Shame

[cestusdei]

mirdath, your own hadith and scholars say she was nine. You don’t have to accuse Joseph of anything, just muhammed.

publisher, yeah I am so mean that I don’t think it’s right to marry nine year olds, my bad. You ask if a 30 year old marrying a 12 year old is okay. I will answer that. NO! I have a 12 year old niece and if some 30 year old tried to marry her he would find himself in jail pretty quick. Unless my brother caught him, in which case he would be luck to survive. I guess we are a bit strange when it comes to things like that. Unlike progressives and muslims.

 

[Publisher]

mirdath, your own hadith and scholars say she was nine. You don’t have to accuse Joseph of anything, just muhammed.

publisher, yeah I am so mean that I don’t think it’s right to marry nine year olds, my bad. You ask if a 30 year old marrying a 12 year old is okay. I will answer that. NO! I have a 12 year old niece and if some 30 year old tried to marry her he would find himself in jail pretty quick. Unless my brother caught him, in which case he would be luck to survive. I guess we are a bit strange when it comes to things like that. Unlike progressives and muslims.

I wouldn’t use the word “mean”, but I would use the word “hateful” concerning your posts. I would also call you rude…but then you know your posts are rude, arrogant, hateful and inflamatory…you have designed them to be so, haven’t you?

I have a 14 year old niece, and would raise quite a stink if she were to be “married off”…we live in different times…you cannot judge cultures of by gone eras with 21st century sensiblilites.

Fact, decades ago in much of our countries undeveloped parts, life was hard…surviving to 35-40 was quite old…young girls reaching puberty were married quite young…it also was a by gone era…today’s standards did not apply…to judge life in those harsh and brutal times by todays standards simply cannot be done.

My mom’s sister married at 13, she had her first child at 14, my uncle was 16. They were migrant laborers…they lived in tents and followed the harvest…they were poor in many ways…they’ve raised 4 children, the oldest is now 53…all well educated with excellent careers. She would have “locked her daughter up” before she would have let her marry at 13…my aunt was not a child at 13, she had already taken care of the youngest of her siblings…and buried some of them…in a shoe box behind the barn of an uncle’s farm.

Times change…our understanding of those times must be kept in perspective.

 

[cestusdei]

Okay, I have taken your tack before. I challenged muslims to agree that marrying a nine year old today was wrong. Not to judge the past, but just to say from here on out. Know what they said? Nothing. They would not agree. Why? Because muhammed was perfect to them and to agree means he was wrong. In muslim countries today child marriage is common because of muhammeds example. You don’t believe me? Then start a thread and ask them. See how many agree.

Is it more hateful to protest the persecutions of Christians at the hands of muslims or to get mad at me for mentioning it? You are more upset at my “rudeness” then you are at murder. That is pretty hateful in my book.

 

[cpayne]

mirdath, your own hadith and scholars say she was nine. You don’t have to accuse Joseph of anything, just muhammed.

publisher, yeah I am so mean that I don’t think it’s right to marry nine year olds, my bad. You ask if a 30 year old marrying a 12 year old is okay. I will answer that. NO! I have a 12 year old niece and if some 30 year old tried to marry her he would find himself in jail pretty quick. Unless my brother caught him, in which case he would be luck to survive. I guess we are a bit strange when it comes to things like that. Unlike progressives and muslims.

Whether or not “mean” or “rude” applies, I don’t know. I am, however, pretty good at spotting when people miss the point rather spectacularly–and this post spectacularly misses Publisher’s point.

 

[cestusdei]

I used to be very different in dealing with muslims. I was rather nice. Then I began to read more and more about what they do to Christians. I watched a video of them hacking the head off of a man. I waited for muslim protests. I asked for muslim protests. And got nothing. I am unconcerned about being “nice” anymore. No one forces you to read my posts. Everyone is free to bury their heads in the sand.

I remember the same reactions in college when I went after communism. I was regarded as mean for doing it. We should just send them flowers…Now after the fall of communism we see even more clearly how evil it was and how it persecuted Christians. Yet still none of my former college classmates have told them “hey we were wrong, they were brutal and evil, you were right, we should have protested against them.” I think it will be the same after islamicism falls.

Note that publisher is a Quaker, They are pacifists. I knew many Quakers and they were the worst at protesting against the US and ignoring what the communists were doing. History repeats itself.

