Sheep Outside in December

[Whadyamean]

*It was, as several sources attest, originally a pagan holiday. This from Christianhistory.net:
*

For the church’s first three centuries, Christmas wasn’t in December—or on the calendar at all.

Elesha Coffman

It’s very tough for us North Americans to imagine Mary and Joseph trudging to Bethlehem in anything but, as Christina Rosetti memorably described it, “the bleak mid-winter,” surrounded by “snow on snow on snow.” To us, Christmas and December are inseparable. But for the first three centuries of Christianity, Christmas wasn’t in December—or on the calendar anywhere.

If observed at all, the celebration of Christ’s birth was usually lumped in with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church’s earliest established feasts. Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Origen (c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

Not all of Origen’s contemporaries agreed that Christ’s birthday shouldn’t be celebrated, and some began to speculate on the date (actual records were apparently long lost). Clement of Alexandria (c.150-c.215) favored May 20 but noted that others had argued for April 18, April 19, and May 28. Hippolytus (c.170-c.236) championed January 2. November 17, November 20, and March 25 all had backers as well. A Latin treatise written around 243 pegged March 21, because that was believed to be the date on which God created the sun. Polycarp (c.69-c.155) had followed the same line of reasoning to conclude that Christ’s birth and baptism most likely occurred on Wednesday, because the sun was created on the fourth day.

The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a convergence of Origen’s concern about pagan gods and the church’s identification of God’s son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman “birth of the unconquered sun”), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian “Sun of Righteousness” whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.

Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire’s favored religion. Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ’s birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25, celebrating Christ’s birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6. Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ’s baptism.

Another wrinkle was added in the sixteenth century when Pope Gregory devised a new calendar, which was unevenly adopted. The Eastern Orthodox and some Protestants retained the Julian calendar, which meant they celebrated Christmas 13 days later than their Gregorian counterparts. Most—but not all—of the Christian world now agrees on the Gregorian calendar and the December 25 date.

The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the holiday. “It’s just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow,” naysayers argue. But while kowtowing to worldliness must always be a concern for Christians, the church has generally viewed efforts to reshape culture—including holidays—positively. As a theologian asserted in 320, “We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it.”

 

[jcrichton]

Well I’m pretty sure my interlocutor (and others like him) accepts the premise that shepherds guarded their flocks outside at night during most of the year. What he does not accept though, and in fact flatly rejects, even with a mountain evidence in front of him, is that shepherds would guard their flocks outside at night in the “bitter December cold.”

…but is that not personal perception? …as I child, in the Dominican Republic, I witnessed much of that bitter Dec cold when temperature hit the 62 or 59 f… brrrr… I’m getting a chill just thinking about it!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It only gets “bitterly cold” in the far North and in the Antarctic. Israel is, from what I understand, a temperate climate. They don’t really get very cold over there. Let’s put it this way - if you’d be fine going outside in a wool sweater, then so would the sheep from whose wool you got the sweater.

…but do the sheep know that?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

But the Church isn’t wrong about December 25th. Explore the website I put in my earlier post. There’s a reason why the star was real and why it really did appear when Jesus was born, and that was December 25th. I believe it.

…no, what I mean is that their mind set is on debunking the Authority of the Church–anything goes, including fables and ignorance of all facts!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I have never read or heard anywhere from church authority that Christ’s birthday was absolutely on December 25th historically. I believe this day was settled on because of the
liturgy and that the universal church be in sync. Anybody here know anything definitively more?

…yeah catch the Star of Bethehem!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Rence]

An old standby for fundamentalists and others who object to observing Christmas on December 25

So…when would they like to celebrate the birth of Christ? Because I don’t think anyone knows for sure when He was actually born. Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

is that shepherds would never have flocks out at night in Bethlehem in December.

Are these fundamentalists also farmers? Because here in Tennessee sheep and goats can stay outside year round. Some people have some small barns for them…personally, my goat house is open all year round, no matter what the weather, and it’s gotten down to almost zero degrees. All the sheep farmers I know have open shelters. Surely Bethlahem doesn’t get quite that cold in their winters.

So Christ was certainly not born in December, they say, because it contradicts scripture. And then they talk about paganism blah, blah, blah.

Again, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone knows Christ’s birthdate. I do know that there were pagan rituals celebrated on December 25th before the time of Christ. However, one of the reasons why it was decided to celebrate it on Dec 25th was to make people forget about such pagan holidays and divert them to a Christian holiday. It was one of the ways they eradicated old pagan worship.

