Sheep Outside in December

[patrick457]

Heck–considering that King Herod was alive to try to kill Jesus, and he died in 4 B.C., we know that we even got the year wrong! Does it matter? Not really!

And we don’t even know the exact year Jesus died, or how long His ministry lasted, and etc. etc.

 

[patrick457]

And just to mention this: while most of Christendom now celebrates the Nativity on 25th December, the Armenians even today commemorate Սուրբ Ծնունդ (Surb Tsnund) on 6th January, which during the time of the pilgrim Egeria (AD 385) was also the date when both the Nativity and the Baptism were commemorated in Bethlehem itself and in Jerusalem; her contemporary St. Epiphanius of Salamis in modern Cyprus could still speak of the day as being Christ’s “birthday; that is, His Epiphany.” Even in the beginning of the 5th century, Saint John Cassian mentioned that Egyptian monasteries celebrated the Nativity and Baptism together on 6th January. While the West has apparently separated the commemoration of the Nativity and the commemoration of the manifestation of Christ by having them assigned in separate dates, the East took a little longer to do so - and as the example of the Armenians show, commemorating them all together was something that was never totally supplanted. And way before that, Clement of Alexandria in the 3rd century wrote that a group in Egypt celebrated the Nativity on 25 Pashons (20th May). So as we can see, it wasn’t a very big deal for early Christians either, if they could choose to commemorate Jesus’ birth in different dates.

 

[paperwight66]

Brian,

I don’t understand. . . wouldn’t that contradict scripture?

VC

No. The discussion is about the claim made by some Protestants that Catholics are wrong to celebrate Christmas in December, because sheep/shepherds wouldn’t be outside in December. Some Protestants criticise Catholics because it looks like they are celebrating a pre-existing pagan feast by celebrating Christmas then.

We are not told when Jesus was born, still less that there was snow on the ground and the usual ‘in the bleak midwinter’ picture painted in carols.

Posters are pointing out that, on the contrary, it is possible to have sheep out in winter, but that anyway, Dec. 25th is a traditional date chosen to balance out the Church year. We just don’t know.
The actual date doesn’t matter, ultimately. All that matters is that Jesus was born.

Personally, I’m convinced by the argument that it was early spring, and the shepherds were out watching the ewes in case any were giving birth and needed help.

 

[neophyte]

Among the Jews there is a pious tradition that Rosh Hashanah marks the birthday of the world, and the day of the incident with Abraham, Isaac and the ram.

If it turns out that Jesus was born on Rosh Hashana, I won’t be surprised.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

No. The discussion is about the claim made by some Protestants that Catholics are wrong to celebrate Christmas in December, because sheep/shepherds wouldn’t be outside in December.

Paperwright,

I asked because originally Brian set up the problem as you say: someone claimed that shepherds wouldn’t be outside at night in December.

Then Brian mentioned that he showed them evidence of sheep outside in December (a picture of the Holy Land showing it, a Vet’s opinion, etc). Brian then mentioned that his interlocutors responded that “shepherd would never be out AT NIGHT”. I.e. He seemed to accept a possibility of a herd of sheep in December but not at night.

I asked – doesn’t that contradict scripture though?

VC

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Nobody knows the exact date that Jesus was born and it is not relevant. It has no impact on our faith or salvation what month or date he was born.
The Church simply chose a date to celebrate the birth. It makes no difference if that date is his real birth date or not.

Anyone who doubts that December 25th really WAS the date of Christ’s birth needs to see this presentation. It will blow your mind, and give you faith that God really does have a plan for the world.

bethlehemstar.net/

 

[fred_conty]

The Shepherd story says that they were watching their flock by night. Now night means
everything living settles down and goes to sleep. However at night is when the wolves begin their hunt. So the shepherds would were probably watching for wolves.

December 25 was the day the pegans celebrated the sun god. And it was a big day.
The early Christians had nothing to celebrate about since they didn’t believe in pegan gods, and so to speak, were left out of a big day. So they began to celebrate the Son of God on the 25th in unison of that pegan holiday. I’ve heard this a number of times over the years but I couldn’t document that.

And I also heard that a number of christian days of celebration were made that way, that is, to correspond to national days of celebration of one kind or another. Sort of baptising them.

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

[Brian_Crane]

Paperwright,

I asked because originally Brian set up the problem as you say: someone claimed that shepherds wouldn’t be outside at night in December.

Then Brian mentioned that he showed them evidence of sheep outside in December (a picture of the Holy Land showing it, a Vet’s opinion, etc). Brian then mentioned that his interlocutors responded that “shepherd would never be out AT NIGHT”. I.e. He seemed to accept a possibility of a herd of sheep in December but not at night.

I asked – doesn’t that contradict scripture though?

VC

Well I’m pretty sure my interlocutor (and others like him) accepts the premise that shepherds guarded their flocks outside at night during most of the year. What he does not accept though, and in fact flatly rejects, even with a mountain evidence in front of him, is that shepherds would guard their flocks outside at night in the “bitter December cold.”

