Sheep Outside in December

[jcrichton]

You arrive at the AD 6 date if you consider the census that Luke mentions to be the one which has held then (but see here). Again, problem with this is, Herod’s supposed to be already dead.

…wow… and I thought that only Scriptural exegesis was full of bends and contortions!

…from what I understand many power-heads were placed as shields between the actual rulers and the people… so when things went wrong the figure-heads would take the blame… could historians and others not be missing something to which first-hand biographers/scribes might have had access?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ChrisB103]

An old standby for fundamentalists and others who object to observing Christmas on December 25 is that shepherds would never have flocks out at night in Bethlehem in December. So Christ was certainly not born in December, they say, because it contradicts scripture. And then they talk about paganism blah, blah, blah. “Never” is the word usually used in order to just shut down any debate whatsoever…basically implying you’re stupid to suggest otherwise.

However, I’ve read quite a bit online about keeping sheep outside year round, and it appears to me that it can be done, and that it is occasionally (or perhaps often) done, especially in moderate climates. Sheep are pretty insulated, it seems, and can withstand cold temperatures pretty well. I don’t think Bethlehem is exceedingly cold in late December (it may be slightly colder than the Sacramento Valley, where I live, which is mild) and even if you had a little lean-to or three sided shelter for storms, that’s still outside where shepherds, back in the day, would have to keep watch.

Am I correct about this? Its certainly false to say shepherds would **never **have been outside at night keeping watch…right? I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

I haven’t read through all of this thread, but Jimmy Akin answered this charge recently on Catholic Answers Live. You might enjoy the answer. You can find it by following this link, clicking on the yellow “Listen” button, and jumping ahead to 24:00.

 

[John21652]

An old standby for fundamentalists and others who object to observing Christmas on December 25 is that shepherds would never have flocks out at night in Bethlehem in December. So Christ was certainly not born in December, they say, because it contradicts scripture. And then they talk about paganism blah, blah, blah. “Never” is the word usually used in order to just shut down any debate whatsoever…basically implying you’re stupid to suggest otherwise.

However, I’ve read quite a bit online about keeping sheep outside year round, and it appears to me that it can be done, and that it is occasionally (or perhaps often) done, especially in moderate climates. Sheep are pretty insulated, it seems, and can withstand cold temperatures pretty well. I don’t think Bethlehem is exceedingly cold in late December (it may be slightly colder than the Sacramento Valley, where I live, which is mild) and even if you had a little lean-to or three sided shelter for storms, that’s still outside where shepherds, back in the day, would have to keep watch.

Am I correct about this? Its certainly false to say shepherds would **never **have been outside at night keeping watch…right? I would appreciate any (name removed by moderator)ut.

Israel has a meditteranean climate. Hot summers and mild to cold winters. Bethlehem is on the west bank of the Jordon and a hop, skip and a jump from the sea, so the climate is modified. As for keeping sheep outdoors, of course they did. All year round. My country, Australia, has a climate very similar to Israel and sheep and cattle are never housed. Strange thing about sheep - they grow wool to keep warm!

The argument that shepherds would never keep sheep outside in December is pure nonsense. Except in really, really, unnaturally cold, freezing places like North America and Europe.

Brrrrr. I dunno how you stand it.

 

[Whadyamean]

Israel has a meditteranean climate. Hot summers and mild to cold winters. Bethlehem is on the west bank of the Jordon and a hop, skip and a jump from the sea, so the climate is modified. As for keeping sheep outdoors, of course they did. All year round. My country, Australia, has a climate very similar to Israel and sheep and cattle are never housed. Strange thing about sheep - they grow wool to keep warm!

The argument that shepherds would never keep sheep outside in December is pure nonsense. Except in really, really, unnaturally cold, freezing places like North America and Europe.

Brrrrr. I dunno how you stand it.

Yes, but really who cares? This is a made up argument about something no one knows for sure. We have our Holiday as dated for whatever reason that we know must be arbitrary and we celebrate it. Arguing with those who claim it is something else is their business, and we feed them by providing a reaction. If they weren’t argued with their interest might very well die of lack of attention and at worst be a one sided shouting exposition into the air.

