Sharia law

[joe370]

triumphguy - However the shoe is also on the other foot: if a woman is raped she needs four witnesses to prove that she is innocent, otherwise she could be guilty of immorality. We’ve seen cases in the news of women being whipped in public because they were raped, and they didn’t have 4 witnesses to prove they were doing nothing to incite the rape.

Riyadh (AsiaNews/Agencies) – A woman jailed after being raped could be lashed 100 times. Camille, an invented name, is a 35- year-old immigrant from the Philippines who has been in a Saudi jail since September 2009. As a result of her rape, she became pregnant, but miscarried because of harsh prison life.
Under Saudi Arabia’s rigid application of Sharia or Islamic law, sexual relations outside of wedlock are strictly forbidden, irrespective of whether the woman is consenting or not. In fact, rape is punished in accordance with rules laid down in the Qur‘an.

The woman’s mother told her story in an interview with GMANews.Tv. Last spring, Camille went to Saudi Arabia to work in a dental clinic to support her 5-, 14- and 15-year-old children. In August, a co-worker from Bangladesh raped her.

Knowing that extra-marital relations are punishable under Saudi law, she did not go to the police to file charges, and tried instead to leave the country and return to the Philippines.

During a routine medical examination that expatriates must undergo before leaving, doctors found that she was pregnant. An arrest warrant was issued against her and on 11 September 2009, she was locked up in Hafer al Baten Central Jail.

Because of the generally harsh conditions in Saudi prisons, Camille miscarried last December.

According to her mother, she is scheduled to go before the judges who could impose 100 lashes.asianews.it/news-en/Riyad…mes-17425.html
Quote:
The “Qatif Girl” Rape Case (Arabic: قضية اغتصاب فتاة القطيف‎) is a much-publicized gang-rape case. The victim was a teenage girl from Qatif (Eastern Province, Saudi Arabia), who, along with her male companion, was kidnapped and gang-raped by seven Saudi men in mid-2006. A Saudi Sharia court sentenced the perpetrators to varying sentences involving 80 to 1,000 lashes and imprisonment up to ten years for four of them. The court also sentenced the two victims to six months in prison and 90 lashes each for “being alone with a man who is not a relative” in a parked car.
Quote:
A Saudi judge has ordered a woman should be jailed for a year and receive 100 lashes after she was gang-raped, it was claimed last night.
The 23-year-old woman, who became pregnant after her ordeal, was reportedly assaulted after accepting a lift from a man.
He took her to a house to the east of the city of Jeddah where she was attacked by him and four of his friends throughout the night.

She later discovered she was pregnant and made a desperate attempt to get an abortion at the King Fahd Hospital for Armed Forces.

According to the Saudi Gazette, she eventually ‘confessed’ to having ‘forced intercourse’ with her attackers and was brought before a judge at the District Court in Jeddah.
He ruled she had committed adultery - despite not even being married - and handed down a year’s prison sentence, which she will serve in a prison just outside the city.
She is still pregnant and will be flogged once she has had the child.
The Saudi Arabian legal system practices a strict form of medieval law. Women have very few rights and are not even allowed to drive.
They are also banned from going out in public in the company of men other than male relatives.

Read more: dailymail.co.uk/news/arti…#ixzz25MA4HcNH

That is so awful!!! Makes me so sick thinking about such atrocities. Of course we have to remember that the 16th century catholic church (when there was the church and a monarchy) as well as others, were responsible for their share of atrocities.

 

[Kouyate42]

Being whipped is a bad thing to me.

I really wish there were stricter laws against alcohol, if not a complete ban,here in the UK. Would certainly make it possible to walk through my city centre without getting molested.

I understand.

OK, maybe I am wrong. However… Excerpt from the following; also see link at the bottom of the post: familysecuritymatters.org/publications/detail/women-under-sharia-law

"The Quran gives the husband the right to punish his wife if she goes outside the parameters that he draws for her. It provides men with instructions: “But those whose perverseness ye fear, admonish them and remove them into bed-chambers and beat them; but if they submit to you, then do not seek a way against them…” (Q 4.34).

