A
- Status
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Iām over 30, Iāve been repeatedly told by people who know me that I sound like an old man (more correctly- āYou censored and complain like a grumpy old manā or āquit acting like a grumpy old manā), I have more and more grey hair, and Iāve actually yelled at kids for being on my lawn. If I donāt qualify as āoldā, Iām sure Iāll grow into it.
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
-That Congress has actually passed laws about Sharia (it hasnāt)
-That states passing laws about Sharia somehow means Congress has (it doesnāt)
-That all Muslims in uniform somehow are guilty of crimes of other Muslims in uniform and therefore donāt have a productive record to speak of (it doesnāt and the idea that it does is offensive and dishonors those in service who are serving honorably and are Muslim)
-That I somehow think Sharia is a myth (I donāt)
-That the usage of the civil law aspects of Sharia (similar to such usages we now have with Jewish and Christian religious laws for civil matters) is somehow impossible and even if it were possible, Congress has already made such usage illegal (it is possible, and no Congress hasnāt)
-And if you dig far enough back- The peaceful means by which Muslims are changing society to better fit their values has to be stopped because Islam has ever only won through violence and conflict (or in other words if we assume that Islam has ever only won via violence and conflict we for some reason shouldnāt encourage Muslims to use peaceful means to shape society since we know said peaceful means wonāt work; or in even simpler words- stop using logic to try to understand the argument).
-Oh, almost forgot, I also apparently think Sharia is a myth
T
TEPO
Guest
Well Iāll be darned. I had you figured as a WW2 vet.Iām over 30, Iāve been repeatedly told by people who know me that I sound like an old man (more correctly- āYou censored and complain like a grumpy old manā or āquit acting like a grumpy old manā), I have more and more grey hair, and Iāve actually yelled at kids for being on my lawn. If I donāt qualify as āoldā, Iām sure Iāll grow into it.
. I thought you were really, I mean really old. Iām stunned. You might be younger than me, Iām 37.Iām glad to hear it though.
T
TEPO
Guest
W
WilT
Guest
I agree. As many other cultures have done before, they have had to adjust to the American ways of life and not the other way around.
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
And if you read my full comment youāll see youāve taken that portion out of context. Thatās actually not my position, nor is the failure of logic as to why the peaceful means by which Muslims adjust society to better fit their values and beliefs needs to be stopped, namely because Islam has never been able to use peaceful means successfully in the past to shape society. One would think that if one thought as the poster who put forth both of those arguments- Islam has only ever succeeded through violence and conflict, and the peaceful reshaping of society by Muslims needs to be stopped- that one would support Muslims using peaceful means to reshape society since it apparently wouldnāt succeed.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Again, you falsify my posts to justify your negative character towards my post. I never said the above as you falsely presented my comment above. Here is my quote; ā**Oldcatholicguy believes Shariah law to the op is a myth **and need not be a concern in the U.Sā
Read the op please, then apply your view. You lie, when you state I said that you believed āthat shariah is a myth?ā
For the record; Regarding Shariah law. Do you Oldcatholicguy believe that Shariah law is an attempt to derail our judicial system?j
This is the whole context of my posts as it relates to the discussion.
What Muslims have to do with you honoring them as military personnel is not part of this discussion, nor does any state or federal laws passed or not passed, has anything to do with the discussion except; that law makers have made Shariah law a reality and not a myth to derail our judicial system.
Do you deny that our law makers never make new laws to outlaw Shariah law in the U.S? regardless if the new laws passed were at the state level or the federal level. Laws have passed. I know you repeated, for me to bring up any federal laws. I mentioned I have not pursued your requests, due to the updated laws and judicial rulings of the passed laws against Shariah laws. All other matters you mentioned are not subjects relating to the OP.
In any case our law makers have taken Shariah law to be a threat to derail our judicial system, otherwise the lawmakers would of never attempted to pass laws against Shariah law.
Now if you have anything further to add to this discussion without insults against my intellect and character. I would be happy to debate with you. But there is no need to deceive or bash posts contents with false interpretations.
peace be with you
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Oh, Iām very sure that someone isnāt being honest in this discussion, but since my nose isnāt growing I know its not me. As for insulting you, pointing out your ignorance on Sharia, how American governance actually works, and how the American legal system works isnāt a insult. Itās me pointing out your ignorance on these subjects. No, an insult would be where one person claims the other person is lying. Kind of like what you are doing above. Or placing the blame of the bad acts of some members of a group onto all the members of a group. Kind of like what youāve done regarding military personnel who are Muslim. But hey, look on the bright side, at least you donāt have to also look up the definition of insult while educating yourself on all those other items Iāve mentioned.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Stick to the topic please;Oh, Iām very sure that someone isnāt being honest in this discussion, but since my nose isnāt growing I know its not me. As for insulting you, pointing out your ignorance on Sharia, how American governance actually works, and how the American legal system works isnāt a insult. Itās me pointing out your ignorance on these subjects. No, an insult would be where one person claims the other person is lying. Kind of like what you are doing above. Or placing the blame of the bad acts of some members of a group onto all the members of a group. Kind of like what youāve done regarding military personnel who are Muslim. But hey, look on the bright side, at least you donāt have to also look up the definition of insult while educating yourself on all those other items Iāve mentioned.
