Shame on us

[Texan77]

I am troubled by the Catholic Church leadership in regards to the Social Justice outreach - it seems to me that our leaders do not quite understand our role as a Church vs the governments role.

Our Church has made it clear that - Health Care is right

That is fine and it seems that our American laws are in line - for if anyone who needs emergency care in this country - whether citizen or not - whether covered by insurance or not… by law must be treated. We also provide medicaid for those who cannot afford health insurance and or cannot be covered by a traditional health care insurance plan…

So I do not understand the debate - if the Church continues to push for health care reform through the current house and senate - private health insurance would come to an end as we know it - the majority of our citizens who have taken a job for benefits over salaries would lose one of the biggest benefits which they have - health insurance benefits …

Why not put more energy in actually raising money to provide health coverage to those who cannot afford it? To those who are stuck with medicaid as their only current option?

And who and what are we debating?

Are we debating with the quote on quote catholics in the house and senate to support the Churches view of Pro Life ? These people are not Catholics

I understand quite clearly that the road to heaven is the hard road, the one with the narrow gate and few will attain it - likewise I understand that the road to hell is the easy one.

If the healthcare bill passes we will have federally funded abortions - after all our current democratic “catholics” are pro choice and every one of them is pushing for it - likewise our current President told us that if his daughters “made a mistake” he would push them to have an abortion…

I believe the Catholic Church has an opportunity to say no - and to understand that within a society we have three pillars

1. Individual / Family
2. Community / Church
3. Government

If the Catholic Church understood these pillars of society - what an awesome opportunity to evangelize and actually save souls - for if it is true that the road to heaven is the hard one - what in the world are we doing debating what is right and what is wrong with secular society - and why do we continue to call on these so called “catholics” to support our pro life agenda.

 

[06convert]

I think healthcare is right. We should all be able to get healthcare.

Health insurance? That’s a dfferent story.

 

[jjdrury81]

That is fine and it seems that our American laws are in line - for if anyone who needs emergency care in this country - whether citizen or not - whether covered by insurance or not… by law must be treated. We also provide medicaid for those who cannot afford health insurance and or cannot be covered by a traditional health care insurance plan…

A couple of things to start with. Access to emergency room services can hardly be called ‘healthcare’. In addition to being detrimental to the individuals without healthcare, this also puts undue burdens on taxpayers and the entire healthcare system. This is exactly why the majority of doctors support either a public option or single payer system.

In addition, Medicaid comes no where near providing health insurance to all of those that can not afford it. That is simply not true.

Also, your entire premise is faulty

So I do not understand the debate - if the Church continues to push for health care reform through the current house and senate - private health insurance would come to an end as we know it - the majority of our citizens who have taken a job for benefits over salaries would lose one of the biggest benefits which they have - health insurance benefits …

There is absolutely nothing in any of the bills currently before the house or senate that would lead to the end of private health insurance. In fact, conservatives (both republicans and democrats) have watered down these bills to such an extent that we may not even get a public option.

Are we debating with the quote on quote catholics in the house and senate to support the Churches view of Pro Life ? These people are not Catholics

I am glad that you are comfortable and confident enough to declare that those that disagree with you are not Catholics. But this has absolutely nothing to do with health care reform.

If the healthcare bill passes we will have federally funded abortions - after all our current democratic “catholics” are pro choice and every one of them is pushing for it - likewise our current President told us that if his daughters “made a mistake” he would push them to have an abortion…

Again, not true.

 

[Texan77]

A couple of things to start with. Access to emergency room services can hardly be called ‘healthcare’. In addition to being detrimental to the individuals without healthcare, this also puts undue burdens on taxpayers and the entire healthcare system. This is exactly why the majority of doctors support either a public option or single payer system.

In addition, Medicaid comes no where near providing health insurance to all of those that can not afford it. That is simply not true.

Also, your entire premise is faulty

There is absolutely nothing in any of the bills currently before the house or senate that would lead to the end of private health insurance. In fact, conservatives (both republicans and democrats) have watered down these bills to such an extent that we may not even get a public option.

I am glad that you are comfortable and confident enough to declare that those that disagree with you are not Catholics. But this has absolutely nothing to do with health care reform.

Again, not true.

I disagree 100% of everything you have stated above - it is false and it is a lie

 

[royal_archer]

I think healthcare is right. We should all be able to get healthcare.

Health insurance? That’s a dfferent story.

no one disagrees with health care being a right as in the goverenment can not prevent someone from receiving health care but something being a right does not equate to forcing others to pay for it. After all I have a right to bear arms but that does not mean the government is responsible for providing me an endless supply of ammo.