As I say, there’s a lot of scholarly argument about this passage.

Not under the new covenant.

It’s still there in the Bible regardless.

But you don’t condone it - right?
OK…

I can’t see why what I’ve said is shocking in any way.

So you agree that it commands that homosexuals be executed?

Yes. Which means I’d be in BIG trouble…

I am not criticizing; far from it. New covenant under Jesus the Christ has no such commands; quite the opposite, " But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! Matthew 5

As I’ve said previously, compensation for crimes committed, or the waiving of the crime by the victims’ family, is seen as the best path in Islam.

islam-watch.org/authors/79-mirza/968-punishment-of-apostates-in-islam-is-death-by-beheading.html

Again, in no way am I criticizing…

I saw the words ‘Islam Watch’ and automatically know it’s going to be biased. That site and ‘Jihad Watch’ rely heavily on cherry-picked information and massive fallacies including strawmen and ad hominem attack.

 

[joe370]

Kouyate42;9725132]I really wish there were stricter laws against alcohol, if not a complete ban,here in the UK. Would certainly make it possible to walk through my city centre without getting molested.

I agree. Alcohol, when abused, has been the cause of a lot of problems in the world.

As I say, there’s a lot of scholarly argument about this passage.

It’s still there in the Bible regardless.

True, but it has nothing to do with the teachings of Christianity. Agreed?

I can’t see why what I’ve said is shocking in any way.

I just hate violence in any form…

Yes. Which means I’d be in BIG trouble…

But that’s just it: you shouldn’t have to worry about being in big trouble under Islamic sharia law.

As I’ve said previously, compensation for crimes committed, or the waiving of the crime by the victims’ family, is seen as the best path in Islam.

OK…

I saw the words ‘Islam Watch’ and automatically know it’s going to be biased. That site and ‘Jihad Watch’ rely heavily on cherry-picked information and massive fallacies including strawmen and ad hominem attack.

It was written by former Muslims. Excerpt from site:

*"Who are we?

We are a group of Muslim apostates, who have left Islam out of our own conviction when we discovered that Islam is not a religion at all. Most of us took a prolong period of time to study, evaluate, and contemplate on, this religion of our birth. Having meticulously scrutinized Islam, we concluded that it is not a religion of peace at all, as touted by smooth-talking, self-serving Muslims and their apologists from non-Muslim from backgrounds. The core of Islam—that is, the Qur’an, Hadis and Sharia—is filled with unbounded hatred for the unbelievers, unbelievably intolerant toward them and extremely cruel and merciless to Muslims, who dare to deviate from its doctrine."*

If I would have referenced anyone other than Muslims you would have said the same thing - right? Of course you are right about the fact that it can be difficult to locate trustworthy sources on line.

 

[triumphguy]

That is so awful!!! Makes me so sick thinking about such atrocities. Of course we have to remember that the 16th century catholic church (when there was the church and a monarchy) as well as others, were responsible for their share of atrocities.

So women who had been raped were then lashed?

Of course Christians have done evil things. But to do evil has not been the teaching of the Church.

And of course we live today, not 600 years ago.

 

[joe370]

triumphguy;9725223]So women who had been raped were then lashed?

No…

Of course Christians have done evil things. But to do evil has not been the teaching of the Church.

And of course we live today, not 600 years ago.

You are absolutely right.

 

[jakasaki]

o8.0 APOSTASY FROM ISLAM (RIDDA)

(O: Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst. It may come about through sarcasm, as when someone is told, Trim your nails, it is sunna,'' and he replies, I would not do it even if it were,’’ as opposed to when some circumstance exists which exonerates him of having committed apostasy, such as when his tongue runs away with him, or when he is quoting someone, or says it out of fear.)

o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.

o8.2 In such a case, it is obligatory for the caliph (A: or his representive) to ask him to repent and return to Islam. If he does, it is accepted from him, but if he refuses, he is immediately killed.

o8.3 If he is a freeman, no one besides the caliph or his representative may kill him. If someone else kills him, the killer is disciplined (def: o17) (O: for arrogating the caliph’s prerogative and encroaching upon his rights, as this is one of his duties).

o8.4 There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die).

o8.5 If he apostatizes from Islam and returns several times, it (O: i.e. his return to Islam, which occurs when he states the two Testifications of Faith (def: o8.7(12))) is accepted from him, though he is disciplined (o17).

o8.6 (A: If a spouse in a consummated marriage apostatizes from Islam, the couple are separated for a waiting period consisting of three intervals between menstruations. If the spouse returns to Islam before the waiting period ends, the marriage is not annulled but is considered to have continued the whole time (dis: m7.4).)

