Shavuot and Confirmation

[johnnyt3000]

Is the Jewish feast of “Shavuot” biblical? Does the sacrament of confirmation have roots/origins with “Shavuot”? Or is Confirmation more closely related to a Bar Mitzvah/Bat Mitzvah? This is for my essay.

 

[robwar]

Shavout or the feast of weeks is the same as our Pentecost and Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit came down on the first disciples. In Judiasm, Shavout is believed to be when Moses received the Ten commandments from God. These are easy searches on the comupter, I am not sure why you are not trying that. Confirmation does correspond with Bar Mitvah. Again all of this is easy google searches.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Confirmation is related to baptism. It is not a sign of maturity like a bar mitzvah. In Eastern Churches it is normally conferred on infants. In the Western Church it can normally be conferred after the age of reason, about 7, though younger children in danger of death can also receive it. See the Catechism.

 

[MorEphrem]

Confirmation is related to baptism. It is not a sign of maturity like a bar mitzvah. In Eastern Churches it is normally conferred on infants. In the Western Church it can normally be conferred after the age of reason, about 7, though younger children in danger of death can also receive it. See the Catechism.

Thank you for saying this. Just because the post-VII Church in America has completely divorced confirmation from Baptism does not mean it is some “rite of passage.” It is the sealing and completion of the Holy Spirit upon Baptism given by Christ - Confirmation is derived from when Christ was “confirmed” at His Baptism by the visible descent of the Holy Spirit and the audible affirmation of His Father. The Holy Spirit’s function within creation is the completion of things the Father has made and the Son has created - Confirmation is an example of this.

 

[robwar]

Confirmation is related to baptism. It is not a sign of maturity like a bar mitzvah. In Eastern Churches it is normally conferred on infants. In the Western Church it can normally be conferred after the age of reason, about 7, though younger children in danger of death can also receive it. See the Catechism.

Confirmation is usually around the age of 13 or 14 years. First communion is usually around 7 in the western Church. While confirmation is related to baptism as a final stage of initiation after baptism and first communion, it is practiced around the same ages as a bar/bat mitzvah, at least in the western church and thus the answer to Op’s question and analogy. Some of the more liturgical Protestant Churches practice confirmation. I was confirmed in the Methodist Church and similar to the Jewish bar/bat mitzvah, one is basically considered an adult after that.

 

[babochka]

Confirmation is usually around the age of 13 or 14 years. First communion is usually around 7 in the western Church.

Confirmation might usually be conferred in your own diocese at around the age of 13 or 14, but the age varies widely. The “usual” age (in the Western Church), is the age of reason (around 7), unless a Bishops Conference has determined a different age. In the US, the Bishops Conference has determined that the “usual” age is any time between the age of reason and 18. For this reason, the age can vary widely from diocese to diocese and even from parish to parish.

While confirmation is related to baptism as a final stage of initiation after baptism and first communion, it is practiced around the same ages as a bar/bat mitzvah, at least in the western church

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. That still doesn’t mean it has any similarity to a Bar Mitzvah.

Some of the more liturgical Protestant Churches practice confirmation. I was confirmed in the Methodist Church and similar to the Jewish bar/bat mitzvah, one is basically considered an adult after that.

The Confirmation practiced by Protestant Churches is similar in some ways to a Bar Mitzvah, but Protestant churches do not have (nor claim to have) the Sacrament of Confirmation. They are two entirely different things.

 

[robwar]

Confirmation might usually be conferred in your own diocese at around the age of 13 or 14, but the age varies widely. The “usual” age (in the Western Church), is the age of reason (around 7), unless a Bishops Conference has determined a different age. In the US, the Bishops Conference has determined that the “usual” age is any time between the age of reason and 18. For this reason, the age can vary widely from diocese to diocese and even from parish to parish.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn’t. That still doesn’t mean it has any similarity to a Bar Mitzvah.

The Confirmation practiced by Protestant Churches is similar in some ways to a Bar Mitzvah, but Protestant churches do not have (nor claim to have) the Sacrament of Confirmation. They are two entirely different things.

