Sheep Outside in December

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Mary of Agreda was promoted by the Spanish bishops and other eminent men of the Churdh soon after her death in 1666. It has resulted so far in securing her the title of Venerabilis, thus clearing the way to her beatification.

The following all gave their blessings for the reading of this book by all, Popes Innocent XI, Alexander VIII, Clement IX, Benedict XIII, Benedict XIV, and Clement XIV. Along with the Augustinians, Benedictines, Carmelites, Dominicans, Jesuits, Cistercians, Basilians, Trinitarians, Mercedarians, Minims, Hieronymites, Premonstratensians, Reformed Augustinians, Theatines, Minors of the Reguar Clergy.
 
never heard of Mary of Agreda, but I have Anne Catherine Emmerich’s book that was written based on visions she had.

According to catherine emmerich’s book, it was actually around November that Jesus was born…
 
rolazaraberin said:
I’ve never heard of Venerable Mary of Agreda. She seems like a seer.
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Here’s the Catholic Encyclopedia article about her.
I know that Canonized Saints go from Servant Of God, to Blessed, to finally Saint. How did Mary of Agreda get the “Venerable” title?
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Does the Roman Catholic Church endorse her in any way?
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According to Wikipedia:

In the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, a deceased Catholic may be declared a Servant of God by a bishop and proposed for beatification by the Pope through the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. The Venerable, is the style used for such a servant of God declared to be “heroic in virtue” during the investigation and process leading to possible canonization as a saint. Before a person is considered to be venerable, he or she must be declared as such by a proclamation, approved by the Pope, of having lived a life that was “heroic in virtue” – the virtues being the Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and charity and the Cardinal Virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. The next step is beatification, at which point the person is referred to as The Blessed, and finally canonization, at which point the person is referred to as Saint. Two modern and well-known examples of those who have been declared venerable are Popes Pius XII and John Paul II, who were both declared venerable by Pope Benedict XVI in December 2009.

The 7–8th-century English monk St. Bede was referred to as being venerable soon after his death and, by tradition, is therefore often referred to as “the Venerable Bede” despite his also having been canonized. St Bede was the first person to be recorded as The Venerable.
 
DavidWJackson said:
Mary of Agreda was promoted by the Spanish bishops and other eminent men of the Churdh soon after her death in 1666…
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Mary of Agreda sounds like the real thing, a true seer. I can’t quite explain it, but I believe her when she describes Jesus’ conception and the day of His birth.
DavidWJackson said:
…and thus was formed Christ true God and Man, our Lord and Redeemer. This happened in springtime on the twenty-fifth of March…
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It seems fitting for God, Jesus, the 2nd Adam, to choose to be conceived on the same day that the 1st Adam was created, March 25. The same God who chose His conception, could also choose his birth, which quite fittingly enough, is exactly 9 months at December 25. Throughout scripture, God has shown to be good with numbers, revealing timeless patterns with them.

I wonder if Mary of Agreda has something to say about Jesus dying on March 25???
DavidWJackson said:
…This movement not only did not cause any pain or hardship, as happens with the other daughters of Adam and Eve in their childbirths; but filled her with incomparable joy and delight…
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It is also fitting for Mary the Mother of God to not suffer pain while giving birth. We know from scripture that sin is a reason why women experience birthing pain [Genesis 3:16]. Mary the Mother of God, Immaculately conceived and being without sin, was exempt from that pain.
DavidWJackson said:
…the most exalted Lady gave to the world the Only-begotten of the father and her own, our Saviour Jesus, true God and man, at the hour of midnight, on a Sunday, in the year of the creation of the world five thousand one hundred and ninety-nine (5199), which is the date given in the Roman Church, and which date has been manifested to me as the true and certain one.
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It just goes to show, whether sheep were outside or not during December, it indeed was the month when Jesus was born.
 
jediliz said:
…Anne Catherine Emmerich’s book that was written based on visions she had… it was actually around November that Jesus was born…
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I’ve never heard of Anne Catherine Emmerich.

How notable is she?
Does the Roman Catholic Church endorse her in any way?
 
patrick457 said:
Here’s the [Mary of Agread].
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There seems to be some positive and negative aspects about her story. That’s expected. Hardly ever has the truth emerged without meeting opposition. The Lady Of Fatima is an example. Before this apparition was approved by the Church, it overcame a lot of skepticism. Likewise, time will tell the truth (or falsehood) of Mary of Agreda’s story (although it’s already been about 400 years since it was first told).
patrick457 said:
The Venerable, is the style used for such a servant of God declared to be “heroic in virtue” during the investigation and process leading to possible canonization as a saint. Before a person is considered to be venerable, he or she must be declared as such by a proclamation, approved by the Pope, of having lived a life that was “heroic in virtue” – the virtues being the Theological Virtues of faith, hope, and charity and the Cardinal Virtues of prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance.
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Thanks. I must’ve missed that. So the succession goes:
Servant Of God → Venerable → Blessed → Saint
 
rolazaraberin said:
Mary of Agreda sounds like the real thing, a true seer. I can’t quite explain it, but I believe her when she describes Jesus’ conception and the day of His birth.

It seems fitting for God, Jesus, the 2nd Adam, to choose to be conceived on the same day that the 1st Adam was created, March 25. The same God who chose His conception, could also choose his birth, which quite fittingly enough, is exactly 9 months at December 25. Throughout scripture, God has shown to be good with numbers, revealing timeless patterns with them.

I wonder if Mary of Agreda has something to say about Jesus dying on March 25???

It is also fitting for Mary the Mother of God to not suffer pain while giving birth. We know from scripture that sin is a reason why women experience birthing pain [Genesis 3:16]. Mary the Mother of God, Immaculately conceived and being without sin, was exempt from that pain.

