Sharing What We Learned From Scripture

[Eliza10]

Yes! Let me share a pivotal scripture for me.

As an Evangelical Christian, I believed that the Bible Alone was ALL we need to know of God - the Bible and Jesus, of course, and fellowship with other Christians, and also some good Bible teachers from their various schools (or no schools) of learning. (And of course with their opposing opinions about the meanings of the same scriptures, but that’s another story.)

So, when I heard the question, “What is the pillar and foundation of truth?”, I knew the answer, “Why, the Bible, of course!”

But that’s not what the Bible says. The Bible says in I Timothy 3:15,

"But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."

Shocking. The Bible says the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. What?! The Church?! Not the Bible?! Yes. And that’s when I knew there was something seriously wrong with my “Bible Alone” faith, with what had always in fact been the pillar of my faith! And it was shocking.

Also it was further shocking to have other scriptures makes sense. That Jesus founded a Church, on a Rock. He did not found a book. No scripture says he founded a book, that he founded scripture. No. Scripture instead tells us he founded a Church, and that he put Apostles in charge, and he gave his twelve Apostles (NOT the other disciples, only the 12) power to decide things on earth that would then be bound not only on earth but in Heaven too!

So Scripture tells us He founded a Church, and through his Apostles, not a book. Jesus’ Apostles then formed a Chruch, formed it with eternally binding decisions, bound on earth and in Heaven. With their binding powere they appointd successors, just like they appointed a succsor for Judas Iscariot. And much, later, after the original Apostles had all died, their succsors, under the Pope, the successor of Peter the Head Apostle, and the Bishops, directly related to those original 12 apostles by a laying on of hands and given holy power to decide by binding agreement of the Church that Jesus founded, gave us the Bible. Bound on earth and in Heaven for all time to be Holy Scripture!

So to divorce the Bible from the Church that Jesus founded is a very sad thing. But it is the word of God, and Fair Lady, you are very blessed to have a part of what Jesus wants you to have!

But He also wants you to grow in holiness, and He provided an ordinary way to do that through the Church he founded and the power He entrusted to that Church. A real Church, not an invisible one, but one visible Church, as one set upon a hill.

The real power and life for growing in holiness is in the Sacraments entrusted to the Church, particularly the chief Sacrament, the Holy Eucharist. That is the center of our faith because, as you can see in John 6:54,:

" Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.”

So the ordinary and quickest way to grow in holiness is to eat His Flesh and Drink His Blood. Because then you will have life in you.

Notice, He does not say to eat a " symbol of My Body" or a “remembrance of My Body”, like what you receive at your Protestant Church. That’s not scriptural. He says eat His Flesh. So you will have life in you.

That’s what you are missing, Fair Lady. May the Fairest Lady point you to her True Son, Who is living Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in every Tabernacle in the world, and Who is presented at every Mass at every time of the day, every day, from the East to the West, the world-over, now and until the end of time!

 

[John7]

• let’s keep it to scripture only -

Am I sure that Fair Lady considers the deuteros scripture?

example,1, 2 Maccabees.
I’ll share what I learned from these two books:
the Greek of 2Macc is much more difficult than 1Macc
Longer and more complicated sentence structures, different authors.

.

 

[Nita]

I’ve been in the book of James for the last few days. The first thing that really struck a chord with me is found in the second and third verses of chapter 1: “Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.”

It’s not easy, is it, to “consider it all joy” while undergoing trials? But have you ever experienced that sense of hope that is found only in Christ when nothing seems to be going the way we’d like it to go? And with it comes a sense of joy and, yes, even a measure of peace, because we know by faith that we can trust in Him completely. Often it isn’t until I’ve gone through that storm, that I can see much more clearly how God worked His mighty ways in that trial. And then my faith grows more because I once again see firsthand the goodness of God and His amazing ways.