Hi , I understand your point coming from your rite but you must realize that Op is a highschool student trying to do some paper and he is a Latin Rite Catholic. I think that arguing the finer details of differences in the views and practices of different Rites here is not the point. After working with my two older son’s on all of their sacraments of initiation which confirmation was the last, it was never suggested at any time that confirmation was around the age 7. In fact, it was suggested if the 13/14 year old wasn’t ready to delay confirmation. Again I am not sure how this helps a high school student write a paper that is making a comparison between confirmation and bar/bat mitzvah?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Confirmation is usually around the age of 13 or 14 years.

“Usually” is difficult to quantify. Canon law says:

Can. 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful **at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, **or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.

The USCCB says between the age of reason and 16 years old. See usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/canon-law/complementary-norms/canon-891-age-for-confirmation.cfm

First communion is usually around 7 in the western Church. While confirmation is related to baptism as a final stage of initiation after baptism and first communion,

Unfortunately, the sacraments of initiation are often conferred out of order. As the Catechism explains:

1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord’s own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist. (1212)

If you attend the Easter Vigil, you’ll notice that adults are baptized, confirmed, and then receive communion. Some dioceses are starting to restore the order of the sacraments. EWTN reprinted information from the Phoenix Diocese here.. It made the news in South Dakota when Pope Benedict praised the restoration of the order of sacraments there.

The Canadian bishops explain here how the sacraments got out of order:

In 1910, St. Pius X, desiring that children receive the Eucharist at an earlier age, declared the age of reason (around age seven) was an appropriate time for children to receive the Eucharist. The imposition of hands and anointing (confirmation) was now celebrated after the Eucharist at a later age. A direct result of this was that the imposition of hands and anointing became disconnected from baptism and the Eucharist, having lost its place within the traditional order of the reception of the rituals. As a consequence, the imposition of hands and anointing became a ritual in search of a meaning, a theology.

 

[robwar]

“Usually” is difficult to quantify. Canon law says:

Can. 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful **at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, **or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.

The USCCB says between the age of reason and 16 years old. See usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/canon-law/complementary-norms/canon-891-age-for-confirmation.cfm

Unfortunately, the sacraments of initiation are often conferred out of order. As the Catechism explains:

1322 The holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation. Those who have been raised to the dignity of the royal priesthood by Baptism and configured more deeply to Christ by Confirmation participate with the whole community in the Lord’s own sacrifice by means of the Eucharist. (1212)

If you attend the Easter Vigil, you’ll notice that adults are baptized, confirmed, and then receive communion. Some dioceses are starting to restore the order of the sacraments. EWTN reprinted information from the Phoenix Diocese here.. It made the news in South Dakota when Pope Benedict praised the restoration of the order of sacraments there.

The Canadian bishops explain here how the sacraments got out of order:

In 1910, St. Pius X, desiring that children receive the Eucharist at an earlier age, declared the age of reason (around age seven) was an appropriate time for children to receive the Eucharist. The imposition of hands and anointing (confirmation) was now celebrated after the Eucharist at a later age. A direct result of this was that the imposition of hands and anointing became disconnected from baptism and the Eucharist, having lost its place within the traditional order of the reception of the rituals. As a consequence, the imposition of hands and anointing became a ritual in search of a meaning, a theology.

and how does all this help a high school student write a paper comparing bar/bat mitzvah to confirmation? One can quote all the finer points of what order and age they want but I live a a pretty big arch dioscese and confirmation age is the early teens which is the age of bar/bat miztvah which likewise corresponds with Protestant’s confirmation when it is practiced. I think too often CAF posters are too interested in showing off their “knowledge” and ability to quote CCC or other church documents instead of helping with the original question at hand.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

and how does all this help a high school student write a paper comparing bar/bat mitzvah to confirmation?

The short answer is that a bar mitzvah has nothing to do with confirmation. Other than the fact that they are both religious rituals it would be hard to compare them. It’s like asking how stamp collecting relates to fantasy sports. They both can be classified as hobbies, but other than that they don’t have much in common.