 

[jilly4ski]

Well I’m pretty sure my interlocutor (and others like him) accepts the premise that shepherds guarded their flocks outside at night during most of the year. What he does not accept though, and in fact flatly rejects, even with a mountain evidence in front of him, is that shepherds would guard their flocks outside at night in the “bitter December cold.”

Just ask him for the average temperatures for December in south central Israel 2000 years ago.Answer: Currently temperatures barely get below freezing in January the coldest month. I wouldn’t be surprised if temperatures were a few degrees warmer then. Definitely not an impossible feat for most people,

Then ask him what the shepherd’s were were wearing at such a time. What did they have the most access too? Answer: Wool.

 

[patrick457]

Well I’m pretty sure my interlocutor (and others like him) accepts the premise that shepherds guarded their flocks outside at night during most of the year. What he does not accept though, and in fact flatly rejects, even with a mountain evidence in front of him, is that shepherds would guard their flocks outside at night in the “bitter December cold.”

Not to sound snarky or anything, but IMHO many of the folks who perpetuate this claim seem tn either have never raised sheep themselves or have never been to the Holy Land.

 

[jcrichton]

An old standby for fundamentalists and others who object to observing Christmas on December 25 is that shepherds would never have flocks out at night in Bethlehem in December. So Christ was certainly not born in December, they say, because it contradicts scripture. And then they talk about paganism blah, blah, blah. “Never” is the word usually used in order to just shut down any debate whatsoever…basically implying you’re stupid to suggest otherwise.

However, I’ve read quite a bit online about keeping sheep outside year round, and it appears to me that it can be done, and that it is occasionally (or perhaps often) done, especially in moderate climates. Sheep are pretty insulated, it seems, and can withstand cold temperatures pretty well. I don’t think Bethlehem is exceedingly cold in late December (it may be slightly colder than the Sacramento Valley, where I live, which is mild) and even if you had a little lean-to or three sided shelter for storms, that’s still outside where shepherds, back in the day, would have to keep watch.

Am I correct about this? Its certainly false to say shepherds would **never **have been outside at night keeping watch…right? I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

Hi, Brian!

I think that the problem lies not in fact but in the temerity of rejecting the Authority of the Church…

Here’s an excerpt from a site posted by a veterinary?:

littlehats.net/gessert01.html

In most of the sheep raising parts of the country, winters are cold and snowy. While this may be a problem for shepherds, the sheep tolerate winter conditions quite well. There is no need to house wooled sheep indoors during the cold winter months. I repeat, there is no need to house wooled sheep indoors during the winter!

Sheep have some very effective ways of keeping warm. Their wool insulates them, holding in body heat and resisting the penetration of water. Those of you in snowy climates have seen sheep with a fresh layer of snow on their backs. The reason it doesn’t melt right away is because the body heat is kept in by the fleece. In addition, the process of rumination, with its fermentation of fibrous materials, generates a great deal of heat. The more forage a ruminant eats, the more heat its body produces. Pregnant ewes, in which growth of the fetus results in heat production, stay even warmer as their pregnancy progresses. In fact, ewes carrying multiple fetuses have to increase their respiratory rate just to get rid of body heat. This is one of the reasons they benefit from shearing during the last six weeks of gestation.

Keeping sheep outside during the winter benefits both the sheep and the shepherd. The sheep benefit from better ventilation and increased exercise. Most of the cases of respiratory disease that I treat in sheep occur in animals that are housed in a barn during cold weather. The cause is the build-up of moisture and ammonia in the air. The ammonia damages the lining of the respiratory tract, interfering with its resistance to infection, and the stale moist air transmits viruses and bacteria into the airways. This combination of factors leads to coughing, sinus infections, bronchitis and pneumonia. Just like kids in a daycare, when one gets sick the infection is easily spread to the rest of the group. Sheep that live outdoors breath fresh drier air and are not exposed to ammonia fumes. Bronchitis and pneumonia in these animals is rare. The major benefit to the shepherd, besides having fewer sick sheep, is not having to clean the barn. This saves time and energy, both of which are generally at a premium on the farms I visit.

…I may be wrong… but wouldn’t Jesus’ contemporaries not know these very same factors about the sheeps they herded? …further, Scriptures did not say that there were people in the fields but shepherds caring for their flocks–does that not imply that these men were knowledgeable about the task at hand (when to keep them in the open and when to herd them into a shelter)?

…from my perspective, these anti-CHRIST-mas people are more concerned with finding fault, actual or perceived, than with finding out the Truth!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[wiggbuggie]

actually, the church I go to has a stable to recreate Jesus birth and they have live sheep there…

 

[jcrichton]

Exactly right. A feast day is to commemorate an event, even if we don’t know for sure the exact day it happened, and it is often set to coincide with another event. Thus, we don’t know the date of Christ’s Transfiguration before the apostles, but we celebrate the Feast of the Nativity on August 6th, because that was the date in 1456 when news reached Rome that the Ottoman invaders had been repulsed at the Siege of Belgrade. So, Pope Callixtus III chose that date to celebrate the Feast Day of the Transfiguration, as an honor to the defenders of Belgrade.