… I’m really not interested in debating anything here - it’s more about sharing. Hope that works for you guys

Hi Fair Lady,
I know exactly how you feel about just wanting to share insights received from Scripture passages rather than debating them. If you don’t mind a suggestion, it would be better to start a thread in the Sacred Scripture forum. Also, you need to narrow the scope somewhat (all of Scripture is a bit too broad). Since you’re reading the book of James, perhaps you could start a thread titled “The Epistle of James” and then ask people to share insights they receive from that epistle. I for one would like to participate in that thread.
Nita

 

[promethius]

Acts 17:10-12
King James Version (KJV)

"And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few."

Right, but there’s a problem: what were they searching in the scriptures? Prophecies. Why? Because Paul was teaching them the new testament ORALLY with the focus on the fact that Christ fulfilled the old testament prophecies according to scripture.

Of course they looked at scripture to verify that the prophecies were fulfilled… why? So they could accept the NEW information that Paul was teaching them ORALLY (especially since NONE of the new testament had been written AT ALL by the point you’re referencing).

Why were the Bereans more noble than the Thessalonians? Not because they read the scriptures (of which none of the Gospels or the new testament even existed at the time). The Thessalonians “reasoned from scripture” as well. The Bereans were more noble because they didn’t violently reject the ORAL TEACHING of St Paul, whose ORAL TEACHING agreed with, but was not contained within the written scripture at the time.

All this is apparent if you read the whole chapter in context with the timeframe in which it occured. This is a perfect descriptor of why this “interpret scripture with scripture” idea is a horrendously incorrect position: because you have looked at a few verses and come up with an idea that in no way is logically supported by your quote.

 

[Miriam1947]

I’m not here to debate this, but just want to say that it’s not only a Protestant approach, but also a very biblical one. The Bereans in Acts 17 are good models for us to follow.

Here’s a good book:

The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith by John Salza.

He uses just what “Bible believing Christians” use: the Bible alone.

As a Catholic convert, I am also a Bible believing Christian; I just don’t think that is all there is.

 

[Fair_Lady]

'll share what I learned from these two books:
the Greek of 2Macc is much more difficult than 1Macc
Longer and more complicated sentence structures, different authors.

.

How profound!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

How profound!

Welcome back. I am interested in what you ‘gleaned’ from Nehemiah 8?

 

[Fair_Lady]

Why were the Bereans more noble than the Thessalonians?

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Not because they read the scriptures (of which none of the Gospels or the new testament even existed at the time). The Thessalonians “reasoned from scripture” as well. The Bereans were more noble because they didn’t violently reject the ORAL TEACHING of St Paul, whose ORAL TEACHING agreed with, but was not contained within the written scripture at the time.

Maybe I need to clarify that I’m not at all opposed to oral teaching and preaching of God’s word. I’m only opposed to teaching and preaching ideas that are contrary to scripture or cannot be backed by scripture…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Maybe I need to clarify that I’m not at all opposed to oral teaching and preaching of God’s word. I’m only opposed to teaching and preaching ideas that are contrary to scripture.

And how do you determine which teachings are contrary to scriptures? Wouldn’t one have to claim their interpretation correct over others?

 

[Fair_Lady]

Welcome back. I am interested in what you ‘gleaned’ from Nehemiah 8?

Thanks for reminding me. I did read the chapter and maybe the easiest way to go about this is to write my notes in point form:

1. A gathering of people in front of the water gate requested the book of the law of Moses which God had given to Israel.
2. Ezra the priest brought the law before the people and read from it to the attentive people.
3. When Ezra opened the book, all the people stood. I think that may be an act of respect and reverence on the part of the people.
4. Ezra blessed the Lord and all the people responded with “amens” and bowed to worship the Lord.
5. Several other men explained the law to the people and they read from the book (the law of God) .
6. The people wept when they heard the words of the law. They were told not to weep, “for the joy of the Lord is your strength”. The people then went away to celebrate a great festival because they understood the words that had been made known to them.
7. On the second day, many of the people gathered again to gain insight into the words of the law.
8. They found how the Lord commanded the sons of Israel that they should live in booths during the feast of the seventh month.
9. The people proclaimed and circulated a proclamation in all their cities the instruction to bring materials to build booths. They build the booths and lived in them in obedience to what they had read from God’s law.
10. He (I believe “he” is still referring to Ezra - let me know if you understand differently) continued to read the book of the law of God daily. The people celebrated the feast 7 days and on the 8th day there was a solemn assembly according to the ordinance.
11. It is clear from this passage that reading, hearing and learning from the word of God was a very joyful experience to the people of Israel and this led them to obedience. It also appears that they took the law fo God very seriously and understanding the words from God was something to celebrate.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Hi Fair Lady,
I know exactly how you feel about just wanting to share insights received from Scripture passages rather than debating them. If you don’t mind a suggestion, it would be better to start a thread in the Sacred Scripture forum. Also, you need to narrow the scope somewhat (all of Scripture is a bit too broad). Since you’re reading the book of James, perhaps you could start a thread titled “The Epistle of James” and then ask people to share insights they receive from that epistle. I for one would like to participate in that thread.
Nita

