Shame

[Carol_Coombe]

It seems to be a common practice that if someone stands up against Islamic violence, they themselves get pilloried by Christians who don’t understand anything about Islam.

I hope people pray for the courage to stand up for truth. Your argument (replied to above) shows a gross misunderstanding of history and Islam.

Not too, that no where do I urge violence against Moslems. I find it quite amazing that someone who simply chooses to engage people in debate is seen as vile, but the Moslems who promote such evils - well you make excuses for them.

If it would help you, and anyone else, I will give you a list of references from my personal library relating to the history and religion of Muslims. This is not information off the internet, but reasoned books by Muslims and Christians, as well as novels and tracts.

 

[Montalban]

The fact that I am not Muslim is not devoid of fact. I am a would-be convert to RCC.

I don’t say you’re a Moslem.

You are knowledgeable, or else you have done your homework quickly. Probably knowledgeable.

Frankly I come against this apology so often that I have a file of citations from the Koran, hadith, Islamic web-sites etc that simply shows people who have your ideas simply got them from someone who misrepresents Islam, and probably, in all honesty believe that everyone wants to be as nice and peaceful as yourself.

I NEVER tire of meeting with arguments such as yours. I used to think such was a form of cultural cringing where people were embarrassed that Christianity was successful in spreading its message.

However, you’re more than welcome to take your time and introduce any facts you want.

But you know perfectly well that we will find the same kinds of historical and scriptural facts - and that these have been laid out for us time and time again. Dawkins the Egregious points out for example just how awful our God seems to be in the OT. I have set up a thread on this to garner opinions and evidence, as a matter of information.

This is a strange argument to make. You’re saying that Dawkins had made a false comparison, so therefore all comparisons must equally be false. Let’s actually judge things by their merits.

I’ve drawn a connection between Islamic teachings and their behaviours. The fact that Dawkins can’t do this with Christianity doesn’t negate my argument at all. Dawkins is patently against all religions anyway. Even ostensibly peaceful ones such as Buddhism and Jainism.

Muslims are not evil; Christians are not evil. Neither are they absolutely good. They are people.

I agree that people are not necessarily evil. However some seek to lower themselves by following the tenets of evil

You must surely agree that there are ideologies that are repugnant. This is what I’m judging. Islam, and those that properly follow it.

 

[Montalban]

If it would help you, and anyone else, I will give you a list of references from my personal library relating to the history and religion of Muslims. This is not information off the internet, but reasoned books by Muslims and Christians, as well as novels and tracts.

I could list my books too, and call them reasoned.

However rather than work off commentators from outside of Islam - such as the apostates Ibn Warraq, or Abdul Saleeb, I’ve chosen to offer up here Islamic works, and commentary by Moslems.

You’ll note I’ve cited Koran, and Hadith, and Islamic expert sites.

 

[Montalban]

More on Islam and non-Moslems. Although this deals with marriage, the implications of ‘mixing’ with non-Muslims still arises…

"Question: What is your advice concerning some Muslim minorities marrying disbelieving women who do not believe in the existence of a Creator and what is the effect of that upon the children?

Response: My advice to all Muslims is that they should not marry anyone who is not a Muslim.

fatwa-online.com/fataawa/muslimminorities/0000822_5.htm

It is not permissible to attend wedding parties that involve evil actions, such as singing that is accompanied by music or that includes indecent words. The fact that this is widespread among people does not mean that it is permissible and should not be denounced.

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=45789&ln=eng

"Ibn Timiyya emphasizes forcefully in Volume 14,

“Nothing in the law of Muhammad states that the blood of the disbeliever is equal to the blood of the Muslim because faith is necessary for equality. The people of the Covenant (Jews or Christians) do not believe in Muhammad and Islam, thus their blood and the Muslim’s blood cannot be equal. These are distinctive texts which indicate that a Muslim is not to be put to death for (murdering) one of the people of the covenant or an unbeliever, but a free Muslim must be killed for a free Muslim, regardless of the race” (Vol. 14, p. 85)."

amefufuka.com/islam/btv4.php

(this is not an Islamic site)

 

[blessedtoo]

What’s the deal here? Start a new thread if you wish to discuss Islam.

To the OP, Carol, Mirdath (I will adress u later!) and others who have felt acrimony from CAF;

As a member for the last three years and an embarassingly frequent poster, I have to say that those of us who have been around for awhile and who love the faith, sometimes get a tad jaded by the relentlessly hostile and deliberate opposition we see here regularly. While internet discussion is not an ideal way to interperet people’s true motivation, we do develop a keen sense of what a person who comes to CAF is trying to achieve. Often, it is only to provoke, criticize, demean, humiliate, convert, strut, and show-off. Sometimes a new poster will begin posting with swagger and arrogance but calm down after a few go-arounds. Others approach more humbly, with a clear and earnest desire to learn and debate. If posters encounter hostility, it is often because they have approached the forums with a know-it-all platform. For old-timers, that can get tiresome.