 

[babochka]

Hi , I understand your point coming from your rite but you must realize that Op is a highschool student trying to do some paper and he is a Latin Rite Catholic.

My post did not refer to the practice of my rite at all. We chrismate (confirm) infants immediately after baptism, not at the age of reason. This is from the Code of Canon law, which does not apply to Eastern Catholics, as we have our own code:

Can. 891 The sacrament of confirmation is to be conferred on the faithful at about the age of discretion unless the conference of bishops has determined another age, or there is danger of death, or in the judgment of the minister a grave cause suggests otherwise.

I think that arguing the finer details of differences in the views and practices of different Rites here is not the point. After working with my two older son’s on all of their sacraments of initiation which confirmation was the last, it was never suggested at any time that confirmation was around the age 7. In fact, it was suggested if the 13/14 year old wasn’t ready to delay confirmation.

Again, my post only referred to the practice of the Latin Rite. Nowhere in the official teaching of the Church can be found the idea that Confirmation, in the Latin Rite, is about “accepting the faith as your own” or “becoming an adult in the faith”. There is no difference between the view of East and West in this. East and West both understand this sacrament to be the completion of baptism and the seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit. If a person is able to do so, he or she must certain make a personal statement of faith in order to receive the sacrament. This is also true in both the east and west, but it is not what the sacrament is about.

Again I am not sure how this helps a high school student write a paper that is making a comparison between confirmation and bar/bat mitzvah?

Anybody who is seeking to make such a comparison needs to define his terms. Bar Mitzvah is a ceremony undergone by Jews which marks a reality that occurs with his age, regardless of the ceremony. The Jewish boy or girl is now, based upon age, required to observe the commandments. The ceremony is not required for this to become a reality.

“Bar Mitzvah” literally means “son of the commandment.” “Bar” is “son” in Aramaic, which used to be the vernacular of the Jewish people. “Mitzvah” is “commandment” in both Hebrew and Aramaic. “Bat” is daughter in Hebrew and Aramaic. (The Ashkenazic pronunciation is “bas”). Technically, the term refers to the child who is coming of age, and it is strictly correct to refer to someone as “becoming a bar (or bat) mitzvah.” However, the term is more commonly used to refer to the coming of age ceremony itself, and you are more likely to hear that someone is “having a bar mitzvah” or “invited to a bar mitzvah.”
So what does it mean to become a bar mitzvah? Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments. The bar mitzvah ceremony formally, publicly marks the assumption of that obligation, along with the corresponding right to take part in leading religious services, to count in a minyan (the minimum number of people needed to perform certain parts of religious services), to form binding contracts, to testify before religious courts and to marry.
A Jewish boy automatically becomes a bar mitzvah upon reaching the age of 13 years, and a girl upon reaching the age of 12 years. No ceremony is needed to confer these rights and obligations. The popular bar mitzvah ceremony is not required, and does not fulfill any commandment.

jewfaq.org/barmitz.htm

Confirmation, on the other hand, is a Sacrament. A Sacrament, according to the Baltimore Catechism, is “an outward sign, instituted by Christ, to give Grace.” (Again, this is a completely Latin definition.) The same Baltimore Catechism defines Confirmation as: " A Sacrament through which we receive the Holy Ghost to make us strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ." For a more modern definition, we can turn to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which has the following to say about Confirmation:

THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION
1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the “sacraments of Christian initiation,” whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.89 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."90

So, the only similarity between Bar Mitzvah and Confirmation is that, in some cases, in some dioceses, they occur at approximately the same age.

I hope the moderators move this thread to Liturgy and Sacraments, rather than just close it, as it is an important thread.

 

[robwar]

The short answer is that a bar mitzvah has nothing to do with confirmation. Other than the fact that they are both religious rituals it would be hard to compare them. It’s like asking how stamp collecting relates to fantasy sports. They both can be classified as hobbies, but other than that they don’t have much in common.

that is just your opinion though. There are some parallels in them and I’ve have seen those comparisons written about in Catholic and Protestants articles. I think it would be nice if some of our Jewish posters would comment on this as well since Op was writing a paper for his religion class.

