Sheep Outside in December

[Brian_Crane]

An old standby for fundamentalists and others who object to observing Christmas on December 25 is that shepherds would never have flocks out at night in Bethlehem in December. So Christ was certainly not born in December, they say, because it contradicts scripture. And then they talk about paganism blah, blah, blah. “Never” is the word usually used in order to just shut down any debate whatsoever…basically implying you’re stupid to suggest otherwise.

However, I’ve read quite a bit online about keeping sheep outside year round, and it appears to me that it can be done, and that it is occasionally (or perhaps often) done, especially in moderate climates. Sheep are pretty insulated, it seems, and can withstand cold temperatures pretty well. I don’t think Bethlehem is exceedingly cold in late December (it may be slightly colder than the Sacramento Valley, where I live, which is mild) and even if you had a little lean-to or three sided shelter for storms, that’s still outside where shepherds, back in the day, would have to keep watch.

Am I correct about this? Its certainly false to say shepherds would **never **have been outside at night keeping watch…right? I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Brian,

I think the simple answer is “who knows?” Certainly there could have been sheep and shepherds out on a winter night. And if God so intended. . . then. . . well even if it were unusual (it may not be unusual), would it be so surprising?

The issue, though, isn’t really about the probability of sheep outside in winter. Those who point to this only do so to bolster there rejection of Christmas as a celebration. No date would be acceptable. My understanding is that this is because Christ’s birth isn’t celebrated in the Bible, that they have concerns over any pagan roots to the celebration, and for some it may be fueled by knowing or unwitting anti-Catholicism.

The earliest appearance of the the “no sheep in winter” argument I’ve seen is from an anti-Catholic book called the Two Babylons (1850’s?).

I think that the logical conclusion also entails the rejection of Easter. And, perhaps, praying to Christ. (Does anyone in scripture pray to Christ? Anyone know? It just occurred to me.)

Oh – also I suppose wedding rings should be verboten.

VC

 

[jediliz]

well, what we DO know is that mary was visited in the 6th month of the jewish Calendar…which which have been March or April. Anne Catherine Emmerich’s private revelations actually say it would have been around November that he was born…

I say its very possible they had the sheep out. He wasn’t born in Alaska or another place that would have been bitterly cold.

 

[bmonk]

Sheep could have been outside in December–but it would have been more likely that the shepherds kept watch due to lambing–which would put the historical birth probably in Spring.

Given that, who would want to celebrate Christmas during Lent, or at Eastertime?

Since the biblical accounts do not give definite information, but only hint at the historical date, and since that date is lost to us, we chose another verse to assign the date: John the Baptist said, “He must increase and I must decrease” (John 3:30). In the early Church they used the sun as a sign of this: Jesus’ birth was celebrated when the sun was beginning to increase; John’s birth when the sun was beginning to decrease, particularly since they were just six months apart.

 

[Corki]

Here in Texas, sheep are outside year round. (goats too) Most of the middle east is warmer than Texas so I don’t think the rationale holds that sheep couldn’t be out in December.

 

[Matrix_Refugee]

Here in Texas, sheep are outside year round. (goats too) Most of the middle east is warmer than Texas so I don’t think the rationale holds that sheep couldn’t be out in December.

Mmm, Israel/Palestine is at about the same latitude as North Carolina here in the States, so it might get cold in December, but it’s nothing like, say, winter in New England. Plus, sheep Have Woolly Coats that keep them nice and toasty.

I also read somewhere that the shepherds might have been Bedouins, a nomadic tribe found in North Africa and the Middle East, who pretty much travel around with their flocks of sheep and goats, and as such, since they don’t keep their sheep in permanent sheep folds, they tend to take shifts keeping an eye on the sheep against thieves, wolves, etc.

 

[jilly4ski]

Where else would they would have kept them? They surely didn’t have barns big enough to hold all the sheep did they. (Not to mention most sheep herders where semi nomadic, think when Moses, lived in tents when he was a sheep herder).

Not to mention it probably wasn’t that cool in the winter there. It is not like it even got below freezing over night.

Last, does it matter when we celebrate Christ’s birth? My own birthday is dec 30th. Often I would not receive presents until June 30th. Did that make a sin to celebrate my birthday then? Of course not, we can choose to celebrate the birth of Christ anytime we want to. Thus the Church in her wisdom decided that Dec 25 was a good day to commemorate the Birth of Christ.