However, even if they did this, what does it matter today? December 25th is Christmas and Christians celebrate the memory of Christ’s birth on that day. Tell your fundamentalist non-farmer friends to celebrate the memory of Christ’s birthday on whatever day they want. The rest of the world will do it on Dec 25th.

Am I correct about this? Its certainly false to say shepherds would **never **have been outside at night keeping watch…right? I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

You’re correct.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

…is that not the program that ran on EWTN, narrated by the lawyer? …it it is, I loved it! …just think, Mathematics and Astronomy has the Incarnation embeded in it! …just leave it to Yahweh God to Prove His Word: Romans 1:20!

Maran atha!

Angel

Yes, that’s the one. God’s promises are REAL and written in the stars. I’m glad that it’s been shown on EWTN. I learned about it from a dear friend who is not Catholic, but who is certainly not anti-Catholic.

(He’s actually not the best speaker, but the material he has found is life-changing. People really have come to believe in God and Jesus from just his presentations.)

 

[patrick457]

Again, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone knows Christ’s birthdate. I do know that there were pagan rituals celebrated on December 25th before the time of Christ. However, one of the reasons why it was decided to celebrate it on Dec 25th was to make people forget about such pagan holidays and divert them to a Christian holiday. It was one of the ways they eradicated old pagan worship./]

The problem with the claim that commemorating the Nativity on December 25th had its roots on the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti is that it is attested in only a single source, the Chronography of 354, where the day is marked as N・INVICTI・CM・XXX (“Birthday of the Unconquered - games ordered: thirty [chariot-races]”). This has led modern Sol scholar Steven Hijmans to argue that there is no evidence that the celebration precedes that of Christmas: “[W]hile the winter solstice on or around December 25 was well established in the Roman imperial calendar, there is no evidence that a religious celebration of Sol on that day antedated the celebration of Christmas, and none that indicates that Aurelian had a hand in its institution.”

However, even if they did this, what does it matter today? December 25th is Christmas and Christians celebrate the memory of Christ’s birth on that day. Tell your fundamentalist non-farmer friends to celebrate the memory of Christ’s birthday on whatever day they want. The rest of the world will do it on Dec 25th.

 

[patrick457]

Something I wrote about a year ago:

Winter, which occurs between December and February in Israel, is the cold, rainy season, in contrast to the dry and hot Judean summer. The heaviest rainfall occurs between December and January (more than 70% of the average rainfall in Israel actually falls between November and March), sometimes with hail, thunder and lightning; there are at times snowfall up in the north and central parts of Israel. The climate is as such due to Israel’s location between the subtropical aridity of the Sahara and the Arabian deserts, and the subtropical humidity of the Levant and Eastern Mediterranean.

December was still warmer than January (the coldest month with average temperatures ranging from 6 to 15 °C, that is 42.8 to 59 °F), but the rains can make things unpleasant. I quote from The Victor Journey Through the Bible by V. Gilbert Beers:

The coldest temperature recorded in Palestine is 19°F (-7°C), much colder than a normal winter night, which on the Bethlehem hills was probably not down to freezing temperatures. However, a 40° night on a lonely hillside in a rainy season can be quite cold. The rain was almost more unpleasant than the cold. Rainfall in Palestine averages from less than an inch in the south at Eilat to about 40 inches per year in the north at Metulla.
Jerusalem averages about 25 inches per year with only slightly less in Bethlehem.

Because of the quite unpleasant weather conditions that happened, it is sometimes suggested that sheep would not have been out in the hillsides in midwinter (flocks were usually kept outside from April to November). Which is true in most cases, but the enormous Temple flocks kept in the greater Jerusalem area were apparently grazing out in the open all year.

Cattle (i.e. livestock) found all the way from Jerusalem to Migdal Eder, and in the same vicinity in all directions, are considered, if male, as whole-offerings, and if female as peace-offerings. Rabbi Yehudah says, “If they are fit for Passover-offerings they may be used for such purpose, providing Passover is not more than thirty days off.” (Shekalim 7.4)

This passage in the Mishnah suggests that any stray animals found between Jerusalem and a spot known as Migdal Eder (‘tower of Eder’ or ‘tower of the flock’; cf. Genesis 35:21?), were automatically destined to be sacrificed at the Temple. Some propose based on the passage in Genesis that this spot may be somewhere close to Bethlehem, where Rachel was buried (35:19-20). And because Rabbi Yehudah speaks of these being in the open fields thirty days before Passover (which would be in around February, when conditions are still not so good), they infer that these livestock were kept all year round.