 

[babochka]

that is just your opinion though. There are some parralles in them and I’ve have seen those comparisons written about in Catholic and Protestants articles. I think it would be nice if some of our Jewish posters would comment on this as well since Op was writing a paper for his religion class.

Can you share some of the similarities that you see between the two, or articles that have compared the two. It seems that that would be an excellent contribution to the thread.

 

[babochka]

Shavout or the feast of weeks is the same as our Pentecost and Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit came down on the first disciples.

In this case, it would seem that there is a connection between Confirmation and Shavout, as Confirmation is a personal participation in the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. It is when we, as individuals, receive the Holy Spirit in the same way the apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

 

[babochka]

I came across this excellent and very thorough article which summarizes the teaching of the Church on what Confirmation is (and is not). It is a long read, but well worth it.

ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/CONFIRM1.HTM

 

[robwar]

I came across this excellent and very thorough article which summarizes the teaching of the Church on what Confirmation is (and is not). It is a long read, but well worth it.

ewtn.com/library/CATECHSM/CONFIRM1.HTM

thank-you for the link. I did skim read some of it and plan on getting more in depth. I think it would be good if some of our Jewish posters would comment on Bar/bat Mitzvah from their views and experience. I do know that it just isn’t an automatic “party” based on age and that there is religious study and prep for it. For a majority of Latin Rite Catholics, confirmation usually comes during the early teen years in the US at least. So I hope Meltzerboy will comment and educate us here.

 

[babochka]

comment on Bar/bat Mitzvah from their views and experience. I do know that it just isn’t an automatic “party” based on age and that there is religious study and prep for it.

I also wish that Jewish members could weigh in on this discussion. It is my understanding that Bar/Bat Mitzvah is automatic, based upon age (13 for boys, 12 for girls). The religious ceremony, which involves study and prep, is optional. The ceremony is an acknowledgement that the person has become a Bat/Bar Mitzvah.

I suppose that is a parallel of sort to Confirmation, in a very stretched sort of way. When a person is confirmed, they receive the Grace of the sacrament, regardless of age, preparation or knowledge. The Sacrament occurs, whether the recipient is a teenager who has diligently attended classes for 2 years and learned everything that was taught, a 7 year old who knows a little, or an infant who knows nothing. The sacrament still occurs with the matter and form.

For a majority of Latin Rite Catholics, confirmation usually comes during the early teen years in the US at least. So I hope Meltzerboy will comment and educate us here.

Although this sounds reasonable to me, I don’t know that this is true. For least 10 dioceses in the United States, the standard confirmation age is 7 or 8. In the Latin Rite diocese that is local, some parishes confirm in 6th grade (around 12) and other parishes do not confirm until the junior year of high school (around 16). In the Los Angeles Archdiocese, Confirmation preparation is a two-year process, which does not begin until the 9th grade. Even in the Latin Rite, children of any age (including infants) who have not yet received the Sacrament are to be confirmed in danger of death. I’ve heard of parishes that confirm in 5th grade. There really isn’t any standard age. I have no idea what the mean age might be, but I suspect you are right and “early teen years” would probably cover it. Regardless, Bar Mitzvah occurs at the age of 13 and Bar Mitzvah at the age of 12. There is no variation in the age. Of course, age is really irrelevant to Confirmation, from a sacramental point of view.

 

[Reclaim]

and how does all this help a high school student write a paper comparing bar/bat mitzvah to confirmation? One can quote all the finer points of what order and age they want but I live a a pretty big arch dioscese and confirmation age is the early teens which is the age of bar/bat miztvah which likewise corresponds with Protestant’s confirmation when it is practiced. I think too often CAF posters are too interested in showing off their “knowledge” and ability to quote CCC or other church documents instead of helping with the original question at hand.