 

[Brian_Crane]

I haven’t read through all of this thread, but Jimmy Akin answered this charge recently on Catholic Answers Live. You might enjoy the answer. You can find it by following this link, clicking on the yellow “Listen” button, and jumping ahead to 24:00.

Hey thanks for that.

 

[Whadyamean]

I haven’t read through all of this thread, but Jimmy Akin answered this charge recently on Catholic Answers Live. You might enjoy the answer. You can find it by following this link, clicking on the yellow “Listen” button, and jumping ahead to 24:00.

Yes, the idea that he was born then “because we believe so” is an excellent rebuttal to any other argument! Praise the Lord!

 

[ChrisB103]

Yes, the idea that he was born then “because we believe so” is an excellent rebuttal to any other argument! Praise the Lord!

There seems to be a heavy dose of sarcasm in your response, and I’m not sure why you think it’s warranted. Neither my response nor Mr. Akin’s response hinged on the “because we believe so” angle. Jimmy pointed out that it was a belief held by early Christians, who would be more likely to know than we would, *and *that it’s still common practice for shepherds in the Holy Land to be in the fields with sheep even today.

 

[Whadyamean]

There seems to be a heavy dose of sarcasm in your response, and I’m not sure why you think it’s warranted. Neither my response nor Mr. Akin’s response hinged on the “because we believe so” angle. Jimmy pointed out that it was a belief held by early Christians, who would be more likely to know than we would, *and *that it’s still common practice for shepherds in the Holy Land to be in the fields with sheep even today.

Nothing aimed at you in particular, but at the attitude that belief by itself, piously and uncritically accepted, is so frequently taken as unassailable FACT by so many in so many areas of life!

 

[ChrisB103]

Nothing aimed at you in particular, but at the attitude that belief by itself, piously and uncritically accepted, is so frequently taken as unassailable FACT by so many in so many areas of life!

I don’t think my initial post, Jimmy Akin’s radio segment, or my clarification post ever said that we should uncritically rely on belief by itself as unassailable fact. In fact, I’m pretty sure Jimmy Akin specifically called it a “tradition”, but not necessarily one that we have to believe to be true.

 

[Whadyamean]

I don’t think my initial post, Jimmy Akin’s radio segment, or my clarification post ever said that we should uncritically rely on belief by itself as unassailable fact. In fact, I’m pretty sure Jimmy Akin specifically called it a “tradition”, but not necessarily one that we have to believe to be true.

I’m glad you fee that way. The most dangerous thing is to* believe* you know.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, the idea that he was born then “because we believe so” is an excellent rebuttal to any other argument! Praise the Lord!

The people who knew what they were talking about believed so. There’s a difference.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Israel has a meditteranean climate. Hot summers and mild to cold winters. Bethlehem is on the west bank of the Jordon and a hop, skip and a jump from the sea, so the climate is modified. As for keeping sheep outdoors, of course they did. All year round. My country, Australia, has a climate very similar to Israel and sheep and cattle are never housed. Strange thing about sheep - they grow wool to keep warm!

The argument that shepherds would never keep sheep outside in December is pure nonsense. Except in really, really, unnaturally cold, freezing places like North America and Europe.

Brrrrr. I dunno how you stand it.

Oh, we manage to live with it. I live in North America; southern Missouri to be exact. This area is on approximately the same latitude as the southern part of Spain, the northern parts of North Africa and the Levant. True, we have a continental climate rather than a Mediterranean one, meaning, undoubtedly, that it gets colder here for short periods in the winter when big air masses dive out of Canada, than it does in Israel.

Regardless, nobody around here keeps livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) indoors at any time in the winter. They can take it with no problem, and it’s not healthy for them to be indoors for any significant period of time, at any time of year. It’s bad for their feet, for their metabolic adjustment and it aids in the spread of disease.

I have read that sometimes people far, far north of here (the Dakotas, Montana, places like that) sometimes keep their livestock indoors during severe blizzards and that sort of thing. But even in those places I don’t think it’s very common.