 

[apriltherese]

I have been on this web site for a few months now and I am very saddened at how My fellow Catholics have acted. I have read time after time the name calling and the utter hatred to our fellow man because of either a different stance on Christ our beloved savior or Islam. What did Christ say about loving your fellow man? What did Christ say about loving your enemy? What did Christ say about the most important commandment was? Finally, When Our Lord And Savior was on the cross, what did Christ ask for to Our Father and Maker. FORGIVE THEM FATHER FOR THHEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. I love being Catholic. I believe that I am in the one true church and that what the Church teaches and what Christ our savior taught is the only truth. This is why I am very sad at what some of my fellow Catholics have said and I am sorry for all of them. I know, there are those who condem us and do evil deeds to us now. Jesus himself went through much pain to save us. I only ask you my fellow Catholics to pray for others. Put down your sword and pray that they may one day Find the true church and follow Christ fully. God bless and I will be praying with you.

THANK YOU! I’ve witnessed some unbridaled (and totally misplaced) hostility towards Muslims and it makes me so sad. I never seemed to know what to say or where to jump in, but I wanted to speak up so many times… I know our admin have a pretty big job, but I wish they were more dilligent in this matter (thanks for the work you do, btw, admin).

 

[Mirdath]

cestusdei:

Okay, I have taken your tack before. I challenged muslims to agree that marrying a nine year old today was wrong. Not to judge the past, but just to say from here on out. Know what they said? Nothing. They would not agree. Why? Because muhammed was perfect to them and to agree means he was wrong. In muslim countries today child marriage is common because of muhammeds example. You don’t believe me? Then start a thread and ask them. See how many agree.

Asking them as the faithful what they think of their scripture? Yeah, that’ll get a lot of results – same as if I asked a Christian or Jew about incest in Genesis (it was okay for Adam and Eve’s children and for Lot and his daughters), the customs of marriage at the time of Jesus’ birth, and so on and so forth (sadly when one brings up the ravishing of Canaan the usual Christian reaction is ‘hell yeah, we really showed em!’). Is all that okay in modern society? Of course not! Was it okay then, considering it’s your holy book and the acts were sanctioned by your god? Well, er, uh…

I used to be very different in dealing with muslims. I was rather nice. Then I began to read more and more about what they do to Christians. I watched a video of them hacking the head off of a man. I waited for muslim protests. I asked for muslim protests. And got nothing. I am unconcerned about being “nice” anymore.

‘I used to be sane and a decent person’. If you’d care to actually open your eyes and look, you’d see plenty of Muslims condemning what the fanatics have been doing. Yet you’d rather hate one and a half billion people?

Note that publisher is a Quaker, They are pacifists. I knew many Quakers and they were the worst at protesting against the US and ignoring what the communists were doing. History repeats itself.

Nixon was a Quaker, you know?

If all I had in terms of religious guidance were you and Publisher, I’d be signing up at the Society of Friends this very minute. Minus Nixon, I don’t see a single thing wrong with the Quakers – pacifist, pro-human rights, pro-education, a deeply personal yet community-oriented spirituality; sure, I can get behind that. You? Not so much.

Seriously, I can’t believe you’re slinging your dung at the Quakers now. It’s hilarious and shameful.

 

[Kevin42]

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

-1 Corinthians 13:4-8

 

[cestusdei]

Asking them as the faithful what they think of their scripture? Yeah, that’ll get a lot of results – same as if I asked a Christian or Jew about incest in Genesis (it was okay for Adam and Eve’s children and for Lot and his daughters), the customs of marriage at the time of Jesus’ birth, and so on and so forth (sadly when one brings up the ravishing of Canaan the usual Christian reaction is ‘hell yeah, we really showed em!’). Is all that okay in modern society? Of course not! Was it okay then, considering it’s your holy book and the acts were sanctioned by your god? Well, er, uh…

‘I used to be sane and a decent person’. If you’d care to actually open your eyes and look, you’d see plenty of Muslims condemning what the fanatics have been doing. Yet you’d rather hate one and a half billion people?

Nixon was a Quaker, you know?

If all I had in terms of religious guidance were you and Publisher, I’d be signing up at the Society of Friends this very minute. Minus Nixon, I don’t see a single thing wrong with the Quakers – pacifist, pro-human rights, pro-education, a deeply personal yet community-oriented spirituality; sure, I can get behind that. You? Not so much.