Confirmation has nothing to do with “coming of age”

 

[robwar]

I also wish that Jewish members could weigh in on this discussion. It is my understanding that Bar/Bat Mitzvah is automatic, based upon age (13 for boys, 12 for girls). The religious ceremony, which involves study and prep, is optional. The ceremony is an acknowledgement that the person has become a Bat/Bar Mitzvah.

I suppose that is a parallel of sort to Confirmation, in a very stretched sort of way. When a person is confirmed, they receive the Grace of the sacrament, regardless of age, preparation or knowledge. The Sacrament occurs, whether the recipient is a teenager who has diligently attended classes for 2 years and learned everything that was taught, a 7 year old who knows a little, or an infant who knows nothing. The sacrament still occurs with the matter and form.

Although this sounds reasonable to me, I don’t know that this is true. For least 10 dioceses in the United States, the standard confirmation age is 7 or 8. In the Latin Rite diocese that is local, some parishes confirm in 6th grade (around 12) and other parishes do not confirm until the junior year of high school (around 16). In the Los Angeles Archdiocese, Confirmation preparation is a two-year process, which does not begin until the 9th grade. Even in the Latin Rite, children of any age (including infants) who have not yet received the Sacrament are to be confirmed in danger of death. I’ve heard of parishes that confirm in 5th grade. There really isn’t any standard age. I have no idea what the mean age might be, but I suspect you are right and “early teen years” would probably cover it. Regardless, Bar Mitzvah occurs at the age of 13 and Bar Mitzvah at the age of 12. There is no variation in the age. Of course, age is really irrelevant to Confirmation, from a sacramental point of view.

I think that in Judiasm, it varies between the reformed, conservative and Orthodox. My understanding is that the Orthodox put quite of bit of study and seriousness to it. I think the reformed is more focused on a celebration and there is quite a bit of social pressure to have parties out do each other costing as much as a wedding in some places that are more well to do. I think that there is a reading from the Torah and a mini talk given on the passage. Again how much emphasis and study that goes into it varies by what branch of Judiasm it is. When my sons were confirmed, it was emphasized that if they were not ready, to put it off. Likewise, it was to be the child’s decision not the parents and they wanted it to be of their free will. I think as in any mile stone religious ceremony, people can get too caught up in parties, celebrations etc. I think that is why those of us outside of Judiasm may have that view of the bar/bat Mitzvahs and not realize that there is more to it than that. It really would be good for our Jewish friends to comment here.

 

[babochka]

and how does all this help a high school student write a paper comparing bar/bat mitzvah to confirmation? One can quote all the finer points of what order and age they want

I’ve been thinking about this question and about the OPs question. I think that in writing this paper, it is important to ask several questions:

How does the Jewish faith define a Bar Mitzvah?
How does the Catholic Church define Confirmation?
What are the essential elements of a Bar Mitzvah?
What are the essential elements of Confirmation?
What is the purpose of a Bar Mitzvah and what is the purpose of Confirmation?
What non-essential elements of each are commonly practiced and how do they vary from culture to culture, rite to rite?
What is the purpose of the non-essential elements and how do they support or confuse the understanding of the religious event?
How is each commonly understood by the adherents of each religion and by outsiders, and does this differ from the official understanding in each faith?

You say that age is arguing a finer point. I’m saying that age is a non-essential element and that focusing on the sacrament occurring in many places during the early teen years confuses our understanding of the sacrament. It is entirely extraneous to the reception of the sacrament and makes no difference whatsoever.

As to Shavout, a term with which I was not familiar, if it is indeed the Jewish feast of Pentecost, it would seem that Confirmation is related to Shavout, at least in the Christian meaning of the feast. On Pentecost, we celebrate the coming of the Holy Spirit to the apostles, a time in which they were strengthened to carry out the task ahead of them. This is precisely what Confirmation is about; the Holy Spirit comes to us in a personal Pentecost. Now, it is my understanding that the only relationship between the Jewish feast of Pentecost and the Christian feast of Pentecost is that the original event happened to fall on the Jewish feast. Our celebration of Pentecost is not related to the Jewish feast in meaning or celebration.