OTOH, there are a few members who can’t seem to self-edit but if a new member hangs around long enough, they will learn who to avoid and not engage with those who seek only to do battle rather than debate.

My suggestion is to alert the mods if someone has been uniquely offensive or abusive. If it’s general unpleasantness, avoid those who lean in this direction and seek to engage with those who want real communication.

Mirdath,
I know at least two of the examples you have cited are grossly exaggerated because I was on those threads. No one compared you to Hitler (they were referring to the fact that more deaths occured under atheist regimes like Hitler’s) and the pedophile comment was in response to a discussion about the “instrisic disorder” of homosexuality and pedophila. Let’s be honest about our experiences here.
And let’s not forget - you give as good as you get. I was there during your much mod-edited discourse with RyanL!

 

[Mirdath]

Sorry blessedtoo, but I was personally compared to Hitler (and not favorably), and the pedophile comment was in a thread about Tarot cards, not long after I joined, and the thread had nothing to do with sexuality. I really wish it were not so.

 

[Montalban]

What’s the deal here? Start a new thread if you wish to discuss Islam.

It’s to do with the OP insofar as the OP believes that comments made here are not ‘charitable’, whereas I believe some are right on the money.

 

[didididi]

Hi,

I haven’t read all of this thread, but I’d just like to say a few things…this isn’t directed at anyone in particular (I haven’t been around here long enough to know anyone anyway).

I think sometimes when a hot issue comes up on this forum the argument can get a bit too personal or unnecessarily harsh. I know it’s really hard to have self control, especially when you know you’re correct and the person who you’re conversing with is using seemingly illogical arguments or you think that they’re only giving half the truth / lying …or they say something offensive, etc. whatever. What you have to keep in mind is that although you may be correct, it serves little purpose spreading truth to those who do not know it if you do so in a manner which offends the other person, or for whatever reason results in them not being receptive to it.

I don’t mean to sound condescending… especially as I’m probably one of the younger members on this forum…but yeah…just my $0.02.

 

[Montalban]

I believe the general trend of this thead is that if you criticse some religions, you’re being un-Christian, and un-charitable.

I hoped to show, in one case anyway, that such criticism is justified, as it’s the truth.

Jesus was never about denying the truth.

For those that believe that the truth could at least be sugar-coated, then they must also realise that a debate forum is simply about ideas. No one’s forcing people to read the posts.

 

[Mirdath]

Check out how many threads on Aisha there have been.

Every time someone raises the issue of Muhammad’s child bride we get a swathe of embarrassed relativists apologising to Moslems for having ‘insulted’ them by mentioning what they believe in.

Wasn’t Mary supposed to be around 12 or 13 when she conceived an out-of-wedlock child with God and married another man? Tsk tsk.

Oh, by the way…
JCPhoenix's blog:

Those who practice the occult, such as faery doctoring, reiki, and other New Age “religions” do not serve God, and they carry a special sort of poison. I equate them to pedophiles, for they work from another agenda which is not compatible with the protection of the souls of delicate and vulnerable children. It is not compatible with the delicate faith of adults who have not recieved proper catechesis and can be so easily lead from their faith by the likes of Greg and Ms. Ross.

JCPhoenix:

Mirdath ~ I don’t expect YOU, of all people, to be happy with my declaration…after all, you are in the clutches of Satan and your divination with his cards. And yes, I stand by what I said…the damage done to souls via such methods is just as damaging as the abuse done to children. After all, we are spiritual children and the evil one wants nothing more than to rape and destroy our souls…as he as raped your own. And you are only so angry because deep down, you KNOW this is true.

 

[dolphinlove]

Wasn’t Mary supposed to be around 12 or 13 when she conceived an out-of-wedlock child with God and married another man? Tsk tsk.

Mary is the chosen virgin and had the privilage to give birth to Jesus our saviour. And for the record, she wasnt 12 or 13, it is unknown how old she really was.
God chose her because she was without sin and was the most special. She was married to Joseph who was to be the earthly father to Jesus.
And if I was you, i wouldnt be saying such things about God, but since you did, I would get down on my knees and beg for his forgiveness, and while your at it, Jesus and Mary’s forgiveness.

 

[Booklover]

No I am not a Muslim. But even if I were, that religion is worthy of respect. You know that the apparent fight for independence of outside interests, and the fanatical right, do not represent the true faith of Islam (or read Karen Armstrong). Some of your perceptions may have been politically skewed, and perhaps need some review.

Atrocities are committed every day, but Islam is “worthy of respect”! Are you serious? PC gone mad. Islam teaches hatred and intolerance towards non-Muslims.

Here’s a list of the intolerant teachings of the Quran:
faithfreedom.org/Articles/quran_teaches.htm

Violent Islam is the true Islam!

You may claim not to be Muslim, but your comments speak loudly. Mentioning Karen Armstrong is a complete giveaway since she’s an apologist for Islam.

Vickie

 

[Imryl]

Wow Mirdath.