Technically, it’s “The Feast of the Nativity” on the liturgical calendar, not Christmas.

Birthdays held no special significance in the middle east at the time Jesus was born, especially to the common folk (they didn’t celebrate birthday parties, Jews didn’t trust horoscopes, and you didn’t have an ID card it went on), so it wasn’t considered important. That’s true now in many cultures, too - many people from the middle east who were born in poverty don’t know their DOB, and will either use January 1 or just make one up when they come to the U.S.

If we don’t know the true birth date of an adopted child, we usually pick a date or use the date they are adopted or some date with special significance. Just because we don’t know the DOB of the child, that’s no reason not to celebrate it.

I’ve never understood why atheists, pagans, and some fundamentalists think this is an important issue.

…it could well be as simple as: “…if the Church is wrong about Dec 25… then the Church is wrong about other things!”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jmcrae]

Well I’m pretty sure my interlocutor (and others like him) accepts the premise that shepherds guarded their flocks outside at night during most of the year. What he does not accept though, and in fact flatly rejects, even with a mountain evidence in front of him, is that shepherds would guard their flocks outside at night in the “bitter December cold.”

It only gets “bitterly cold” in the far North and in the Antarctic. Israel is, from what I understand, a temperate climate. They don’t really get very cold over there. Let’s put it this way - if you’d be fine going outside in a wool sweater, then so would the sheep from whose wool you got the sweater.

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you everyone for your replies. You have buttressed everything I have thought. Some guy on a protestant forum just renewed the annual “Christmas is pagan” theme, right on schedule. He repeated the charge that shepherds would never be outside at night in December. I gave him a link from a Wisconsin veterinarian that actually recommends sheep be outside, as well as a picture of a sheep herd in Palestine on Dec. 7 where the folks were wearing short sleeved shirts, as well as my own experience growing up in N. California where the sheep are outside as well. After all this proof, he merely repeated “shepherds would never be outside at night” and someone, who I respected much more than this guy actually agreed with him. So I just wanted some affirmation, I guess.

I understand that nothing stands or falls on a Dec 25 birth, but it is a big deal to some people who have a mindset that Catholicism is pagan, and being on a protestant forum for many years now, there are plenty of folks who have that mindset. I think its important, for their sakes, to rebut false ideas that lead to false ideologies. If I can confidently knock down the shepherd strawman, then I can move on to talking about everything else involved in the Christmas is pagan myth.

…sadly, many non-Catholics would nevev, knowingly, embrace anything Catholic (so don’t tell them that the Bible was a work of the church); …and while they willingly accept almost any though/belief, even that which contradicts Scriptures, it must be in a form that seems disassociated with the Church (i.e: sola Scriptura/sola Fideli… but Luther was not Catholic and his theology is without fault!)…

I suggest that you do heavy praying, before, during and after your engagements!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Heck–considering that King Herod was alive to try to kill Jesus, and he died in 4 B.C., we know that we even got the year wrong! Does it matter? Not really!

…and do you recall (from high school) the manner in which the calendars were kept? …it’s a wonder that a Catholic organized the format that we have in use today: three hundred-sixty five (plus a leap one) closely packed days that fit nicely in a twelve-month calendar!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No. The discussion is about the claim made by some Protestants that Catholics are wrong to celebrate Christmas in December, because sheep/shepherds wouldn’t be outside in December. Some Protestants criticise Catholics because it looks like they are celebrating a pre-existing pagan feast by celebrating Christmas then.

We are not told when Jesus was born, still less that there was snow on the ground and the usual ‘in the bleak midwinter’ picture painted in carols.

Posters are pointing out that, on the contrary, it is possible to have sheep out in winter, but that anyway, Dec. 25th is a traditional date chosen to balance out the Church year. We just don’t know.
The actual date doesn’t matter, ultimately. All that matters is that Jesus was born.

Personally, I’m convinced by the argument that it was early spring, and the shepherds were out watching the ewes in case any were giving birth and needed help.

…don’t forget the “sitting ducks” (sheeps left unattended) that would attract both human and non-human predatory animals… both of these dangers would, undoubtedly,
be present all year long!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[TheRealJuliane]

…it could well be as simple as: “…if the Church is wrong about Dec 25… then the Church is wrong about other things!”

Maran atha!

Angel

But the Church isn’t wrong about December 25th. Explore the website I put in my earlier post. There’s a reason why the star was real and why it really did appear when Jesus was born, and that was December 25th. I believe it.

 

[fred_conty]

I have never read or heard anywhere from church authority that Christ’s birthday was absolutely on December 25th historically. I believe this day was settled on because of the
liturgy and that the universal church be in sync. Anybody here know anything definitively more?

 

[jcrichton]

Anyone who doubts that December 25th really WAS the date of Christ’s birth needs to see this presentation. It will blow your mind, and give you faith that God really does have a plan for the world.

bethlehemstar.net/

…is that not the program that ran on EWTN, narrated by the lawyer? …it it is, I loved it! …just think, Mathematics and Astronomy has the Incarnation embeded in it! …just leave it to Yahweh God to Prove His Word: Romans 1:20!

Maran atha!

Angel