 

[patrick457]

But the Church isn’t wrong about December 25th. Explore the website I put in my earlier post. There’s a reason why the star was real and why it really did appear when Jesus was born, and that was December 25th. I believe it.

I did notice that the star is supposed to have been seen around 2 BC. In general reckoning, Herod the Great is supposed to have died two years earlier (4 BC), though admittedly there has been some different proposals for his actual death date, ranging from 10 BC up to 1 BC.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Rence;8657921:

Again, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone knows Christ’s birthdate. I do know that there were pagan rituals celebrated on December 25th before the time of Christ. However, one of the reasons why it was decided to celebrate it on Dec 25th was to make people forget about such pagan holidays and divert them to a Christian holiday. It was one of the ways they eradicated old pagan worship./]

The problem with the claim that commemorating the Nativity on December 25th had its roots on the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti

is that it is attested in only a single source, the Chronography of 354, where the day is marked as N・INVICTI・CM・XXX (“Birthday of the Unconquered - games ordered: thirty [chariot-races]”). This has led modern Sol scholar Steven Hijmans to argue that there is no evidence that the celebration precedes that of Christmas: “[W]hile the winter solstice on or around December 25 was well established in the Roman imperial calendar, there is no evidence that a religious celebration of Sol on that day antedated the celebration of Christmas, and none that indicates that Aurelian had a hand in its institution.”

Good info, Patrick457, I didn’t know that. St. Augustine, in his Sermon #190, said the date of Christmas was chosen by Jesus as his date to be born for its symbolic importance and to supplant pagan celebrations, which is an interesting idea and one which was apparently held by early Christians. I’ve read that scholars date this sermon to as early as 395 A.D.

*1. Our Lord Jesus Christ, who was with the Father before he was born of his mother, chose not only the mother of whom he would be born, but also the day on which he would be born. Fallible human beings often choose days, one for planting, another for building, another for setting out, and sometimes even for marrying a wife. When people do this, the reason they do it is in order that something already born, so to say, may grow up or turn out well. Nobody, however, can choose the day on which actually to be born. But he was able to choose both, because he was able to create both. Nor did he choose the day in the same way that people do, who vainly hang the fates of individuals on the dispositions of the stars. I mean, in this case the one who was born was not made lucky by the day, but he gave good luck to the day on which he was graciously pleased to be born.

Because even the day of his birth contains the mystery of his light. That, you see, is what the apostle says: The night is far advanced, while the day has drawn near; let us throw off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light; let us walk decently as in the day (Rom 13:12-13). Let us recognize the day, and let us be the day. We were night, you see, when we were living as unbelievers. And this unbelief, which had covered the whole world as a kind of night, was to be diminished by the growth of faith; that’s why, on the day we celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, the night begins to be encroached upon, and the day to grow longer.

So, brothers and sisters, let us keep this day as a festival; not, like the unbelievers, because of that sun up there in the sky, but because of the one who made that sun. That which was the Word, you see, became flesh, in order to be able for our sakes to be under the sun. Under the sun, indeed, in the flesh; but in divine greatness over the entire universe, in which he placed the sun. Now, though, he is also over that sun even in the flesh, the sun which people worship instead of God, because in their mental blindness they cannot see the true sun of justice.*

Here’s the sermon in its entirety: psalm46-11.blogspot.com/2008/12/christmas-sermon-from-saint-augustine.html

Here’s another interesting Christmas sermon by St. Augustine: randomhouse.ca/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780385503112&view=printexcerpt

 

[patrick457]

Just to recap a little bit: we do know that the Church in Rome, and later, the West in general, started to commemorate the birth of Jesus in December 25 somewhere before around the mid-4th century, when our first extant explicit testimony appears in the Chronography of 354, where the Nativity is placed in “the kalends of January”. In the East meanwhile - even in Palestine, as the pilgrim Egeria records - the original date of choice is January 6 (Epiphany/Theophany), when the Nativity is commemorated with other events in the life of Jesus when He was ‘manifested’ to mankind. It was in the late 4th century (around the 380s-400s) that the December 25 date began to be promoted in the East, when orthodoxy increasingly began to gain the upper hand against Arianism. The feast was introduced to Constantinople around 379, and to Antioch in the 380s. The feast seems to have temporarily disappeared after St. Gregory of Nazianzus resigned as bishop in 381, although it was soon reintroduced by St. John Chrysostom in about 400, whereby it became increasingly fixed in the East thanks to Constantinople’s influence (though the date seems to have become fixed in Alexandria only a century later). Soon most of Christendom were celebrating the Nativity on December, leaving only the Church in Armenia to continue celebrating it on its ‘original’ Eastern date of January 6.

