Sharia Law comes to Dearborn!

[j1akey]

I was born and raised in the detroit metro area and after seeing that video I’m glad I don’t live there anymore if that’s the way things are. When I moved away several years ago that’s the way things seemed to be going even back then. I’m not a fan of any religion but I have to side with the Christians on this one.

That being said, when I did live there it seemed like the older generation just wanted to live their lives and work and make money for their family. The younger generation (my generation) had this huge attitude like the world owed them something and would gang up on anyone who even looked at them the wrong way.

 

[greggy53]

I was born and raised in the detroit metro area and after seeing that video I’m glad I don’t live there anymore if that’s the way things are. When I moved away several years ago that’s the way things seemed to be going even back then. I’m not a fan of any religion but I have to side with the Christians on this one.

I can certainly see why you back the Christians on this one…The Christians will let you be an athiest, and live in peace, but the Muslims will whack your head off if you don’t bow to the muslim God… Islam should not be recognized and given the protection of a religion in this country. It’s a hate group and should be treated just like any other hate group.

 

[sedonaman]

Excuse me, but since when is it any Christian’s fault how Islam is interpreted by Islamic scholars? This makes NO sense at all. It’s not as though Jakasaki is making any of this up; that’s the point of emphasizing that it came from an Islamic site: this is what MUSLIMS say their faith is about. If any Christian or other non-Muslim dispels the warm ‘n’ fuzzy (a.k.a. fake) vision of Islam that many Muslim posters here try to convince us is the “true” Islam, it is for the benefit of everyone involved, not for the radicalization of any Muslim who previously lived in denial about their scripture. Jakasaki didn’t write the Qur’an of that tafsir.

We Christians have no stake in the continuation of Islam. It is entirely and only Muslims’ fault if they have any problem with their own scripture, with public reception of their bullying tactics (as in the video), or any other problem they try to pass off as the fault of others with the help of tepid apologists such as yourself.

Not that I don’t agree with you in one respect: I too think that is the responsibility of Christians to work for peace with our Muslim and other non-Christian neighbors. I am not about to hold my breath waiting for any sort of reciprochal statement from Muslims concerning their own responsibility to do the same with regard to us, though. Not when they can’t even apparently deal with questions without resorting to threats and violence. That kind of behavior deserves no respect or goodwill at all.

Respect and goodwill are a two-way street. and I’m tired of the B.S. excuses and deflection of responsibility on the part of Muslims who don’t feel they should to behave like decent human beings to non-Muslims. Sadly, this attitude is borne of and re-enforced by the Qur’an. Again, this is no Christian’s fault. We don’t ask to be threatened, murdered, treated like second class citizens, and condemned to hell by Islam.

:extrahappy: Amen, baby. Well put, especially the last paragraph about their being eternal members of the Victim Industrial Complex.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Islam should not be recognized and given the protection of a religion in this country. It’s a hate group and should be treated just like any other hate group.

The irony is that the political winds are blowing the other way … anyone who criticizes Islam is guilty of a hate crime.

 

[greggy53]

The irony is that the political winds are blowing the other way … anyone who criticizes Islam is guilty of a hate crime.

Thats because the powers that be in this country, and their cronies in the media hate the Jews and Christians more.

 

[libby060]

Has there been any legal action taken as regards the incident on video? Where do things stand now?

Moderate Muslims are of much greater number than the violent radical branch. But there is no security in that. Moderate Muslims are not known for disagreeing with or refraining the violent ones. They too fear them.

 

[Acts17]

What if his interpretation of those passages is different from yours? I think that’s what he’s getting at by quoting Paul – the meaning that Muslims generally attach to those verses may not be the meaning that you attach to them. You can mislead people by taking quotes out of context.

I still don’t know what you mean when you say “taking quotes out of context.” For two of the passages, there is no context. They’re Hadith that say, perfectly clearly, that Muhammad’s mission was to fight people who do not recite the shahada. As for the other passages, the context only confirms what the passages say. Did you even read what I said? You’re acting as if any quotation, no matter how clear, can be interpreted any way the reader wants to interpret it.

Apart from this, for Muslims, the criterion of interpretation is Muhammad. What did Muhammad do when he received 9:29? He raised an army and attacked the Byzantines.