Source: Reliance of the Traveler

web.archive.org/web/20020830184127/http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/books/NHMK_RT/book_o.htm#o8.0

 

[jakasaki]

o14.0 THE PENALTY FOR THEFT

o14.1 A person’s right hand is amputated, whether he is a Muslim, non-Muslim subject of the Islamic state, or someone who has left Islam, when he:

has reached puberty;
is sane;
is acting voluntarily;
and steals at least a quarter of a dinar (n: 1.058 grams of gold) or goods worth that much (A:at the market price current) at the time of the theft:
from a place meeting the security requirements normal (A: in that locality and time for safeguarding similar articles (def: o14.3);
provided there is no possible confusion (dis: o14.2(3)) as to whether he took it by way of theft or for some other reason.

If a person steals a second time, his left foot is amputated; if a third time, then his left hand; and if he steals again, then his right foot. If he steals a fifth time, he is disciplined (def: o17). If he does not have a right hand (N: at the first offense), then his left foot is amputated. If he has a right hand but loses it after the theft (O: by an act of God) but before he has been punished for it, then nothing is amputated. After amputation, the limb is cauterized with hot oil (A: which in previous times was the means to stop the bleeding and save the criminal’s life).

Same source link from above post:

 

[robwar]

I really wish there were stricter laws against alcohol, if not a complete ban,here in the UK. Would certainly make it possible to walk through my city centre without getting molested.

As I say, there’s a lot of scholarly argument about this passage.

It’s still there in the Bible regardless.

I can’t see why what I’ve said is shocking in any way.

Yes. Which means I’d be in BIG trouble…

As I’ve said previously, compensation for crimes committed, or the waiving of the crime by the victims’ family, is seen as the best path in Islam.

islam-watch.org/authors/79-mirza/968-punishment-of-apostates-in-islam-is-death-by-beheading.html

Again, in no way am I criticizing…

I saw the words ‘Islam Watch’ and automatically know it’s going to be biased. That site and ‘Jihad Watch’ rely heavily on cherry-picked information and massive fallacies including strawmen and ad hominem attack.

They tell the truth which is pretty ugly about the real teachings of Islam. They are very well researched and only use and quote islamic sources. Sharia law is horrible. To say we need to ban alcohol, well that has been tried in the US in the 1920 and that lead to all sorts of underground use, and mob crime etc and was repealed because banning alcohol didn’t work. The Koran teachings that women are “tilth” for men, men can beat women, the women’s testimony (using the example of when Aisha was accused of adultery and she didn’t testify on her own behalf) is given only half the weight of men. Inheritance for girls is only half of the son’s from the father. You have child bride marriages using Mohammed’s great example with Aisha. Women can’t leave the home without a male escort in many countries. They can’t drive in Saudia Arabia considered the most Muslim country do to Mecca. The list goes on and on and on. how can anyone think otherwise.

 

[dolphinlove]

I really wish there were stricter laws against alcohol, if not a complete ban,here in the UK. Would certainly make it possible to walk through my city centre without getting molested.

You get molested walking down the streets in the UK? I walk down the streets and dont experience the same thing, yes i do dress modestly as well, but never has someone tried to grope me, and the town i live in is renoun for partying etc

 

[Kouyate42]

You get molested walking down the streets in the UK? I walk down the streets and dont experience the same thing, yes i do dress modestly as well, but never has someone tried to grope me, and the town i live in is renoun for partying etc

I’ve been verbally abused on many an occasion, and physically attacked on two seperate occasions, all because of the scarf on my head and the way I was dressed.