Thanks for the suggestion, Nita. I think it’s an excellent idea. Would you like to start the thread? I’d gladly participate from time to time, but unfortunately I don’t have enough of it to lead a study just now.

 

[Miriam1947]

Here’s a good book:

The Biblical Basis for the Catholic Faith by John Salza.

He uses just what “Bible believing Christians” use: the Bible alone.

As a Catholic convert, I am also a Bible believing Christian; I just don’t think that is all there is.

Fair Lady, have you had a chance to find this book? I have a copy if you are interested.

Since the Church existed before the New Testament was written, and the Bible was canonized by the Catholic Church, it gives insight into what we believe and why and where in the Bible we can find the scripture that backs up what we believe.

It isn’t just a handful of verses hither and yon.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Those that understood were Levites, religious leaders of the times.

Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

They caused them to understand, through teaching the interpretation. Interpretation was not something they did on their own.

By the way, when the Gospels brought forth to be read in the Catholic Church, the people stand until the readings are over.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Those that understood were Levites, religious leaders of the times.

Neh 8:8 So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

They caused them to understand, through teaching the interpretation. Interpretation was not something they did on their own.

By the way, when the Gospels brought forth to be read in the Catholic Church, the people stand until the readings are over.

I don’t have anything against leaders reading and teaching from the scriptures. One question for you - do you ever read the Bible on your own and come to an understanding of what you are reading?

 

[Fair_Lady]

Fair Lady, have you had a chance to find this book? I have a copy if you are interested.

Since the Church existed before the New Testament was written, and the Bible was canonized by the Catholic Church, it gives insight into what we believe and why and where in the Bible we can find the scripture that backs up what we believe.

It isn’t just a handful of verses hither and yon.

Thank you, but I don’t feel inclined to read such a book at this time. Maybe one day…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t have anything against leaders reading and teaching from the scriptures. One question for you - do you ever read the Bible on your own and come to an understanding of what you are reading?

Yes, that’s why I converted to Catholicism.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I’ve been in the book of James for the last few days. The first thing that really struck a chord with me is found in the second and third verses of chapter 1: “Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.”

It’s not easy, is it, to “consider it all joy” while undergoing trials? But have you ever experienced that sense of hope that is found only in Christ when nothing seems to be going the way we’d like it to go? And with it comes a sense of joy and, yes, even a measure of peace, because we know by faith that we can trust in Him completely. Often it isn’t until I’ve gone through that storm, that I can see much more clearly how God worked His mighty ways in that trial. And then my faith grows more because I once again see firsthand the goodness of God and His amazing ways.

Yes, it is not easy. Unfortunately martin luther could not endure the sufferings and went out taking many with him. As Catholics we are eternally gratefull to God for the Grace to see His Church and remain in Her. The Church of the Living God who continuously reminds us of the Laws of God when we have the tendency to follow our own ways and the ways of man. protestant have a big problem with obedience. it is much easy for a proud man to live without authority over him. sure protestants say that they obey Jesus. For us Catholics we show obedience to Our Lord by showing obedience to the authority He placed over us, the Church. Reading Scriptures is nothing new for the Catholic Church since Scriptures was put forth by her. when protestants come here quoting Scriptures, we Catholics must remain humble and listen, when we coul just be laughing at protestants for thinking that they are the ones who have understanding of Scriptures.