Clearly he has no clue. It’s people like that I’d enjoy being put in a locked room with.

He’d recognize the difference very quickly.

 

[Vaclav]

Islamic violence pre-dates western imperialism. It pre-dates the creation of the USA, in fact, it dates from the Koranic days where Muhammad urged people to murder, and lie.

Well that’s just blatantly obvious isn’t it? Imperialism came much later, but why fight over “who started it?” That seems terribly juvenile.

As for Muhammed urging murder, I seem to recall that the Jewish people weren’t all that lenient on the people of Jericho were they? What happened to the children and women of that city (with a notable exception)?

It is easy to pick and choose lines from any religious text that cast it in a bad light.

I hoped to show, in one case anyway, that such criticism is justified, as it’s the truth.

No, it is your point of view mixed with a large degree of acrimony and provincialism.

 

[cestusdei]

None that you can be bothered to look for, apparently. I linked some in your last thread that got locked.

Since you asked, I’m going to have to say it’s you. Do you post about anything other than Muslims and Mormons, and perhaps other people you hate that I’ve missed?

Yeah I am so mean. When was the last time I beheaded someone and shouted God is Great or encouraged others to do so?

 

[cestusdei]

No I am not a Muslim. But even if I were, that religion is worthy of respect. You know that the apparent fight for independence of outside interests, and the fanatical right, do not represent the true faith of Islam (or read Karen Armstrong). Some of your perceptions may have been politically skewed, and perhaps need some review.

Nor would we like to have the same factionalism within the Christian community, and that is what many of us work for.

Maybe they could respect our faith. For example by not butchering Christians and enslaving them in Sudan or beheading them in Saudi Arabia or burning churches in Indonesia…Maybe they need to review their faith.

 

[Jayda]

hola

i do not mean to interrupt your debate… i just wanted to say i think some excellent points have been made on both sides and i think this is a situation where the middle ground is also the most appropriate thing…

islam is not the Holy Catholic Church… so therefore it is imperfect, we should not expect perfection from it, as a way to condemn but we should also not overlook its dark qualities, as a way to accept.

i think that we should continue discussing islam as it is, and not deliberately turn our backs to the good or bad parts of it. we should promote the teachings which are good, and in line with Catholic dogma, and we should investigate and define its bad teachings so that none are lead astray and those who are astray can be called back.

specifically investigating the bad teachings is a sore point for muslims and an opportunity to commit the sin of acting without love toward somebody who is different than us, as well as other sins like pride.

even though muslims feelings will be hurt by considering the darker side of islam, there is absolutely no reason we should not do this with care and avoid taunting, polemical jabs, insults and arrogance. sadly many of the threads we have in this section bring up very important questions, like the age of aisha, in completely inappropriate ways… like demanding that all muslims believe in child molestation or giving no consideration to their suggestions she might not have been nine.

this is not appropriate behavior for Catholics and even though the idea of exposing the dangers of following false beliefs is noble, the manner in which some have chosen to go about this is very ignoble.

let us spend more time thinking about how we say things. and let us also spend more time listening to muslims about what they believe, and not dictate their beliefs to them.

we do not have to believe they are right, but listening is always important.

gracias,
Dominus Vobiscum

 

[Valke2]

hola

i do not mean to interrupt your debate… i just wanted to say i think some excellent points have been made on both sides and i think this is a situation where the middle ground is also the most appropriate thing…

islam is not the Holy Catholic Church… so therefore it is imperfect, we should not expect perfection from it, as a way to condemn but we should also not overlook its dark qualities, as a way to accept.

You don’t really believe you get perfection from the Catholic Church, do you? Certainly, we can agree that the Church has made mistakes in the past?

Is there any institution on earth that we expect perfection from?

I do not mean to take the wind out of the rest of your post, which raises some valid points.

 

[Mirdath]

Mary is the chosen virgin and had the privilage to give birth to Jesus our saviour. And for the record, she wasnt 12 or 13, it is unknown how old she really was.
God chose her because she was without sin and was the most special. She was married to Joseph who was to be the earthly father to Jesus.
And if I was you, i wouldnt be saying such things about God, but since you did, I would get down on my knees and beg for his forgiveness, and while your at it, Jesus and Mary’s forgiveness.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say: Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances. The marriage was preceded by the betrothal, after which the bride legally belonged to the bridegroom, though she did not live with him till about a year later, when the marriage used to be celebrated. As for the rest of my post, that is how it happened according to the gospels, no? Jesus was conceived out of wedlock and then his mother married someone who wasn’t the father.

Throwing rocks isn’t a good idea if you’re living in a glass house yourself.

 

[Jayda]

You don’t really believe you get perfection from the Catholic Church, do you? Certainly, we can agree that the Church has made mistakes in the past?

Is there any institution on earth that we expect perfection from?

I do not mean to take the wind out of the rest of your post, which raises some valid points.

hola

si, the Church is perfect and it is right to expect perfection, it is an institution on Earth but it is an institution by God… which is why it is perfect

que Dios te bendiga