@robwar: No, sites like Islam Watch simply cherry pick things to suit their biased agenda, without even really understanding anything at all in context.

Firstly, Saudi Arabia is an example of ONE form of Islam. It’s not representative of all Islam (which has as many forms and levels of adherence as Christianity) and there are even Islamic scholars who have criticized Wahabbi Islam for holding to many dubious or even outright un-Islamic practices. Things like not allowing women to drive/work/leave the house alone has nothing to do with Islam one bit.

And the issue of child brides is again nothing to do with Islam. REAL Islam (and not some culturally-diluted form) is very much against the practice,

Secondly, the marriage of Aisha isn’t as abnormal or wrong as you might think. Firstly, the marriage was welcomed by Aisha’s parents, and indeed Aisha herself, who found her status as a married woman elevated her social status. Plus the marriage did not really afffect Aisha for the most part, who remained with her parents until she was old enough to move into her marriage house.

Also, you have to understand that given that the average life expectancy in 6th century Arabia was around 35, marriages were generally held at earlier ages than in our modern West.

BTW, in the Christian Byzantine Empire, many rich men married girls as young as 5, often against their will.

 

[Qwestions]

Kouyate, you stated that sources cited were taken out of context. Since you think we need to be enlightened, please explain how each of those examples was taken out of context, and please be specific. EXACTLY what pieces of information are we missing?

 

[jakasaki]

I’ve been verbally abused on many an occasion, and physically attacked on two seperate occasions, all because of the scarf on my head and the way I was dressed.

Seriously - ? I don’t buy it. Based on your threads & replies on this forum.

Firstly, Saudi Arabia is an example of ONE form of Islam. It’s not representative of all Islam (which has as many forms and levels of adherence as Christianity) and there are even Islamic scholars who have criticized Wahabbi Islam for holding to many dubious or even outright un-Islamic practices. Things like not allowing women to drive/work/leave the house alone has nothing to do with Islam one bit.

How many forms of “Islam” is there…??? Name them please. And last time I checked, Wahabbi (SA) claims to be true Sunni Islam.

And the issue of child brides is again nothing to do with Islam. REAL Islam (and not some culturally-diluted form) is very much against the practice,

What is “real Islam” - we’ve asked this question many times here on CAF - what is real Islam but have yet to receive an answer. And how would you know what “real” Islam is since you have been bouncing your religious status all over the place.

We’ve also asked real muslims on here in the past, what is real Islam and they can’t even tell us!

Secondly, the marriage of Aisha isn’t as abnormal or wrong as you might think. Firstly, the marriage was welcomed by Aisha’s parents, and indeed Aisha herself, who found her status as a married woman elevated her social status. Plus the marriage did not really afffect Aisha for the most part, who remained with her parents until she was old enough to move into her marriage house.

And you claim this how. - sources please. How can a 6 year old have any saying to this? Seriously -

Also, you have to understand that given that the average life expectancy in 6th century Arabia was around 35, marriages were generally held at earlier ages than in our modern West.

And yeah - Your prophet died leaving Aisha a widow by her age of 18… Way to go! And to boot - your prophet couldn’t even produce children with his “child” bride. !

Who cares what the marriage age was back in the 7th century. We are not speaking of Kings & Princes… Your self proclaimed prophet was supposed to be a “man of God” . His meddling in the multiple marriages and marring a young child of the age of 6 is down right nasty for a “prophet of God”.

BTW, in the Christian Byzantine Empire, many rich men married girls as young as 5, often against their will./QUOTE

Perhaps they did. Cite reliable sources for this information - but it would be meaningless, since you will not be able to provide information regarding “Man of God” - RE: Prophets marring 6 year olds.

But again, we are NOT talking about your average king - prince - or your AVERAGE Joe in Arabia or elsewhere during your self proclaimed prophets time.

We are talking about a “MAN OF GOD” - your prophet.

 

[dzheremi]

I may not know “REAL” Islam from fake Islam but one thing that posting on this board for years has taught me is that the things that aren’t “REAL” Islam could fill the kaaba to overflowing.