 

[jilly4ski]

Oh, we manage to live with it. I live in North America; southern Missouri to be exact. This area is on approximately the same latitude as the southern part of Spain, the northern parts of North Africa and the Levant. True, we have a continental climate rather than a Mediterranean one, meaning, undoubtedly, that it gets colder here for short periods in the winter when big air masses dive out of Canada, than it does in Israel.

Regardless, nobody around here keeps livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) indoors at any time in the winter. They can take it with no problem, and it’s not healthy for them to be indoors for any significant period of time, at any time of year. It’s bad for their feet, for their metabolic adjustment and it aids in the spread of disease.

I have read that sometimes people far, far north of here (the Dakotas, Montana, places like that) sometimes keep their livestock indoors during severe blizzards and that sort of thing. But even in those places I don’t think it’s very common.

I do believe, the dairy cows get housed indoors, as well as the other live stock when the temp gets close to -20F or if there is going to be a bad blizzard. It doesn’t help ones bottom line, to have the cattle freeze to the ground or to lose them under 6 foot drifts, especially with the wind blowing over the plains.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I checked the weather forecast for Jerusalem in the next week and their lows are 8-degrees Celsius. Its far from below freezing so I suppose sheep can sleep outside at night at this temperature, they do have wool to keep them warm. I heard this was common to get the sheep ready for Temple sacrifice the next day.

 

[jmcrae]

I checked the weather forecast for Jerusalem in the next week and their lows are 8-degrees Celsius. Its far from below freezing so I suppose sheep can sleep outside at night at this temperature, they do have wool to keep them warm. I heard this was common to get the sheep ready for Temple sacrifice the next day.

8 degrees is not very cold at all - it’s not swim-suit weather, but you could certainly go outside in your indoor clothes without too much discomfort - even a child wouldn’t need more than a warm wool sweater.

 

[John21652]

Oh, we manage to live with it. I live in North America; southern Missouri to be exact. This area is on approximately the same latitude as the southern part of Spain, the northern parts of North Africa and the Levant. True, we have a continental climate rather than a Mediterranean one, meaning, undoubtedly, that it gets colder here for short periods in the winter when big air masses dive out of Canada, than it does in Israel.

Regardless, nobody around here keeps livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) indoors at any time in the winter. They can take it with no problem, and it’s not healthy for them to be indoors for any significant period of time, at any time of year. It’s bad for their feet, for their metabolic adjustment and it aids in the spread of disease.

I have read that sometimes people far, far north of here (the Dakotas, Montana, places like that) sometimes keep their livestock indoors during severe blizzards and that sort of thing. But even in those places I don’t think it’s very common.

This look familiar?

 

[Ridgerunner]

This look familiar?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kybp15pKbk1qzou5ko1_500.jpg

Yup, except the guy is wasting hay. I’m guessing he’s losing 45% of it. You shouldn’t just put big bales out on the ground if you have any sense. Livestock will pull it apart, nest in it, void all over it, trample it. Just look at the photo.

What you need to do is either unroll it so they eat it right away and all in a line, or use a feeding ring or wagon so they can’t get it all over the ground like that or get in or on it.

Just as an aside, there are a lot of Kiwis and Aussies who have come to my part of the world to raise cattle. There are several reasons for that, they have told me. First, land is cheaper here. Second, we’re in the “green fescue” belt, where the grass stays green all year. Third, we’re also in the “Bermuda belt” where you can also grow warm-season grasses successfuly. Some people here don’t feed hay at all except on the rare days when there is ice or more than one foot of snow on the ground. Fourth, we’re mighty close to where the grain is, where the processing plants are and where the consuming population is.

 

[John21652]

Yup, except the guy is wasting hay. I’m guessing he’s losing 45% of it. You shouldn’t just put big bales out on the ground if you have any sense. Livestock will pull it apart, nest in it, void all over it, trample it. Just look at the photo.

The “guy” might be wasting hay, but the sheep aren’t. They’re trying to keep their feet warm!

What you need to do is either unroll it so they eat it right away and all in a line, or use a feeding ring or wagon so they can’t get it all over the ground like that or get in or on it.