So what do we have here? The verses are clear. The context is clear. The historical background is clear.

My question for you would be this: What would Muhammad have to say before you would be willing to admit that he called his followers to violence? As things stand, it seems that it doesn’t matter what Muhammad said. You will simply say, “Oh, well, everything is open to interpretation.” That’s true, in a sense. A Muslim could interpret these passages to mean that he’s supposed to eat lots of Jello. But as for Muhammad’s meaning, that’s perfectly clear.

 

[qui_est_ce]

If we must avoid the “I-know-some-bad-Muslims-hence-all-Muslims-are-bad” stereotype, we should likewise avoid the “I-know-some-good-Muslims-hence-Islam-is-good” mistake.

sedonaman-
That is a great post. I’ll tuck that into my repertoire. I always get the “The Muslims I know wouldn’t do that.” They think it’s an Arab cultural thing.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Well I can’t prove you wrong, since you have your Islamic site there. I just hope that there are moderate Muslims who do not take “war” literally – and if there are such, then I hope they aren’t pushed by people like yourself and Acts17 into accepting the more scary version of the surah because you have convinced them this is the “real” Islam.

Certainly my Muslim neighbors do not seem interested in making war on me. I will have to ask them what they make of this surah.

I think it’s important that Christians should work for peace and not sow dischord and strife if possible.

If you want peace, work for justice. Justice cannot exist outside of Truth. Truth is not relative.

Neville Chamberlain is a prime example of someone who did not seek Truth before seeking peace. It didn’t last and the consquences were 9 million civilians dead within 5 years, a country and a people destroyed. Millions of lives that could have been spared. The Germans were perfectly nice neighbors to their Jewish neighbors. Heck, my uncle married a Jewesse and they had a son. Then they had to go underground on Kristalnacht. My nice German grandfather hid them on his farm. They were lucky. They made it.

Then Hitler’s army moved to France. All the French people on the wrong side of the Maginot Line had to flee to the south of France. My mother was one of them. When they went back to their town, their house was take over by the Germans as a command post and barracks. My mom said they were nice guys, not the monsters they had fled. My mom’s family cooked for them. They always said thank you.

When the Americans came, her town was liberated from the nice Germans and they got to be French again.

Oh, and those nice Germans put her brother, the priest, in a concentration camp for several years.

 

[sedonaman]

sedonaman-
… I always get the “The Muslims I know wouldn’t do that.” They think it’s an Arab cultural thing.

We like to think religion and culture are two separate things. Do they realize that Islam is the culture?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Are you serious when you say this? There is no one country that is under Sharia law? Not Afghanistan, Iran, neither Saudi Arabia, nor Morocco?

In Christ,
Andrew

Movr along here, nothin’ to see.

 

[sedonaman]

…
Moderate Muslims are of much greater number than the violent radical branch. But there is no security in that. Moderate Muslims are not known for disagreeing with or refraining the violent ones. …

What is a “moderate” Muslim? What defines moderate? There are two references for moderation. Sounds like your reference is “nice.” A moderate is a nice person [Muslim] who won’t harm a kafir (an unbeliever).

But we are talking about a Muslim, so the only valid reference for moderation is Islam, not “nice.” It is the model of Mohammed who determines what Islam is. So if a Muslim imitates the Sunna of Mohammed, then he is moderate. Sunna is the words and deeds of Mohammed, the perfect pattern for all Muslims.
…
What does “radical” mean? Killing, robbing, enslaving, assassination, torture, deceiving, jihad? As long as those behaviors occur with the kafirs on the receiving end, they are all acts that were performed by Mohammed. If Mohammed did them, then they are not radical. Mohammed defines the middle of the road – normative behavior. – Warner, “Refuting Counter-Terrorism Dhimmitude”

When talking about Islam and Muslims, you have to have an English-Islam dictionary in one hand. As one poster observed, Muslims use the same vocabulary, but the words have different meanings.