Can’t ever seem to get a straight answer as to what “REAL” Islam is, though. It tends to vary according to the person who is complaining about it/giving that non-explanation. If you are a Western convert who wants very much to believe in the sanitized, positive, holy version of Islam that you were sold, then it is anything that makes your religion look good, while “fake” Islam is anything that makes your religion look bad. If you are a terrorist, it is the right to assert your religion with violence in proportion to the example and exhortation of your prophet, who famously said that two religions were not to remain in the land of the Arabs (as per the Hadith of Malik Ibn Anas, which I believe are considered very trustworthy in mainstream Sunni Islam), and what is fake is precisely those interpretations which take from Islam its right to expand and conquer the entire world in accordance with its prophet’s wishes.

Will the REAL “REAL Islam” please stand up?

 

[sedonaman]

I may not know “REAL” Islam from fake Islam but one thing that posting on this board for years has taught me is that the things that aren’t “REAL” Islam could fill the kaaba to overflowing.

Can’t ever seem to get a straight answer as to what “REAL” Islam is, though. It tends to vary according to the person who is complaining about it/giving that non-explanation. If you are a Western convert who wants very much to believe in the sanitized, positive, holy version of Islam that you were sold, then it is anything that makes your religion look good, while “fake” Islam is anything that makes your religion look bad. If you are a terrorist, it is the right to assert your religion with violence in proportion to the example and exhortation of your prophet, who famously said that two religions were not to remain in the land of the Arabs (as per the Hadith of Malik Ibn Anas, which I believe are considered very trustworthy in mainstream Sunni Islam), and what is fake is precisely those interpretations which take from Islam its right to expand and conquer the entire world in accordance with its prophet’s wishes.
…

So it is whatever you want it to be.

 

[dolphinlove]

And the issue of child brides is again nothing to do with Islam. REAL Islam (and not some culturally-diluted form) is very much against the practice,

Secondly, the marriage of Aisha isn’t as abnormal or wrong as you might think. Firstly, the marriage was welcomed by Aisha’s parents, and indeed Aisha herself, who found her status as a married woman elevated her social status. Plus the marriage did not really afffect Aisha for the most part, who remained with her parents until she was old enough to move into her marriage house.

Also, you have to understand that given that the average life expectancy in 6th century Arabia was around 35, marriages were generally held at earlier ages than in our modern West.

BTW, in the Christian Byzantine Empire, many rich men married girls as young as 5, often against their will.

Firstly, marrying a child IS a part of the real islam, your prophet set this as an example.
So what if her parents welcomed it, the question is, did she welcome it? Did she really know what she was doing? At 6, I doubt it.
Also, I dont buy this rubbish ‘it was the cultural thing done in the 6th century’. As we know, muhammad was ‘supposedly’ and i use that term loosly, spoken to by an angel of God. I think God is perfect and loving in every way. Wouldnt God have stopped this marriage and taught muhammad what is truly right if it was the real God who was speaking to him? I personally think he would. God would not allow an old man to marry a girl age 6, for goodness sake, they are still considered a ‘child’ at that age, not a young woman who knew what they were doing.

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

Firstly, marrying a child IS a part of the real islam, your prophet set this as an example.
So what if her parents welcomed it, the question is, did she welcome it? Did she really know what she was doing? At 6, I doubt it.
Also, I dont buy this rubbish ‘it was the cultural thing done in the 6th century’. As we know, muhammad was ‘supposedly’ and i use that term loosly, spoken to by an angel of God. I think God is perfect and loving in every way. Wouldnt God have stopped this marriage and taught muhammad what is truly right if it was the real God who was speaking to him? I personally think he would. God would not allow an old man to marry a girl age 6, for goodness sake, they are still considered a ‘child’ at that age, not a young woman who knew what they were doing.

It seems whatever their prophet wanted good or bad his god gave him:shrug:

 

[Bezant]

Firstly, marrying a child IS a part of the real islam, your prophet set this as an example.

I’m still not sure whether there’s much point arguing “this is real Islam!” or “this is fake Islam!”

So what if her parents welcomed it, the question is, did she welcome it? Did she really know what she was doing? At 6, I doubt it.
Also, I dont buy this rubbish ‘it was the cultural thing done in the 6th century’.

