SHE shall Crush the Head

[trth_skr]

Based on the question from this thread, I dredged up this analysis of how different Bible translations handle Genesis 3:15. My personal favorite article on this topic is by Rick Salbado. Read this first if you have time. The following will make more sense if you do.

I was interested in how foreign translations handled this, and came up with the follwoing. I would be interested in other people who speak other languages adding to this list. If you know French, Greek, Russian, etc. please contribute.

…I did a survey of some Spanish and German translations, wondering how non-English Bibles handled it. Here is some correspondence I was having a couple of years ago with the results:

I noted that [at least modern] Jewish scholars translate: “they shall…”, referring to the “seed”…

I also looked at modern German and Spanish texts. I am not a scholar in either, but I studied some German, and my wife is a Spanish speaker (I speak a little).

The two modern German translations (Elderfelber and Hoffnung fur Alle) use “he”. I am less clear on Luther’s, but it appears he is saying the [masculine] same (i.e., it the former with masculine connotation, Der selbe. Selbe can change gender based on context). I am not clear if the masculine refers to Him or the [masculine] seed (Der Samine). Liklely it refers to the seed.

The Spanish have an easier time. Because of their grammatical structure and a coincidence, they can represent the phrase with the same type of vagueness that the Hebrew connotes.One translation says (translated)

and the [previous singular femenine noun] shall crush your head, and you shall strike the [no possesive gender connoted] heel…

It turns out the former feminine noun could be the Woman or the [singular feminie gender] Seed, (La Simiente). The reason it points to the former is because in Spanish, it is not necassary to say the pronoun (it is inferred, like the Hebrew). The form of the verb (esta = he/she/it is) connotates the sense.

I do not know if the seed (Simiente) can change gender based on context. Usually this does not occur in Spanish. In case you speak Spanish, the typical phrase is:

Pondré enemistad entre ti y la mujer,
y entre tu simiente y la simiente suya;
esta te herirá en la cabeza,
y tú la herirás en el talón.

My wife’s first reading without further questioning from me interpreted the phrase as the Woman would crush the head. This occured in the Reina-Valera 1960, 1995, and Antigua versions. I suspect (but do not know) that these versions may have been translated from the Latin.

Some of the modern editions all referred to “the seed crushing…” or “her descendants crushing…” This includes the Nueva Version Internacional, and Dios Hable Hoy translations.

Only one I came across in this cursory search (the La Bibilia Las Americas) used the phrase “He shall crush…”.

Mark
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[Verbum]

Hi Mark,

The translation which were done from the Vulgate have “she”. The others reference the “seed” : it or he.

Between the Council of Trent and Pius XII Catholic translations only could be done from the Vulgate. This was a (wrong) interpretation of the Council of Trent, which Pius XII corrected in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.

As pointed out, the Vulgate was in error on this point.

Verbum

 

[trumpet152]

Verbum:

Hi Mark,

The translation which were done from the Vulgate have “she”. The others reference the “seed” : it or he.

Between the Council of Trent and Pius XII Catholic translations only could be done from the Vulgate. This was a (wrong) interpretation of the Council of Trent, which Pius XII corrected in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.

As pointed out, the Vulgate was in error on this point.

Verbum

Exactly. The Hebrew word is hu meaning “he.”

 

[kleary]

Verbum:

Hi Mark,

The translation which were done from the Vulgate have “she”. The others reference the “seed” : it or he.

Between the Council of Trent and Pius XII Catholic translations only could be done from the Vulgate. This was a (wrong) interpretation of the Council of Trent, which Pius XII corrected in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.

As pointed out, the Vulgate was in error on this point.

Verbum

I do not believe so. Jerome translates the Hebrew pronoun into Latin as “ipsa” which is feminine “She”. The newer translations come from translating the Hebrew into English.

Jerome who was alive back in the fourth century and who translated the Hebrew into Latin knew how words were used back then and what they meant.

The Council of Trent codefied the Latin Vulgate and no Pope or future “council” can ever overturn Trent and say Trent was wrong on codefying the Latin Vulgate translation as a true and authentic translation.

“But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.”

Ken

 

[kleary]

trumpet152:

Exactly. The Hebrew word is hu meaning “he.”

That is if you look at the Hebrew TODAY and translate it TODAY from Hebrew into English.

As said before Jerome was alive closer to the time of the Apostles than any of us so he knew how to translate the Hebrew text.

Ken

 

[trth_skr]

Verbum:

Hi Mark,

The translation which were done from the Vulgate have “she”. The others reference the “seed” : it or he.

Between the Council of Trent and Pius XII Catholic translations only could be done from the Vulgate. This was a (wrong) interpretation of the Council of Trent, which Pius XII corrected in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu.

As pointed out, the Vulgate was in error on this point.

Verbum

Can you quote where it was pointed out that the Vulgate was in error? I think it is still an open question. Read this:

unitypublishing.com/SheWillCrush.htm

(this is what should have been linked to the name Rick Salbado in my opening post).

Jerome conciuously made the decision to choose “she”. Moderrn translations use the unjustified and certainly unliteral “he”. The King James used the more neutral (and protestant friendly) “it”. Some modern jewish translations use “they” (highly interpretative). This thread was intended to talk about translations in other languages, but hey, its still the same topic.

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[trth_skr]

kleary:

…
The Council of Trent codefied the Latin Vulgate and no Pope or future “council” can ever overturn Trent and say Trent was wrong on codefying the Latin Vulgate translation as a true and authentic translation.

…Ken

It is for that reason, and the whole subject here (i.e. She vs. he / it / they :tsktsk: ) that I prefer the Douay Rheims English translation, personally. I realize the verse is ambiguous, but I will go with Jerome!

Mark Wyatt
www.veritas-catholic.blogspot.com

 

[hurst]

I recently read that the Vulgate has “she”, but the Septuagint has “he”. The Vulgate actually corrected the Septuagint, which had other errors as well.

Either way, whether “he” her seed, or “she” by means of her seed, it involves Mary the Woman and Jesus the Seed cooperating together. Let us not separate Mary and Jesus.

hurst

 

[trumpet152]

kleary:

That is if you look at the Hebrew TODAY and translate it TODAY from Hebrew into English.

As said before Jerome was alive closer to the time of the Apostles than any of us so he knew how to translate the Hebrew text.

Ken

Not true. I don’t even know modern Hebrew. I am speaking of Biblical Hebrew. Hu means “he.” End of argument.

A translation of the Hebrew manuscripts (the Vulgate) cannot be held above the Hebrew manuscripts. Jerome was human; he made a mistake.