For example, endless time has been wasted patronizing the notion that both sides should work for “peace”. We assume that “peace” means the same to them as to us – i.e., the absence of war. But peace to a Muslim means everyone submits to Islam. It comes from their postulate that the world is divided into the “House of Islam” and the “House of War.” The “House of War” is everything that is not Islam. The same could be said for “justice” – their concept of justice is Islamic “justice” which I guarantee is not based on the idea that everyone is made in the image and likeness of God.

To the extent that a large number of Muslims are “nice”, they are not practicing their “religion” [and I use the word in a brooooaaaaaad sense].

So now, what is a “moderate” Muslim?

 

[dzheremi]

sedonaman-
That is a great post. I’ll tuck that into my repertoire. I always get the “The Muslims I know wouldn’t do that.” They think it’s an Arab cultural thing.

I’ve heard this sometimes too. When I respond with examples like the Abu Sayyaf (Philippines), Eritrean Islamic Jihad, and other non-Arab Islamist movements, people tend to reply “well, those cases can all be traced back to political repression, so it’s still not religious/not about Islam”. Riiiiight. The political repression of 50% of the population that is Muslim (in the case of Eritrea), when it’s Patriarch of the Eritrean Orthodox Church, Abune Antonios who is under house arrest at the order of the government while that same government provides aid to Islamists in Somalia in an effort to oust the Somali government! Right, that political repression of Muslims! You know, the kind that funds Islamists while persecuting Christians.

Or maybe they mean like how in the Philippines, where the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao is the only region in all of the Philippines (7,107 islands total) that has its own autonomous government. Yep, it sure sounds like they’re being oppressed in the Philippines, too…I mean, the army has the audacity to come after the Islamist groups just because they commit bombings, kidnappings, and extortion! What Islamophobes!

!حيث الإسلام ، وهناك أيضا الإرهاب

 

[qui_est_ce]

We like to think religion and culture are two separate things. Do they realize that Islam is the culture?

Well, the problem is, St. Louis is a settlement for Bosnian Muslim refugees. There is a lot of sympathy for them because of the way they were treated by the Serbs. Many have had their whole families wiped out by Christian Serbs. They are hard-working. The 2nd generation has moved out of their “ghetto” and into suburbia.

Also they are not as obvious in their worship. But I do talk and question the one I know. I don’t think he knows the Koran very well, just his 5 prayers, and I don’t think he even does those all the time.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Well, the problem is, St. Louis is a settlement for Bosnian Muslim refugees. There is a lot of sympathy for them because of the way they were treated by the Serbs. Many have had their whole families wiped out by Christian Serbs. They are hard-working. The 2nd generation has moved out of their “ghetto” and into suburbia.

Also they are not as obvious in their worship. But I do talk and question the one I know. I don’t think he knows the Koran very well, just his 5 prayers, and I don’t think he even does those all the time.

My father actually served in Bosnia for a while with the peace-keeping force that went in after the treaty was signed. He was positioned in a DMZ in the middle of a town split between Serbs and Bosnian Muslims. His experience was that most Bosnian Muslims are about as religious as most American “Christians” are - they drank alcohol, they ate pork, the women didn’t wear hijabs, etc. And yeah, they did have horrible things happen to them under Serbian militia. I often have to argue with my Orthodox brothers and sisters who think the Serbs were completely clean of any guilt.

Of course, as I said “Christians,” one could say many of the Bosnian Muslims were more “Muslims” than Muslims.

 

[famdigy]

So what do we have here? The verses are clear. The context is clear. The historical background is clear.

shortly after the battle of the trench was over, the Prophet (pbuh&hf) surrounded by his companions advised them in the following prophecy “Oh fellows of Muhajireen (Immigrants) and Ansaar (Helpers), I’m going to entrust you with a will and obligate you with an order, memorize them. Indeed Ali ibn Abi Talib is your commander after me and my successor among you, my Lord entrusted me with this, and if you don’t honor with him my will and not aly yourselves with him and nor help him, you will disagree among yourselves in your rulings, and the matters of your religion will be in commotion, and the most evil ones among you will be in charge of your affairs.”
Source: Tabrasi, Al-Ihtijaj Vol 1, page 99.