 

[Brian_Crane]

Here’s an excerpt from a site posted by a veterinary?:

littlehats.net/gessert01.html

Thanks, but that is the exact link I shared with the guy, which he blithely ignored.

 

[Brian_Crane]

So…when would they like to celebrate the birth of Christ?

I think the answer, unfortunately, is that most of them would not like to celebrate it.

Are these fundamentalists also farmers? Because here in Tennessee sheep and goats can stay outside year round. Some people have some small barns for them…personally, my goat house is open all year round, no matter what the weather, and it’s gotten down to almost zero degrees. All the sheep farmers I know have open shelters. Surely Bethlahem doesn’t get quite that cold in their winters.

Agreed.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, that’s the one. God’s promises are REAL and written in the stars. I’m glad that it’s been shown on EWTN. I learned about it from a dear friend who is not Catholic, but who is certainly not anti-Catholic.

(He’s actually not the best speaker, but the material he has found is life-changing. People really have come to believe in God and Jesus from just his presentations.)

…other than the whole revelation (liked the guy since he was very low key!) the other thing that impressed me was the fact that this is a lawyer who has no scientific background and he was able to put together such revealing facts… where are all the scientists that claim that they are not against the Truth (Creation) but are simply fact seekers?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Rence;8657921:

Again, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think anyone knows Christ’s birthdate. I do know that there were pagan rituals celebrated on December 25th before the time of Christ. However, one of the reasons why it was decided to celebrate it on Dec 25th was to make people forget about such pagan holidays and divert them to a Christian holiday. It was one of the ways they eradicated old pagan worship./]

The problem with the claim that commemorating the Nativity on December 25th had its roots on the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti

is that it is attested in only a single source, the Chronography of 354, where the day is marked as N・INVICTI・CM・XXX (“Birthday of the Unconquered - games ordered: thirty [chariot-races]”). This has led modern Sol scholar Steven Hijmans to argue that there is no evidence that the celebration precedes that of Christmas: “[W]hile the winter solstice on or around December 25 was well established in the Roman imperial calendar, there is no evidence that a religious celebration of Sol on that day antedated the celebration of Christmas, and none that indicates that Aurelian had a hand in its institution.”

Or January 6th if you are an Armenian. …also, as I understand it, the pagan celebration is not of Dec 25th per say but of a whole period which includes that very specific day–I could be wrong since I did not due an actual fact-search and I’m going on the impression I have on other people’s statements…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I did notice that the star is supposed to have been seen around 2 BC. In general reckoning, Herod the Great is supposed to have died two years earlier (4 BC), though admittedly there has been some different proposals for his actual death date, ranging from 10 BC up to 1 BC.

…some years back I heard that Christ’s Birth was estimated between 6 BC and 6 AD… considering that most dates were kept by referencing monarchs, priests, and power/political struggles…it’s surprising that they (the proposed dates) are less ambiguous than a decade or so of inconsistency…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Thanks, but that is the exact link I shared with the guy, which he blithely ignored.

…sorry… didn’t know!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think the answer, unfortunately, is that most of them would not like to celebrate it.

…this proved to be the case when it was brought up on a non-Catholic site that I used to visit… when I offered the opportunity to present a different date for the Celebration of Christ’s Birth (the Incarnation of God)… the thread became completely silent… not even the most zealous non-Catholic Christian thought that it was important to Celebrate the Incarnation of Christ or at least to fight to retain Dec. 25th as a Christian celebration… soon after I left the site… not too long after that the onslaught on Christmas began!
…again Christ’s Words ringing so very True: the children of the world are wiser than the children of God! :doh2:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[patrick457]

…some years back I heard that Christ’s Birth was estimated between 6 BC and 6 AD… considering that most dates were kept by referencing monarchs, priests, and power/political struggles…it’s surprising that they (the proposed dates) are less ambiguous than a decade or so of inconsistency…

Maran atha!

Angel

You arrive at the AD 6 date if you consider the census that Luke mentions to be the one which has held then (but see here). Again, problem with this is, Herod’s supposed to be already dead.