But it does matter. It’s only rather recently that we make a difference between reaching physical maturity and mental maturity. There are still places that, like Muhammed’s time, once you complete puberty you’re for all intents and purposes an adult. And if my memory’s correct I believe the age of consent in the Vatican is only 12.

Furthermore, I’ve heard there’s some debate over whether Muhammed actually had sex with her.

As we know, muhammad was ‘supposedly’ and i use that term loosly, spoken to by an angel of God. I think God is perfect and loving in every way. Wouldnt God have stopped this marriage and taught muhammad what is truly right if it was the real God who was speaking to him? I personally think he would. God would not allow an old man to marry a girl age 6, for goodness sake, they are still considered a ‘child’ at that age, not a young woman who knew what they were doing.

But God never said that there was an age of consent, as far as I know.

 

[Kouyate42]

I may not know “REAL” Islam from fake Islam but one thing that posting on this board for years has taught me is that the things that aren’t “REAL” Islam could fill the kaaba to overflowing.

I don’t know why, but that last bit made me laugh.

Might be worth pointing out the Ka’aba isn’t actually that big.

Can’t ever seem to get a straight answer as to what “REAL” Islam is, though. It tends to vary according to the person who is complaining about it/giving that non-explanation. If you are a Western convert who wants very much to believe in the sanitized, positive, holy version of Islam that you were sold, then it is anything that makes your religion look good, while “fake” Islam is anything that makes your religion look bad. If you are a terrorist, it is the right to assert your religion with violence in proportion to the example and exhortation of your prophet, who famously said that two religions were not to remain in the land of the Arabs (as per the Hadith of Malik Ibn Anas, which I believe are considered very trustworthy in mainstream Sunni Islam), and what is fake is precisely those interpretations which take from Islam its right to expand and conquer the entire world in accordance with its prophet’s wishes.

Will the REAL “REAL Islam” please stand up?

Terrorism isn’t part of Islam, and terror activities were actively denounced by the Prophet (saw) HIMSELF! He actively rebuked his followers for carrying out attacks on caravans for purely selfish motives, which went against his ultimate desire to seek peace over war with other tribes/groups, along with those who went to war simply for booty/power.

Also, I resent the idea that any Western convert is sold a sanitized version of Islam. It is more than possible now for anyone to check facts and decide for themselves free of any bias or pressure to find out about something, thanks to the internet and Google.

In my case, I read the Qur’an for myself and made up my own mind. Muslims around me were more than happy to answer questions on not just ‘nice’ subjects but also more difficult ones such as terrorism, FGM in Africa, the Taliban, inter-faith relations and many more subjects such as these.

Firstly, marrying a child IS a part of the real islam, your prophet set this as an example.
So what if her parents welcomed it, the question is, did she welcome it? Did she really know what she was doing? At 6, I doubt it.
Also, I dont buy this rubbish ‘it was the cultural thing done in the 6th century’. As we know, muhammad was ‘supposedly’ and i use that term loosly, spoken to by an angel of God. I think God is perfect and loving in every way. Wouldnt God have stopped this marriage and taught muhammad what is truly right if it was the real God who was speaking to him? I personally think he would. God would not allow an old man to marry a girl age 6, for goodness sake, they are still considered a ‘child’ at that age, not a young woman who knew what they were doing.

I’m a firm believer that the age of content is an arbitrary measure. Certainly a person’s mental maturity can far exceed their age.

Might be worth pointing out that in many countries, entering puberty means you’re officially classed as an adult,and this isn’t limited to Islamic countries either.

 

[dzheremi]

I don’t know why, but that last bit made me laugh.

Might be worth pointing out the Ka’aba isn’t actually that big.

Well, yeah…why else do you think it would be overflowing?