 

[Evan]

The Church has never taught Jesus was born on Dec 25. Some may have had that opinion, but my understanding is that every month of the year has been proposed as the month Jesus was born.

The Church celebrates the birth of Christ on 25 Dec, not his birthday, but the birth.

We also have a day when we celebrate the birth of John the Baptist. We have no information when he was born, so a day was chosen for theological reasons. Near the longest day of the year. The day decreases each day from then until the celebration of the birth of Christ, also chosen for theological reasons. Not for physical reasons.

 

[_Abyssinia]

What About The Flocks Outside In Winter?

One objection to the date of December 25th is that the shepherds are tending their flocks by night when the announcement comes of the birth of Christ. It is argued that it would be too cold for them to have their flocks outside in the winter. Therefore it must have been some other time of year. However, this often-used argument does not hold much weight. There is evidence both ancient and modern that flocks stayed outside year round.

There Is Evidence That Flocks Were Outside All Year Round

There is a passage in the Jewish Mishnah [Shekalim 7:4] that stated that some sheep were kept outside of the fields of Bethlehem all year round. These sheep were to be used for sacrifice in the temple in Jerusalem. Therefore it is possible that the birth of Jesus could have come on any day of the year.

There Is Modern Evidence Of Flocks Outside In Winter

Shepherds in the Bethlehem area, to this very day, keep their flocks out at night during all times of the year. Anyone visiting Bethlehem around Christmas time can still see the sheep outside with the shepherds.

blueletterbible.org/faq/don_stewart/stewart.cfm?id=195

 

[Arizona_Mike]

The Church has never taught Jesus was born on Dec 25. Some may have had that opinion, but my understanding is that every month of the year has been proposed as the month Jesus was born.

The Church celebrates the birth of Christ on 25 Dec, not his birthday, but the birth.

We also have a day when we celebrate the birth of John the Baptist. We have no information when he was born, so a day was chosen for theological reasons. Near the longest day of the year. The day decreases each day from then until the celebration of the birth of Christ, also chosen for theological reasons. Not for physical reasons.

Exactly right. A feast day is to commemorate an event, even if we don’t know for sure the exact day it happened, and it is often set to coincide with another event. Thus, we don’t know the date of Christ’s Transfiguration before the apostles, but we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity on August 6th, because that was the date in 1456 when news reached Rome that the Ottoman invaders had been repulsed at the Siege of Belgrade. So, Pope Callixtus III chose that date to celebrate the Feast Day of the Transfiguration, as an honor to the defenders of Belgrade.

Technically, it’s “The Feast of the Nativity” on the liturgical calendar, not Christmas.

Birthdays held no special significance in the middle east at the time Jesus was born, especially to the common folk (they didn’t celebrate birthday parties, Jews didn’t trust horoscopes, and you didn’t have an ID card it went on), so it wasn’t considered important. That’s true now in many cultures, too - many people from the middle east who were born in poverty don’t know their DOB, and will either use January 1 or just make one up when they come to the U.S.

If we don’t know the true birth date of an adopted child, we usually pick a date or use the date they are adopted or some date with special significance. Just because we don’t know the DOB of the child, that’s no reason not to celebrate it.

I’ve never understood why atheists, pagans, and some fundamentalists think this is an important issue.

 

[Faith1960]

The Church has never taught Jesus was born on Dec 25. Some may have had that opinion, but my understanding is that every month of the year has been proposed as the month Jesus was born.

That’s interesting; I didn’t know that. I’d heard His birthdray could’ve been in either Spring or Fall.

 

[Warrenton]

Am I correct about this? Its certainly false to say shepherds would **never **have been outside at night keeping watch…right? I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

We have sheep. They are outside as we write. As long as it is not raining or snowing, sheep do quite well outside. In fact, they do better outside than inside because they are sensitive to dust.

They may have been less sensitive 2000 years ago, but then they probably were more able to withstand the cold, too.

Sheep, at one time, were wild - like bighorns, or chamois in the Alps. They have to tough it out all year long, right?