He also said “Among you is a man who will fight for it’s interpretation just as I have fought for it’s revelation”, the prophet (pbuh&hf) was asked who is that man?, he answered “The one fixing his Shoe” meaning Ali Ibn Abi Talib
Source: Majlisi, Bihar Al-Anwaar vol.32, page 293

In another hadith the Prophet (pbuh&hf) said “This Ali is with the Qur’an and the Qur’an is with Ali, they will never seperate from one another until they return to me at the fountain…”
Source: Majlisi, Bihar Al-Anwaar vol.22, page 223 & Al-hakim, Mustadrak vol.3, page 124

The delta of all 3 hadiths narrations is that Ali(as) will have the correct interpretation of the Quran and his antagonists will be in a state of confusion and commotion about their religion.

There are two interpretations of Surah 9:29. Ali’s (as) antagonists believe the verse is unconditional and it was revealed to abrogate the previous verses which enjoin Muslims to treat the Jews and Christians well
Quran 2:83 “…and speak kindly to mankind…” In extremes of Sunnism like the salafis/wahabis, they see that killing all non-believers and spreading Islam through conquests as legitimate and permissible
See this video youtube.com/watch?v=X1UrmP6dHn4 at 0:50-1:13

The other interpretation of Surah 9:29 that’s adhered to by Ali’s(as) partisans is that the verse is unconditional and did not abrogate the ones before it. Allama Taba’Tabai makes the argument against abrogation in his commentary of Surah 2:83

“The sentence enjoins them to speak nicely to the people; it is an in*direct way of ordering them to maintain good social relations to behave with people nicely, gently and good-mannered - no matter whether the opposite party is a believer or an unbeliever. It cannot be said to be abrogated by the verse of fighting, because the two verses are not contradictory to each other; the place and time of social contact is other than the place and time of fighting. For example, using hard words when admonishing a child to correct his behavior is not contrary to maintaining good social relation.”
Taba’Tabai, Al-Mizan commentary of Surah 2:83

Second, the verse is interpreted in light of other conditional verses. This is an important point.

Any command, even human commands can be given in one situation with a condition and then in another situation with no condition. For example, I can ask my kids to play outside if they’ve finished all their homework. At a different point in time I could ask them to play outside. This doesn’t mean they no longer have to do their homework before going out to play and it’s reasonable to ask them to play outside with the implied understanding they’ve done all their homework.

This is the case with the Quran, where the unconditional verse are interpreted in light of the conditional verses because we realize the true meaning of the verse is not unconditional

Example:
Qur’an 2:190 "Fight in the way of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors…
Qur’an 4:75 “Why is it that you do not fight in the way of God and the way of the deprived”

The conditions are self defense, or to help deprived and opressed people by fighting their oppressors.

The idea of the Prophet (pbuh&hf) arbitrarily raising an army to fight the Christians of Byzantium because he wants to convert them or kill them is plain false because it goes against the conditions for going to war. The Historical background to the battle with the Byzantium is because the emperor ordered the execution of the prophet’s emissary, in those days he held court in Mootah, a town east of the Dead sea. When the Prophet’s emissary, Harith bin Umayr, arrived at his court bearing the letter for him, he ordered his execution. The murder of Harith bin Umayr was an unprovoked outrage, and the killing of an ambassador is considered an unpardonable crime in many nations. The prophet decided to take punitive action.

When I first quoted Paul in 2 Corinthians 12:16, “But be it so, I did not burden you: being crafty,** I took you in by deceit**.” everyone jumped up and down because I had quoted it out of context, now I see some of the same people arguing against the Surah 9:29 without any knowledge. Come on guys, why the double standards?

Actually you’re not entirely at fault, I blame the first ones to who attempted to corrupt Islam, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Aisha, the Ummayads, and their pay-roll hadith forgers.

 

[tomarin]

Excuse me, but since when is it any Christian’s fault how Islam is interpreted by Islamic scholars? This makes NO sense at all. It’s not as though Jakasaki is making any of this up; that’s the point of emphasizing that it came from an Islamic site: this is what MUSLIMS say their faith is about. If any Christian or other non-Muslim dispels the warm ‘n’ fuzzy (a.k.a. fake) vision of Islam that many Muslim posters here try to convince us is the “true” Islam, it is for the benefit of everyone involved, not for the radicalization of any Muslim who previously lived in denial about their scripture. Jakasaki didn’t write the Qur’an of that tafsir.