For the record; Regarding Shariah law. Do you Oldcatholicguy believe that Shariah law is an attempt to derail our judicial system? What is your professional opinion?
Law makers have made Shariah law a reality and not a myth to derail our judicial system.
Do you deny that our law makers never make new laws to outlaw Shariah law in the U.S?
I see no reasonable purpose to pursue your federal law requests, due to the fact of the updated laws and judicial rulings of the passed laws against Shariah laws.
In any case our law makers have taken Shariah law to be a threat to derail our judicial system, otherwise the lawmakers would of never attempted to pass laws against Shariah law.
I believe I have answered the OP considering all things posted. Do you agree with me or disagree with me, oldcatholicguy?
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Islam does succeed by using fear, threat, death against anyone who opposes or reject Islam. Who thinks Islam has not succeeded?And if you read my full comment youāll see youāve taken that portion out of context. Thatās actually not my position, nor is the failure of logic as to why the peaceful means by which Muslims adjust society to better fit their values and beliefs needs to be stopped, namely because Islam has never been able to use peaceful means successfully in the past to shape society. One would think that if one thought as the poster who put forth both of those arguments- Islam has only ever succeeded through violence and conflict, and the peaceful reshaping of society by Muslims needs to be stopped- that one would support Muslims using peaceful means to reshape society since it apparently wouldnāt succeed.
Can you give a historical example anywhere in the world where Islam has succeeded without violence, war, death and only be peaceful means?
If Islam rules by both secular and religious laws which is a contradiction in itself. How can Islamās sharia law not be an attempt to derail any existing judicial system?
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
-Stick to the topic? You mean your insults toward me are somehow on topic?
-No Sharia law isnāt an attempt to derail our legal system because, and this might shock you, it wasnāt designed to challenge our legal system. In fact, and you may want to sit down for this one, it existed hundreds of years before our legal system was even created. Perhaps if you bothered to do some basic research on Sharia you would find out that it is a poorly defined (as in not all Muslims and Muslim scholars agree what it is) set of criminal and civil laws based on the religious teachings of Islam. Being such it is as much of an attempt to derail the US legal system as is Jewish religious and Christian religious laws; which means its not.
-Law makers havenāt actually made Sharia a reality because, and once again here you conducting basic research on the topic would be helpful for you, Sharia is Islamic and Islamic theology was created and largely refined prior to the 13 colonies even being founded and, you might want to prepare yourself for another shock, our law makers here in the US, yeah canāt actually pass religious laws let alone create a religious system of laws like Sharia.
-And no, I donāt deny that some lawmakers on the federal level have tried to introduce bills to outlaw Sharia (which according to another version of your position doesnāt actually need to take place since existing law would result in Sharia being unconstitutional) or that some states have passed such laws which have either been struck down by the SC or are currently being challenged as unconstitutional.
-You donāt see any purpose in me continuing to mention federal law because you havenāt bothered to do some basic research on how American governance works. You see, the federal level of government trumps the state and local (which is trumped by the state level) levels of government when it comes to who gets to declare whoās laws unconstitutional. Every single state in the US could pass a law outlawing Sharia (which according to the other version of your argument arenāt actually necessary in the first place), but if these laws are declared unconstitutional on the federal level- drum roll- they are invalid.
-I also keep bringing up the federal level because earlier in this thread you told me you werenāt my instructor on this matter and that I needed to look up what Newt had done. Faced with such ignorance I decided that you need to understand why Iām very thankful you arenāt my instructor on matters concerning Sharia, American governance, and the American legal system.
-As for your last concerning law makers deeming Sharia to be a threat, nice assumption. Weāll ignore the fact you are basically calling said law makers idiots because your other version of this discussion (the one in which such laws arenāt needed because pre-existing laws would make Sharia unconstitutional), and just focus on the fact that you think politicians are solely supporting or passing such laws based on them deeming Sharia to be a threat. dumblaws.com/
T
TEPO
Guest
Well, its just one or the other. You cant have both. There clearly needs to be a seperation of mosque and state.
m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30601662
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Sharia law is never Christian or Jewish religious laws, how you attempt to compare them on a par is irrelevant, because we are not discussing Christian or Jewish law here.
Where Sharia law is practiced today in Muslim predominated societies have derailed any judicial law that was in effect prior to Islam taking over a pre-existing society.
Where in the world did you get the idea that our law makers would pass any religious laws? Again, you are neglecting the reality of Islam Sharia law it enforces civil penalties on civilians by criminal law.
Secondly; Do you deny that the U.S Constitution can have laws added or existing laws changed by majority vote? If you say yes? then you contradict yourself. If you say no, you live in world of fiction.
And the only reason I mentioned law makers passing laws outlawing Sharia law, proved my point that, our law makers sought to raise the conscience of U.S law so as not to allow shariah law to derail our judicial system, and that our law makers see sharia law having this potential to derail our judicial system, when you appear to know more about law than our lawmakers.