Labor was cheap, 2000 years ago. Slavery depresses the value of labor. No doubt the rich could afford to send shepherds to watch the flocks even in winter. Remember the prodigal son? He took a job as a swineherd, our Lord told us, just to glean the swill of the pigs he watched.

Lean times they were.

 

[Warrenton]

Plus, sheep Have Woolly Coats that keep them nice and toasty.

Wooly beyond belief.

And if you plan on penning your flock, you better have enough hay.

Palestine is not known as one of the world’s great hay markets, then or now.

This is not to say our Lord was born in December, just that the sheep argument is not particularly strong.

One argument for a winter birth is that the stable would have been more likely to be stocked with fodder for bedding and water. Obviously, our Lady needed water during and after the birth. Plus, it would have been warmer because animals were inside. Also, one would probably not want to spend much time in a stable in the Holy Land in high summer, unless the structure were particularly freshly cleaned.

St. Joseph was a countryman, and would have known these things.

 

[Pwrlftr]

Tonight in Tel Aviv it will be a low of 45 deg F. While I don’t know anything about sheep or farming 45 degrees isn’t that cold.

Also, perhaps there was a warming trend at the time Jesus was born?

 

[thistle]

Nobody knows the exact date that Jesus was born and it is not relevant. It has no impact on our faith or salvation what month or date he was born.
The Church simply chose a date to celebrate the birth. It makes no difference if that date is his real birth date or not.

 

[puzzleannie]

An old standby for fundamentalists and others who object to observing Christmas on December 25 is that shepherds would never have flocks out at night in Bethlehem in December. So Christ was certainly not born in December, they say, because it contradicts scripture…

National Geographic had an issue a while back on shepherds in Israel and the middle East, and Bedouin life in general, and yes commonly shepherds and sheep are outside in that region, except in the coldest weather and the (rare) snow, where they are gathered into caves or rough sheepfolds. The 23rd psalm verses punctuated the text of the modern day photographs, it was an excellent article in general especially on how little that way of life has changed for that ever shrinking group of people.

 

[Evan]

That’s interesting; I didn’t know that. I’d heard His birthdray could’ve been in either Spring or Fall.

Some have proposed Dec 25 or Jan 6 is 9 months after possible days of Crucifixion (March 25 or April 6) and it was thought he was conceived on the same day as his death, so both Dec 25 and Jan 6 proposed as DOB( both in winter).

In religioustolerance.org/xmas_date.htm the writer proposes the fall (Sep Oct Nov or Early Dec)

In answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110918114339AAJfC7e the writer proposes the spring (March April May early June)

So from these 3 theories we have he was born in Jan March April May June Sept Oct Nov or Dec. If I keep looking I think I could find someone who proposes Feb July or Aug to fill in the rest of the year.

 

[Brian_Crane]

Thank you everyone for your replies. You have buttressed everything I have thought. Some guy on a protestant forum just renewed the annual “Christmas is pagan” theme, right on schedule. He repeated the charge that shepherds would never be outside at night in December. I gave him a link from a Wisconsin veterinarian that actually recommends sheep be outside, as well as a picture of a sheep herd in Palestine on Dec. 7 where the folks were wearing short sleeved shirts, as well as my own experience growing up in N. California where the sheep are outside as well. After all this proof, he merely repeated “shepherds would never be outside at night” and someone, who I respected much more than this guy actually agreed with him. So I just wanted some affirmation, I guess.

I understand that nothing stands or falls on a Dec 25 birth, but it is a big deal to some people who have a mindset that Catholicism is pagan, and being on a protestant forum for many years now, there are plenty of folks who have that mindset. I think its important, for their sakes, to rebut false ideas that lead to false ideologies. If I can confidently knock down the shepherd strawman, then I can move on to talking about everything else involved in the Christmas is pagan myth.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

he merely repeated “shepherds would never be outside at night”

Brian,

I don’t understand. . . wouldn’t that contradict scripture?

VC

 

[bmonk]

Nobody knows the exact date that Jesus was born and it is not relevant. It has no impact on our faith or salvation what month or date he was born.
The Church simply chose a date to celebrate the birth. It makes no difference if that date is his real birth date or not.

Heck–considering that King Herod was alive to try to kill Jesus, and he died in 4 B.C., we know that we even got the year wrong! Does it matter? Not really!