The fact is there are a lot of different views about what is in the Qur’an among Muslims, just as there is a lot of different views about how to properly interpret the Bible. There is also no shortage of violent or offensive (by modern standards at least) stuff in the Qur’an (beat your wife when she disobeys, etc). I don’t see what is served by hostile non-Muslims cherry-picking those verses, & ignoring any that might have a different or more ambivalent message in order to posit an essential Islam that is violent and threatening. They think they’re telling it like it is, I think they’re simplifying something complicated (a religion, after all) in order to justify their aggressive stance.

We Christians have no stake in the continuation of Islam. It is entirely and only Muslims’ fault if they have any problem with their own scripture, with public reception of their bullying tactics (as in the video), or any other problem they try to pass off as the fault of others with the help of tepid apologists such as yourself.

No, but we have a stake (I hope) in telling the truth and being fair. That’s my only concern here. I’m sad that you think that makes me an apologist for something.

Not that I don’t agree with you in one respect: I too think that is the responsibility of Christians to work for peace with our Muslim and other non-Christian neighbors. I am not about to hold my breath waiting for any sort of reciprochal statement from Muslims concerning their own responsibility to do the same with regard to us, though. Not when they can’t even apparently deal with questions without resorting to threats and violence. That kind of behavior deserves no respect or goodwill at all.

Actually, I think some Muslim scholars did release just such a document last year.

Respect and goodwill are a two-way street.

Precisely. Does it foster respect and goodwill to disrupt some other religion’s meeting by going into it with a camera in hand and using Michael Moore-like tactics to embarrass them? Do you really think Acts17 had some other intention than that? Look at his website.

and I’m tired of the B.S. excuses and deflection of responsibility on the part of Muslims who don’t feel they should to behave like decent human beings to non-Muslims. Sadly, this attitude is borne of and re-enforced by the Qur’an. Again, this is no Christian’s fault. We don’t ask to be threatened, murdered, treated like second class citizens, and condemned to hell by Islam.

 

[tomarin]

Sadly, this attitude is borne of and re-enforced by the Qur’an.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true.

Again, this is no Christian’s fault. We don’t ask to be threatened, murdered, treated like second class citizens, and condemned to hell by Islam.

Ironically, I think that’s precisely what the people who set up polemical anti-Islamic websites want to do to Muslims, either here or abroad. That’s why I think it’s important to oppose them. I think they have more in common with the Third Reich (the m.o. being taking a fairly helpless minority, negatively stereotyping them and then scaring everyone about them in order to attain political goals) than the other way around. Not to split hairs, they’re demagogues.

 

[Sam_777]

That’s how Muslims treat Christians under Sharia Law.

Why do you expect them otherwise .
Who is afraid of the other side the Angel or the devil…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Friends,

As one of the people assaulted by Muslims during the filming, I would like to briefly respond to some of the comments.

(1) Under Sharia law (as has already been pointed out), Christians are not free to preach the Gospel. This can be seen in the “Pact of Umar,” an agreement the second Caliph made with Christians. Under the agreement, Christians couldn’t repair their churches, preach, wear crosses, possess houses taller than those of Muslims, etc.

(2) Sharia law possesses no concept of Christians, Jews, and Muslims living together in a permanent peaceful state. Muslims are only allowed to seek peace when they are not strong enough to fight. When they become dominant, the rules change. As Muhammad said in Sahih Muslim 4366, “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.”

(3) Someone has criticized us for distributing materials at a Muslim festival. Someone else has already noted that this wasn’t a Muslim festival. I would add that we weren’t distributing material at all. Our crime was simple. Muslims had a booth in which they invited people to ask them questions. We asked them a question, and they couldn’t answer it. A few minutes later, security was slapping us around.

I’ll leave Islam’s defenders with a few passages to carefully consider:

Qur’an 9:29—Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Qur’an 47:35—Be not weary and fainthearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost: for Allah is with you, and will never put you in loss for your (good) deeds.

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Allah’s Messenger said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me.”

Sahih Muslim 30—It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right, and his affairs rest with Allah.

You are correct, but I fear some people will never regard this true threat as such until it’s too late.