 

[royal_archer]

A couple of things to start with. Access to emergency room services can hardly be called ‘healthcare’. In addition to being detrimental to the individuals without healthcare, this also puts undue burdens on taxpayers and the entire healthcare system. This is exactly why the majority of doctors support either a public option or single payer system.

Don’t discount the profit motives of doctors. They will be much better off when more individuals are forced to pay more for medical care and will be forced to pay for more medical care than they, as individuals, need. Sort of the same thing as the auto industry supporting the cash for clunkers program.

In addition, Medicaid comes no where near providing health insurance to all of those that can not afford it. That is simply not true.

Also, your entire premise is faulty

While medicare alone does not provide a safety net for all of the needy it provides a piece of the overall net that does provide coverage for all who are truly needy.

There is absolutely nothing in any of the bills currently before the house or senate that would lead to the end of private health insurance. In fact, conservatives (both republicans and democrats) have watered down these bills to such an extent that we may not even get a public option.

What it does is puts an unresasonable strain on those private companies by forcing them to provide coverage at unsustainable levels while making them compete against a subsidized government program. This unfair competition will likely force many private companies out of business.

I am glad that you are comfortable and confident enough to declare that those that disagree with you are not Catholics. But this has absolutely nothing to do with health care reform.

• per: "If the healthcare bill passes we will have federally funded abortions "*
  Again, not true.

This is true.

 

[jackinbox]

Are there any Catholic countries (meaning where the population is predominantly Catholic) that do not have socialized health care? I’m not asking to provoke, just curious. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Are there any Catholic countries (meaning where the population is predominantly Catholic) that do not have socialized health care? I’m not asking to provoke, just curious. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

While Australia is not exactly a Catholic country… 1/3 of the population is Catholic, the largest single Christian denomination, with Anglican(Episcopalian) coming a close second.

The original Obama proposal was an almost direct copy of the Australian system. The private health care funds are doing just fine, the additional tax on wealthy people who don’t take out private insurance sees to that. It’s not a perfect system, but pretty good, and rather better than what the US has now.

However, the original proposal has had so many changes, and is so complex and convoluted as the result, that I don’t know if it’s workable now. I do know that both sides of politics have been lying through their teeth about it.

Zoe

 

[Texan77]

Are there any Catholic countries (meaning where the population is predominantly Catholic) that do not have socialized health care? I’m not asking to provoke, just curious. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

Italy - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Italy
Ireland - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

 

[ahollars]

Are there any Catholic countries (meaning where the population is predominantly Catholic) that do not have socialized health care? I’m not asking to provoke, just curious. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

Brazil, in fact I’d say that all of South America is without social medicine, with Brazil being the wealthiest among them.

 

[futboladikt86]

Hi texan77. I’m not american but I’m interested in this health care reform debate.

If the healthcare bill passes we will have federally funded abortions - after all our current democratic “catholics” are pro choice and every one of them is pushing for it - likewise our current President told us that if his daughters “made a mistake” he would push them to have an abortion…

If the Catholic Church understood these pillars of society - what an awesome opportunity to evangelize and actually save souls - for if it is true that the road to heaven is the hard one - what in the world are we doing debating what is right and what is wrong with secular society - and why do we continue to call on these so called “catholics” to support our pro life agenda.

I believe the reason why the Catholic Church continues to call on these “catholic” politicians is because it is our duty to defend those innocent lives. Once we stop to fight against abortion in this health care reform, we may be guilty of the sin of omission. Our God-given consciences are telling us to fight for those unborn people. If this reform gets approved, then atleast we have showed God that we have done something for Him at that debate. May God bless you!

 

[Bluegoat]

That is fine and it seems that our American laws are in line - for if anyone who needs emergency care in this country - whether citizen or not - whether covered by insurance or not… by law must be treated. We also provide medicaid for those who cannot afford health insurance and or cannot be covered by a traditional health care insurance plan…

This seems to be rather misleading to me. First of all, because treating an emergency in an ER does not actually mean returning the person to health. They can be ejected as soon as the “emergency” is averted, without addressing the real problem, without any hope that it can be addressed.

And of course the person will be billed, which unless he or she is really homeless and has nothing to lose, can be devastating.

It isn’t clear to me how you want your system to work. Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church provide health care, or private charities? If so, what would you suggest to make sure they are actually able to accomplish this?

 

[Bluegoat]

Are there any Catholic countries (meaning where the population is predominantly Catholic) that do not have socialized health care? I’m not asking to provoke, just curious. I can’t think of any off of the top of my head.

What do you mean specifically by socialized health care. I notice that people suggested Italy, Ireland, and Brazil, all of which have universal health care of one kind or another.