Typical human thinking. If I was a sheep in that scene, I’d be standing on it!

Just as an aside, there are a lot of Kiwis and Aussies who have come to my part of the world to raise cattle. There are several reasons for that, they have told me. First, land is cheaper here.

That’s interesting. We get a lot of Kiwis here, particularly in dairying, because land is cheaper. I didn’t know people were heading over your way.

Second, we’re in the “green fescue” belt, where the grass stays green all year. Third, we’re also in the “Bermuda belt” where you can also grow warm-season grasses successfuly.

“Bermuda belt”, with all that white stuff on the ground!!?

Some people here don’t feed hay at all except on the rare days when there is ice or more than one foot of snow on the ground. Fourth, we’re mighty close to where the grain is, where the processing plants are and where the consuming population is.

IIce? Snow more than one foot deep? Yikes. Sounds like Siberia!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Typical human thinking. If I was a sheep in that scene, I’d be standing on it!
Sure. That’s why you don’t allow them to do it.
That’s interesting. We get a lot of Kiwis here, particularly in dairying, because land is cheaper. I didn’t know people were heading over your way. “Bermuda belt”, with all that white stuff on the ground!!? IIce? Snow more than one foot deep? Yikes. Sounds like Siberia!!

Lots of Kiwis around here. Some Aussies. Lots of Bermuda as well. Not Siberia. It will snow a foot every few years, and is mostly gone the next day, though sometimes it will last in patches for a few days. Once in a great while it will last three or four days, but it will be deteriorating the whole time. Actually, the ground is warmer under snow than it is when exposed to the air. Our year-round below-surface ground temperature is about 60 degrees, so anything that insulates the soil surface allows the warmth to radiate up, and the snow melts from underneath as much or more than it does on the surface.

The Kiwis raise beef cattle but, interestingly, they also milk them. Milk from beef cattle is very high in butterfat, and they sell it to the “specialty” manufacturers who make things like very rich ice cream.

Oddly, ice storms are far more common here than they are farther north. Ice storms require cold lower air under moist warmer air, which doesn’t happen a whole lot. They’re beautiful, actually. It falls as rain, but it turns to ice on exposed surfaces like trees and grass. Sometimes it will cover the ground, but the ice on the ground won’t last out a day, though, and not much longer on trees, brush, etc.

Bermuda can certainly tolerate winter temperatures here (not much farther north, though). What affects it the most is length of growing season and very warm summer temperatures, all other things being equal. In Oklahoma, which is nearby, outside what they call the “Green Country” (Easternmost Ok) Bermuda is about all people can grow with any degree of success.

And yes, we did get fescue from Australia. Thanks for that.

I am mildly resentful of Australia for the moment, though. La Nina conditions favor you and disfavor us. We are currently under La Nina conditions. Viva El Nino, which has the exact opposite effect!

 

[John21652]

Bermuda is about all people can grow with any degree of success.

And yes, we did get fescue from Australia. Thanks for that.

I am mildly resentful of Australia for the moment, though. La Nina conditions favor you and disfavor us. We are currently under La Nina conditions. Viva El Nino, which has the exact opposite effect!

Well, we are under La NIna as well and just loving it.

If you click here - Australian Bureau of Meterology, you can read all about it. On the left of that page, you will see a link called ‘Rainfall Outlook’. Take a peek there and you’ll see why we are just loving El Nina!

El Nino just about devastated this country only a few years back. The last few years of the '90s and up to 2007 it was a declared National Drought. Since 2007 the seasons have been gradually improving and returning to normal again. This past winter/spring has been one of the wettest ever and the spring growth has been incredibly prolific.

Of course we don’t get snow. The mountains get their fair share, bu all the lower down farming lands virtually never see it. It just gets wet! Where I am, in south eastern Victoria, we have an average rainfall of around 40".

What Fescues do you use? Demeter, or Tall? Many have swung back to the Cocksfoots, because of better persistence.

Do you think anyone else is following this conversation?

Now, what was the species of straw/grass in Jesus’ crib?