It just goes to show, whether sheep were outside or not during December, it indeed was the month when Jesus was born.
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I can’t find a date for the death of Christ skimming the book. I did find the ages of Mary at His birth “15 years, 3 months, 17 days. Mary’s age at Christ’s death 48 years, 6 months, 17 days. Mary’s age at Her death 69 years, 11 months, 5 or 6 days.” However, none of this may be true. But than most everything we believe is through faith and hope. I aquired this book from a “Fullness of Truth” conference book sale.
 
I put my faith in the Church. I find it hard to believe, that the day our Lord God was born incarnate would be lost in history. I can hardly imagine St. Peter not handing this information down along with all the Bishops of the Church. Can we find a point in time when birthdays were not celebrated or recognized by family and close friends? And, wouldn’t the birthday of the Christ be the most precious of all birthdays to remember and celebrate? Common sense, common sense. How could we have lost this birth date to time?
 
DavidWJackson said:
I put my faith in the Church. I find it hard to believe, that the day our Lord God was born incarnate would be lost in history. I can hardly imagine St. Peter not handing this information down along with all the Bishops of the Church. Can we find a point in time when birthdays were not celebrated or recognized by family and close friends? And, wouldn’t the birthday of the Christ be the most precious of all birthdays to remember and celebrate? Common sense, common sense. How could we have lost this birth date to time?
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My common sense tells me that, in an agrarian society, dates are vary unimportant. The month, the season, yes. The date. I would not care.

In a nomadic society, birthday would be a day in the month, but the month moved every year (Passover is based on the phase of the moon, not the day of the year).

We don’t know the date my grandfather was born. When he entered the navy he said he lied in order to get in. So they have one day and we KNOW that onw is wrong. He had another day, his daughter had another and his wife another. It’s was not that important, and this was only 2 generations ago.

The first century Jewish historian Josephus noted that Jewish families did not celebrate birthdays:
Nay, indeed, the law does not permit us to make festivals at the birth of our children, and thereby afford occasion of drinking to excess (Josephus. Translated by W. Whiston. Against Apion, Book II, Chapter 26. Extracted from Josephus Complete Works, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids (MI), 14th printing, 1977, p. 632).
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Now although there is no specific command against the celebration of birthdays in the Bible, the Jewish custom in those days was apparently based on the negative occurrences in the Bible surrounding birthdays, as well as the astrological implications of the celebration of birthdays (pagan practices, like astrology, were specifically prohibited in the law).

Since nearly all of the first Christians were Jewish, this may partially explain why the celebration of Jesus’ birth would not be consistent with that early custom.
"There is no tradition in Judaism of celebrating birthdays as holidays, otherwise we would expect holidays for the birthdays of Moses and Abraham, among others, but there is no such thing. The Bible does not even record their birthdays, just as the New Testament does not record the date of Jesus' birth." [amfi.org/mailbag/messiahmas.htm](http://www.amfi.org/mailbag/messiahmas.htm)
 
DavidWJackson said:
…And, wouldn’t the birthday of the Christ be the most precious of all birthdays to remember and celebrate? Common sense, common sense.
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Common sense is relative and may not be so common at all.
What is common sense to one culture may not be common sense to another.
What is common sense now may not have been common sense in the past.

I agree that birthdays are very important in our time and our culture, but as Evan said in his previous post:
Evan said:
The first century Jewish historian Josephus noted that Jewish families did not celebrate birthdays…
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Jesus was in a different time and different culture than ours.
To get a better understanding of Jesus’ birthday, we must frame our thoughts within His time, His culture.

Going back to the original post, common sense tells us that sheep and shepherds shouldn’t be outside in December because it’s too cold.
It appears common sense is wrong based on the replies in this thread.
 
jediliz said:
According to catherine emmerich’s book, it was actually around November that Jesus was born…
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I just read up a little bit on Anne Catherine Emmerich. Turns out she’s a Venerable.

Visions can be a peculiar thing. What exactly did Venerable Anne Catherine Emmerich see that caused her to say that Jesus was born in November? How was it worded in her book?
 
I just heard from my daughter-in-law. Her father raised sheep all his life for shearing in northern Missouri. She told me her father let the sheep out in the fields during the day and kept them in the barn at night during the winter.
I’m very glad, there are scholars on this sight that know a great deal about biblical and cultural histories to keep us on the right path towards the truth. I just came into a self understanding that the birth and death dates for very notable people were normally always kept in record.
However, I still believe December 25 is the correct date for the birth of Christ since the church is guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
God only knows the date when Jesus was born
December in and around Israel pretty warm
Some scholars believe that Jesus was born somewhere between
April-June plus calendar is two - eight years off
Because of some miscalculations by st. John the short
So we can never know until we get to heaven what the weather was like
: )
 
aragonjohn1 said:
God only knows the date when Jesus was born
December in and around Israel pretty warm
Some scholars believe that Jesus was born somewhere between
April-June plus calendar is two - eight years off
Because of some miscalculations by st. John the short
So we can never know until we get to heaven what the weather was like
: )
Plus the feast was used in the early church as a celebration
In place of the pagan feast of running of the bulls
To celebrate whenever He was born

GOD BLESS
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aragonjohn1 said:
Plus the feast was used in the early church as a celebration
In place of the pagan feast of running of the bulls
To celebrate whenever He was born

GOD BLESS
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:confused:

The Running of the Bulls doesn’t take place at Christmas time, and it is a much more recent development than Christmas. Christmas was proclaimed in 150 AD - the Running of the Bulls came about in the 1800s.
 
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