In summary all my postās reflect the fact that our lawmakers made an effort to prevent sharia law from ever derailing our judicial system, that is all. This effort by U.S law makers to outlaw sharia law only proves sharia law has the potential to derail any civil law in any country including the U.S constitution by majority vote.
Your point only proves my point, that sharia law posed a threat to derail our judicial laws when our U.S lawmakers (from at least 32 states passed anti-sharia laws) saw it necessary to raise the U.S conscience and made an effort to outlaw sharia law.
As ironic as it sounds, your comment only supports my position.
Apparently you learned something of my updates from Judicial rulings and Constitutional law, because you are using them which supports my position again, granted with your twisting of words and false assumptions of calling our law makers idiots because the reality of them passing anti-Sharia law was fruitless. Sorry but I donāt see our law makers passing anti-sharia laws as being idiots, as you have declared. Pre-existing laws need not be duplicated by Constitutional laws, is a new judicial finding not my opinion, I hope we are clear here, you give me too much credit on this topic.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I agree. But where does that leave Islam practiced by Muslims in the U.S who practice Islam according to sharia law? Do you think a Muslim cleric is going to call the police department if a Muslim violates sharia law, which mandates a criminal penalty? This is the conundrum for practicing Muslims of Islam according to sharia law in the U.S.
Especially when Islam of sharia law includes both civil laws (state) and religious laws. If practiced silently by Muslims in the U.S, sharia law according to Islam supersedes all existing civil laws. This is a derailing of the U.S judicial system.
Maybe a true Islamic practicing, Quran following Muslim living in the U.S can give a comment on how Sharia law is practiced in the U.S or whether it is not?
H
HolyCrusader007
Guest
I did not say that you suggested that Muslims want to impose Sharia law. I was merely saying that Most Muslims, and Most Jews in the USA do not want to override the current system of law. If they did, there would be havoc in the streets if the USA.
Iād imagine your thinking of Nadal Hassan, a Muslim American who served in the USA military who was also a terrorist. Byron De LA Beckwith, a Christian American who served in the USA military was also a terrorist, Beckwith was responsible for the murder of civil rights leader Medger evers.
That said, many American Christians and American Muslims serve honorably in the USA military,
youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KAw2Oi2no
In todayās diverse Army, Soldiers come from different backgrounds and different religious faiths. Being among those who practice your faith makes a big difference when your deployed Staff Sgt. Jose Ibarra tells us about U.S. Soldiers who are Muslim Americans and are deployed to (KAF) Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Given the above internally disconnected and sometimes self contradictory comment can I assume your next step is to revert to your poorly programed translation software approach of non-answering my points (like you did in the other thread I was trying to have discussion with you on. The gem for your sudden inability to articulate in English approach from that thread would be your comment- āRe-read post #52 very slowly. I have answered your negative respond towards a War warrior in Mr. Woods with my positive response about Mr. Woods being a War Warrior.ā forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=924797&page=4)
That aside, I have an idea. Why donāt you clearly state your position now and actually stick with your position. That way I donāt have to go through the effort of citing how your position has radically changed (from Congress passing laws, to states passing laws, to they donāt need to pass laws, back to Congress and states passing laws) or how it contradicts itself- you objection to Muslims using peaceful means to change society and your claim that Islam hasnāt succeeded in using just peaceful means which would invalidate your objection to Muslims using peaceful means or how you seem very happy to sling insults upon others and then take offense at imaginary slights. So why donāt you do us all a favor and actually clearly state your position and not change it down the road after its been invalidated. Think you can manage that?
O
oldcatholicguy
Guest
Careful, you keep objecting to his points and you too will join the āso you must think Sharia is a mythā club. I, apparently, am the current president of the club.
W
WonderAndAwe
Guest
So Sharia Law is basically Satanism like anything else that poses a threat to the Catholic Faith?
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
You say āMost Muslimsā, what is the status of Muslims who donāt make your "Most Muslim " list? What is your statistic report of the minority of Muslims as to sharia law and terrorism?
What about the army soldier who converted to Islam, had multiple army members killed in search for this soldier who left his guard post on base unprotected, Later was traded for his release back to the U.S for three known Alqeada terrorist leaders? The only way to cause a great nation to fall, is to cause the fall from within by slowly cracking the foundation of what makes that nation great not to exclude our military and Constitution.
I respect your opinion here. I do not judge any single Muslim or majority or minority of Muslims actions. My whole premise here only deals with Islam itself not Muslims. Islam not Muslims is what I relate to sharia law and what it teaches about practicing deception and lieing is considered a good virtue in Islam. All these examples of the select few members of Islam, have practiced the virtue of deception in Islam which makes terrorism an effective weapon against free societies.
That is why I hold the opinion that sharia law in Islam, where Islamic members are in majority enforce sharia law which derails all civil existing laws.
The U.S is not immune to this fact in the long term.
I tend not to judge any actions taken by Muslims. When the interpretation of Islam is the main concern for Muslims and terroristsā groups. In the U.S there has been ruthless acts of murder and terror. When a murderous act is done in the name of Islam or any religion, separates itself from Christian and Jewish murderers today. Would be my case in point, not the Muslim in particular.
- Status