone to remain in their errors, and tacitly seem to be agreeing with them.

Sorry, needed to get that off my chest.

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t know if I agree with this last part. I was always taught that we have the charism and that is why we are called to this vocation. It is through vocation that we further develop this charism. This also seems in line with paragraph 12 of Lumen Gentium and several other writings. This is just an opinion but it is a pretty strong one.

Yes we go through TranSFOrmation but we I believe we do so on the backdrop of a charism we already were gifted through the Holy Spirit.

I believe this is correct, yes. There are things that indicate the vocation is present at the very outset, even if they are not yet fully developed at that time. A vocation is not like a pretty coat that we procure for ourselves and then put on; it’s not like an organization that we choose to join out of the blue and then mold ourselves to.

If we were already Franciscans we wouldn’t need to be there.

This is exactly backwards. The main event is not getting accepted, although that’s important. It’s living the grace of the vocation out in fidelity. A Franciscan needs to be there and that’s why fraternal community is so very important. (I’ve learned this the hard way, so I know this.)

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

This is exactly backwards. The main event is not getting accepted, although that’s important. It’s living the grace of the vocation out in fidelity. A Franciscan needs to be there and that’s why fraternal community is very important. (I’ve learned this the hard way, so I know this.)

Yup. We are there to support each other. One month I am supported, the next I support. You can not be a Franciscan “at large” (anymore)*

• although I do believe that there probably should be exceptions. I feel badly for people that live hours away from the nearest fraternity

 

[iloveangels]

Yup. We are there to support each other. One month I am supported, the next I support. You can not be a Franciscan “at large” (anymore)*

• although I do believe that there probably should be exceptions. I feel badly for people that live hours away from the nearest fraternity

With technology now, that’s less of an issue for people who are professed and have to move away to a place where they would be hours away from a fraternity, etc. And for people who are home-bound due to illness or old age.

And you know, sometimes that’s how new fraternities are founded, when a few professed people move to an isolated area and take up fraternal communion with people in the new area who have a vocation also.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

With technology now, that’s less of an issue for people who are professed and have to move away to a place where they would be hours away from a fraternity, etc. And for people who are home-bound due to illness or old age.

True, but I am afraid that the “you have to attend meetings” restriction still stands, as far as I know.