Seriously, I can’t believe you’re slinging your dung at the Quakers now. It’s hilarious and shameful.

You can prove me wrong by stating that it is wrong to marry nine year olds. I am sure you like Quakers. They won’t fight back. I don’t know any muslim pacifists. I would be happy if you joined them, go right ahead. Btw, I prefer Reagan over Nixon.

 

[Mirdath]

You can prove me wrong by stating that it is wrong to marry nine year olds.

I believe it is wrong to marry nine-year-olds; I also believe it is wrong to marry twelve-year-olds, thirteen-year-olds, and fourteen-year-olds. Further, I believe that since I wasn’t around to witness either Mohammed’s marriage to Aisha or Joseph’s marriage to Mary, I’m unqualified to pass specific judgment on either case considering the only sources for each are highly-questionable religious documents unfit for use as historical sources in such miniscule, specific instances which smack more of legend than chronicle.

And in the general instance, I’d note that neither were definably pedophilia or ephebophilia as child-marriage was the norm or at least a norm, not a paraphilia or fetish, and remained so until at least the 17th century throughout Eurasia. Criticize one culture’s history for that, and you’ll have a lot of looking at your own to do. In short, you’re being a moral relativist here, holding Islam to a different and much stricter standard than you do Judaism or Christianity. Nice going.

I am sure you like Quakers. They won’t fight back. I don’t know any muslim pacifists. I would be happy if you joined them, go right ahead. Btw, I prefer Reagan over Nixon.

I would think that ‘they won’t fight back’ is more a reason for you to ‘like’ them, no? How about trying to behave more like them and like your own Christ?

By the way, ‘pacifist’ does not mean ‘spineless’. Quakers have no need of fighting – they try to win before it starts, by being wiser, more charitable, more human than anyone else in the battle. It’s when they come to blows that they’ve lost. Just look at how they handled slavery as vocal, staunch, even subversive, but peaceful abolitionists.

 

[cestusdei]

I am glad you agree muhammed was wrong to marry a nine year old. I put a poll up, but so far no muslims have taken it. This is their chance to prove us wrong.

I am not a pacifist. I see how Christians are treated by muslims. We have had to fight back for over a thousand years. If it hadn’t been for battles like Lepanto there would be no Quakers or any Christians. They enjoy their freedoms because others fight for them. It would be nice to be a pacifist. How about you muslims go first?

 

[kellie]

cestusdei,

A Muslim agreeing that marrying a 9 year old is wrong, is like a Christian saying incest is wrong.

Both are in our respective holy books.

So of course a Muslim isn’t going to say out loud “yes cestusdei, marrying a 9 year old is wrong”, as it goes against the holy book they believe in.

Same as if I say out loud “incest is wrong”, someone can chuck the Bible at me, and say “well God allows it in here”.

These statements cannot be made with lots of clarification, and you don’t seem to want to allow Muslims to have the clarification needed.

You want them to only say 8 words - “marrying a 9 year old girl is wrong”, and I am sorry but it can’t be done no matter how much you loathe the practice.

 

[dolphinlove]

The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say: Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances. The marriage was preceded by the betrothal, after which the bride legally belonged to the bridegroom, though she did not live with him till about a year later, when the marriage used to be celebrated. As for the rest of my post, that is how it happened according to the gospels, no? Jesus was conceived out of wedlock and then his mother married someone who wasn’t the father.

Throwing rocks isn’t a good idea if you’re living in a glass house yourself.

Im not living in a glass house honey! My point was the birth of Jesus was a miracle from GOD, you know, the holy father that created us all!!!
And im for one am not going to argue the miracle of my Lord. How and when Mary was married is irrelevant in this particular case since Jesus was the immaculate conception. And so what if Joseph married her after she was pregnant, the point is she was carrying the SAVIOUR, Gods very own son!
Back then, if a woman was pregnant to another man and was about to be married, it would have been frowned upon, but not Mary, as I said, she was carrying Jesus, THE son of God, so when she married Joseph, she was still a virgin, so in the eyes of the Lord, she has not sinned, so therefore, the point your trying to make is irrelevant.

 

[Montalban]

Nine-year-olds are often capable of conception – in fact, there was a case quite recently in which a man named William Edward Ronca raped and impregnated a nine-year-old. He pleaded guilty in 2006.