As Catholics, we have the great gift of being in the Church who was and remain so to this day is the true Witness of Christ. she was there with Christ. protestants don’t have this. They rely on the CC for most of their understanding of God.

The authority of Christ is seing in the CC when she speaks to the world and hold hte world accountable to God. she is the only one who can evangelize the whole world, she does so alone facing oppositiong from protestants and pagan government and so forth. She has her Lord who promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. Amazing promise. Thanks be to God.

 

[promethius]

Maybe I need to clarify that I’m not at all opposed to oral teaching and preaching of God’s word. I’m only opposed to teaching and preaching ideas that are contrary to scripture or cannot be backed by scripture…

But what, at the time of the Bereans, was God’s word? The old testament, sure… but the new? No gospel had even had ONE drop of ink set to pen at that time!

Paul is not preaching something that can be backed by scripture… why? Because there was NO scripture at the time! Of course Paul didn’t CONTRADICT what would become scripture later, since what he taught was true… just as what the church teaches today does not contradict scripture, because it is true.

But let’s delve into scripture, if we may:

1. Who decided which books would go into the new testament?
2. Who was the one who ultimately decided that this was the authoritative canon?
3. When did they form this canon of scripture?
4. What criteria did they use? Why was, say, the Gospel of Thomas or Peter rejected while the Gospel of Matthew was kept?
5. Most importantly, by what authority did they decide? Who gave them the power to infallibily declare which canon was true?

I’ll even give you the answers:

1. The Bishops of the Catholic Church in the Synod of Hippo
2. The pope. The canon was not officially approved by an ecumenical council until Trent in 1545. That means the sole authority declaring the bible infallibly for nearly 1,100 years was the pope!
3. The fourth century (I kinda gave that away in the last one… oops!)
4. The criteria they used was whether or not the scriptures agreed with the Tradition and teaching of the church! The Gospel of Thomas didn’t, and niether did Peter… but the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John agreed with the Gospel of the Church!
5. The authority was given to them because they were the Church appointed by Christ and given the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. If they didn’t have this special authority then I might as well, as an equal authority, go back and read the Gospel of Thomas and Peter (or any of the other apocrypha) and decide whether they belong in the new testament. But I don’t… why? Because I accept the authority of the Synod of Hippo and the pope EVERY time I open the Bible.

In short, you’re reading OUR book every time you crack open that Bible, and by doing so and rejecting the apocryphal gospels, you’re accepting the authority of the Catholic church every time you do! Your very declaration that the word of God in the Scriptures is infallible is a declaration of the authority of the church to form that Canon.

And so, since you accept the church’s authority to determine the new testament Canon, why wouldn’t you accept her authority to teach from the Canon? Why wouldn’t you accept the writings of the early church fathers and the traditions which formed the criteria for what is in that Canon?

You accept our book and our authority… but you reject the proper use of that text in terms of the Catholicity with which it was formed. It don’t make sense!

 

[Tomster]

Let’s share what we’ve learned from our Bible readings. Just one request - let’s keep it to scripture only - no influence from other writings. In other words, let’s interpret scripture with scripture. It is nice to see a fair number of people who responded to the poll that I posted just a few days ago read their Bibles daily or nearly daily.

Sorry Fair Lady, authentic interpretation of the Scriptures is the job of the Church. Since the Bible is the infallible word of God, its takes an infallible interpreter to get the job done correctly. Groups of individuals on this message board trying to interpret Scriptures, infallibly, is a waste of time. We all need a teacher and that teacher is the Church, the pillar and ground of truth.

 

[Tomster]

I’m not here to debate this, but just want to say that it’s not only a Protestant approach, but also a very biblical one. The Bereans in Acts 17 are good models for us to follow.

Really!

Ask yourself which books of the Bible did the Bereans search. Did they have access to the complete New Testament? Don’t think so. So, if you are going to follow their lead you are necessarily going to limit yourself to the Old Testament only. This is not a good model for any Christian to follow.