 

[royal_archer]

This seems to be rather misleading to me. First of all, because treating an emergency in an ER does not actually mean returning the person to health. They can be ejected as soon as the “emergency” is averted, without addressing the real problem, without any hope that it can be addressed.

And of course the person will be billed, which unless he or she is really homeless and has nothing to lose, can be devastating.

It isn’t clear to me how you want your system to work. Are you suggesting that the Catholic Church provide health care, or private charities? If so, what would you suggest to make sure they are actually able to accomplish this?

Maybe we need to deal with the reasons why someone do not have health insurance. For instance, hold people accountable and demand that they get jobs. For those who choose not to work (eg not severly disabled) add the cost of their insuance to their debt and let the courts treat them as we would any other debter. If someone refuses to do this allow medical facilites to deny all treatment other than that required to stabilize them. (eg don’t force everyone to have all their insurance paperwork with them 24/7 incase of an accident.) Remember that the main reason people are unable to afford health insurance is because they have not made it a priority in their lives. Those who are physically disabled should receive charity and those who are mental disabled should receive guardians. everyone else should stand on their own two feet.

 

[royal_archer]

What do you mean specifically by socialized health care. I notice that people suggested Italy, Ireland, and Brazil, all of which have universal health care of one kind or another.

“Universal” as in providing for people in other countries? Problem solved.

 

[Bluegoat]

“Universal” as in providing for people in other countries? Problem solved.

I am not sure what you mean?

Universal health care means that health care is in some way provided to all citizens or residents. The question was, which Catholic countries do not provide socialized health care, and is that term is often used by people interchangeably with universal health care - but sometimes is used differently.

In answer to the question, people suggested Italy, Brazil, and Ireland. All, however, are considered to have universal health care.

Which made me wonder what the person who asked the question meant, and those who answered it.

 

[royal_archer]

I am not sure what you mean?

Universal health care means that health care is in some way provided to all citizens or residents. The question was, which Catholic countries do not provide socialized health care, and is that term is often used by people interchangeably with universal health care - but sometimes is used differently.

In answer to the question, people suggested Italy, Brazil, and Ireland. All, however, are considered to have universal health care.

Which made me wonder what the person who asked the question meant, and those who answered it.

Universal would mean providing health care for the whole world. Nation would be providing health care to the nation. The reason I bring this up is that there is amovement to force Americans to pay even more for the health care of people in other countries.

 

[jackinbox]

Italy - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Italy
Ireland - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

From your link regarding Ireland:
Wikipedia:

All persons resident in Ireland are entitled to receive health care through the public health care system, which is managed by the Health Service Executive and funded by general taxation. A person may be required to pay a subsidised fee for certain health care received; this depends on income, age, illness or disability. All child health and maternity services are provided free of charge as is emergency care.

Everyone living in the country, and visitors to Ireland who hold a European Health Insurance Card, are entitled to free maintenance and treatment in public beds in Health Service Executive and voluntary hospitals. Outpatient services are also provided for free. However some people, mostly high-income earners, may have to pay subsidised hospital charges.

That sounds much more socialized that what is currently before the U.S. Congress.

As for Italy, they have a single-payer health care system that is paid from taxation. Again, much more socialized than the current bill. In Italy, unfortunately the taxpayers even pay for abotrtions. From Time magazine:
Time Magazine:

The uproar is over the future of Italy’s controversial abortion law passed in 1978. The measure allows women over 18 to have an abortion at state expense in the first 90 days of pregnancy. Some 200,000 legal operations now take place annually in specially designated, state-run hospitals.

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,951678,00.html

 

[jackinbox]

While Australia is not exactly a Catholic country… 1/3 of the population is Catholic, the largest single Christian denomination, with Anglican(Episcopalian) coming a close second.

The original Obama proposal was an almost direct copy of the Australian system. The private health care funds are doing just fine, the additional tax on wealthy people who don’t take out private insurance sees to that. It’s not a perfect system, but pretty good, and rather better than what the US has now.

However, the original proposal has had so many changes, and is so complex and convoluted as the result, that I don’t know if it’s workable now. I do know that both sides of politics have been lying through their teeth about it.

Zoe

Thanks for the info. So, Australia has a “public option” in addition to optional private insurance? I did a bit of reading about the Australian system and that is what it sounded like. Is the Government health insurance paid for by monthly premiums or through taxes?

 

[jackinbox]

Brazil, in fact I’d say that all of South America is without social medicine, with Brazil being the wealthiest among them.

I guess it depends on your definition of socialized medicine. Only 16% of the population have private insurance. The rest are on the Government system.