Even if this were true, just because a 9 year old *can *conceive, does this mean she should?

 

[Montalban]

However, looking at the historical evidence, at least from the Roman Empire of the time, we see that life expectancy was less than 30 years (as opposed to 75 or thereabouts now, at least in the US). That means that women were introduced to marriage and child-bearing much earlier than is the case now. I assume that, as in Africa, any woman would have become marriagable on achievement of puberty, on first menarche (menstration). That would be at about 12-14, or earlier given the life expectancy at the time, for which the body clock would have made adjustment.

This is irrelevant. I know you want to keep giving relativist apologies for Muhammed, but Moslems would acknowledge an argument themselves that suggests that their prophet’s behaviour was right for that time ONLY.

That’s why I cited islamic advice sites of today. They’re not saying “We could marry 9 year olds then, but things have changed”.

You’ve still not addressed directly any of the evidence I’ve given from Islamic sites. The best you’ve offered was a non-Moslem, Karen Armstrong, and that you have a ‘list’ somewhere of books which somehow contain evidence you evidentally don’t wish to present here. In other words you’re suggesting ‘go research this subject until you find the evidence that agrees with me’ as a rebuttal.

 

[Mirdath]

Back then, if a woman was pregnant to another man and was about to be married, it would have been frowned upon, but not Mary, as I said, she was carrying Jesus, THE son of God, so when she married Joseph, she was still a virgin, so in the eyes of the Lord, she has not sinned, so therefore, the point your trying to make is irrelevant.

No, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. It wasn’t a sin, because it was inspired by God according to Christian scripture. Same with whatever Mohammed did, according to Muslim scripture.

Montalban:

Even if this were true, just because a 9 year old can conceive, does this mean she should?

Already answered: no. Same with twelve-to-fourteen year olds. Come to think of it, there are plenty of 30-year-olds and up who really shouldn’t reproduce.

 

[Montalban]

Already answered: no. Same with twelve-to-fourteen year olds. Come to think of it, there are plenty of 30-year-olds and up who really shouldn’t reproduce.

Cool

In Islam they argue that once a female can begin to have children, she should be treated as a woman, for the purposes of marriage.

 

[dolphinlove]

No, that’s exactly the point I’m trying to make. It wasn’t a sin, because it was inspired by God according to Christian scripture. Same with whatever Mohammed did, according to Muslim scripture.

Its not the same at all, Mary was a VIRGIN and was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus. The biggest honour of all.
Mohammed had SEX with a 9 year old child.

 

[Jayda]

Same as if I say out loud “incest is wrong”, someone can chuck the Bible at me, and say “well God allows it in here”.

hola

i think it is important to make a distinction between our prophets and muslims prophets… we do not believe our prophets, kings and patriarchs are perfect. they committed sins (like Lot did), and sometimes broke God’s commandments and had to atone for it (like King David). a mere account of something happening in the bible does not make it moral, if when read in proper context it is clearly described as a sin and later there was punishment or atonement for it.

Dominus Vobiscum

 

[Mirdath]

Montalban:

In Islam they argue that once a female can begin to have children, she should be treated as a woman, for the purposes of marriage.

It’s not a unique viewpoint. The onset of menses was considered the start of womanhood all over the world – including, for what it’s worth, in plenty of European cultures. Neither modern-day Muslims nor modern-day European and American Christians practice child marriage (at least, one would hope not); if you’re going to accuse them of wickedness for past practices, you condemn yourself just as much.

Its not the same at all, Mary was a VIRGIN and was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus. The biggest honour of all.
Mohammed had SEX with a 9 year old child.

I am speaking of Joseph, who as Mary’s husband quite possibly had sex with her; indeed, he’d be expected to just as other older husbands of twelve-year-old girls were. I have plenty of issues with a deity choosing to impregnate a child, sure – but I’ll accept for the sake of argument that her virginity was not violated by that (although unless one buys the ‘ray of light’ thing, childbirth itself would have broken her hymen).

Jayda:

a mere account of something happening in the bible does not make it moral, if when read in proper context it is clearly described as a sin and later there was punishment or atonement for it.

David sinned by lust and was properly punished. Incest was practiced among the children of Adam and Eve, between Abraham and Sarah (half-siblings), between Lot and his daughters – and nowhere condemned or punished by God, though Lot’s sons/grandsons turned out to be Ammon and Moab.