Terrorism isn’t part of Islam

I never said it was. I said if you are an Islamic terrorist, then obviously you think your activities are encouraged by your religion. The whole point of my post was that since nobody can/is bothering to step up and deal with those who say that it is “true Islam” to blow up civilians, the places of worship of other religions/other Islamic sects, etc., those of us who aren’t Muslims must take Muslims at their word when they say that action X, Y, Z is part of Islam. Presumably the al-Zarqawis of the world do not commit mass murder just because they like it, but because they think it furthers their religious objectives. The fact that they’re wrong…well, no one would like to believe that more than me, as a member of a native Middle Eastern Christian community that is feeling the sharp end of Islam right now, but reality tells me otherwise. Muslims burn down embassies and kill people over cartoons they don’t like and they say that this is properly within the defense of their religion; Bahraini intellectual Dhiyya al-Musawi says that the Qur’an is balanced and that the current “gallows of ideology” that grips the Arab-Muslim world is a disgrace to the Islamic religion. Guess which one I’d rather believe? It’s not the one that makes Islam look bad. But, unfortunately, reality tells me otherwise. I don’t live in the Islamo-bubble. I live in a world where my people are being killed by followers of your prophet for explicitly religious reasons. Would that it were otherwise, and would that I, living outside of the Middle East as I do, could do something to reduce this. But I didn’t put verses in the Qur’an about fighting the disbelievers until they pay the jaziya and feel themselves subdued, or in the Hadith (Bukhari) about being made victorious with terror, etc.

and terror activities were actively denounced by the Prophet (saw) HIMSELF! He actively rebuked his followers for carrying out attacks on caravans for purely selfish motives, which went against his ultimate desire to seek peace over war with other tribes/groups, along with those who went to war simply for booty/power.

Well then what a poor job his successors did of learning this lesson!

Also, I resent the idea that any Western convert is sold a sanitized version of Islam. It is more than possible now for anyone to check facts and decide for themselves free of any bias or pressure to find out about something, thanks to the internet and Google.

Resent it all you want. It is the common understanding that all non-Arabic Quran’s are but “interpretations”, and since you do not speak Arabic natively, I think I will trust the understandings of it that come from within the Arab world over what you, a non-Arab convert, are told in Britain. It’s not as though the Islamic missionaries are disinterested parties, merely passing on unbiased information, rather than the entire worldview that is predisposed to seeing the Qur’an as a miracle and from God and all that that entails. This is what you must believe to believe in the religion of Islam, so please don’t make it like I’m attacking you just because I pointed it out. It’s the truth and it’s built into how you approach the text itself (e.g., , they should wash themselves before handling itthat has Arabic script in it).

In my case, I read the Qur’an for myself and made up my own mind. Muslims around me were more than happy to answer questions on not just ‘nice’ subjects but also more difficult ones such as terrorism, FGM in Africa, the Taliban, inter-faith relations and many more subjects such as these.

That’s good that you asked many questions. Everyone should be informed before picking a religion.

 

[Sam_777]

Seriously - ? I don’t buy it. Based on your threads & replies on this forum.

How many forms of “Islam” is there…??? Name them please. And last time I checked, Wahabbi (SA) claims to be true Sunni Islam.

What is “real Islam” - we’ve asked this question many times here on CAF - what is real Islam but have yet to receive an answer. And how would you know what “real” Islam is since you have been bouncing your religious status all over the place.

We’ve also asked real muslims on here in the past, what is real Islam and they can’t even tell us!

And you claim this how. - sources please. How can a 6 year old have any saying to this? Seriously -

And yeah - Your prophet died leaving Aisha a widow by her age of 18… Way to go! And to boot - your prophet couldn’t even produce children with his “child” bride. !

Who cares what the marriage age was back in the 7th century. We are not speaking of Kings & Princes… Your self proclaimed prophet was supposed to be a “man of God” . His meddling in the multiple marriages and marring a young child of the age of 6 is down right nasty for a “prophet of God”.

Perhaps they did. Cite reliable sources for this information - but it would be meaningless, since you will not be able to provide information regarding “Man of God” - RE: Prophets marring 6 year olds.

But again, we are NOT talking about your average king - prince - or your AVERAGE Joe in Arabia or elsewhere during your self proclaimed prophets time.

We are talking about a “MAN OF GOD” - your prophet.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif well said sister in Christ, wouldn’t be said better than that…