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Matthew_Holford
Guest
A question for our Muslim brethren: What is the difference between Shia and Sunni Islam? Why do the adherents of these two areas of Islam have such antagonism against each other?
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TheAtheist
Guest
If i understand my Muslims acquiantances - the whole matter centers on the succession.
Namely - who is Ali ibn Abī Ṭālib, son in law of the Prophet?
How you answer that question results in a variety of different outcomes…and people angry with those outcomes.
Namely - who is Ali ibn Abī Ṭālib, son in law of the Prophet?
How you answer that question results in a variety of different outcomes…and people angry with those outcomes.
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triumphguy
Guest
Shia have Imams (kinda like priests) and additional “scriptures”
The Sunni have no imams.
A bit like protestants and Catholics.
The Sunni have no imams.
A bit like protestants and Catholics.
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Mystophilus
Guest
There is a good introductory article on the difference here. As for the antagonism, it really is rather similar to the Catholic-Protestant one, including the unfortunate habit on both sides of wilfully misrepresenting the other.
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TheAtheist
Guest
If all the years i’ve spent poking around various religious groups forums have taught me - That’s probably the biggest Factor in negative inter-religious dialogue outcomes.
More often than not, average Joe _____ doesn’t really have much of a clue as to what Average Abdul _____ actually believes.
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Mystophilus
Guest
The Sunni have imams, but use the term much more freely: a Sunni imam is a leader or teacher, including the person who reads the Qu’ran in mosque. For Shi’ites, especially the Twelvers, “imam” is used in a sense much closer to the Catholic/Orthodox usage of “saint”.
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JakeG
Guest
It is not only Sunni versus Shia.
We also have Sufi and Ahmadiyya.
Probably the most persecuted Muslim sect is the Ahamdiyya.
See:
Persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan
Persecution of Ahmadiyya in Indonesia
The Pakistani physicist, Abdus Salaam, was the first Muslim to be awarded a Nobel Prize in the sciences. (He got it together with Steven Weinberg and Sheldon Glashow). He was an Ahamdi. Shortly thereafter the Pakistani government passed a law stating the Ahmadis were not Muslims. Abdus Salaam lived out his days in exile in Europe.
As for the Bahai - let’s not even go there!
We also have Sufi and Ahmadiyya.
Probably the most persecuted Muslim sect is the Ahamdiyya.
See:
Persecution of Ahmadiyya in Pakistan
Persecution of Ahmadiyya in Indonesia
The Pakistani physicist, Abdus Salaam, was the first Muslim to be awarded a Nobel Prize in the sciences. (He got it together with Steven Weinberg and Sheldon Glashow). He was an Ahamdi. Shortly thereafter the Pakistani government passed a law stating the Ahmadis were not Muslims. Abdus Salaam lived out his days in exile in Europe.
As for the Bahai - let’s not even go there!
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Mystophilus
Guest
One of the complications of Sufism is that it lies not outside of the Sunni and Shia, but across them, such that there are more-Sunni Sufis (e.g., Qadiriyyah) and more-Shi’ite Sufis (e.g., Bektashiyyah).
But yes, there are an awful lot of different smaller groups, and I have heard quite a few of them denounced as “not even Muslim” by more mainstream Sunnis and Shi’ites.
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Mystophilus
Guest
It is a feature of politics generally though, isn’t it? Clearly, my affiliation is the Right One, and anyone who disagrees is either ignorant or stupid.
Motivated Cognition is a bad, bad thing.
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Nine_Two
Guest
The Amadi’s are comparable to groups like the Mormons, I think. They are of distinct Shi’a lineage, but have moved away from that tradition to the point that many Muslims don’t see them as fellow Muslims.
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ltwin
Guest
I have heard many comparisons made between the Sunni-Shia and the Protestant-Catholic divides. Sunni Muslims supposedly reject beliefs in saints and objects in worship. Shias supposedly have a lot of saintly figures and they have their own version of Apostolic Succession in that they believe that their Imams are directly traceable to Ali.
There could also be an ethnic component to differences. The largest Shia nation is Iran, which is Persian. At the same time, most Arab nations are majority Sunni.
There could also be an ethnic component to differences. The largest Shia nation is Iran, which is Persian. At the same time, most Arab nations are majority Sunni.
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Sam_777
Guest
It’s all political issue, the whole issue started after Muhammed death and who would be the first Caliph.
Muhammed’s wife Aisha who was around 18 when Muhammed died thought she has the right to decide whom should inherit her husband political will, so the whole issue started and they assassin each others till we reached the status today…
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Thank you!
I know there are other groups within Islam. As far as I am aware Shia and Sunni account for the vast majority of Mulims. Perhaps, my OP could have been clearer. I wanted to know the difference between the two main groups. One has to start somewhere.
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Hypatia
Guest
Aisha comes into the story a little bit later than Sam suggests, but that is basically correct. Immediately after the death of the Prophet (pbuh), Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman are all recognized as caliphs by Sunnis before the conflict between Aisha and Ali happens. And even after Ali defeats Aisha, there are several more attempts to push Ali out, until finally he is defeated and the Umayyids are re-established (they are Uthman’s descendants). The religious differences between Sunnis and most Shi’a are relatively minor (e.g., in places like the US, Sunni and Shi’a will often go to mosque together and mix together in the Muslim Student Assocs in universities, etc.; so this isn’t on the level of a Protestant/Catholic split). And most of those differences stem from the issues of communal authority at stake between Ali and his opponents (reaching a bloody culmination in the martyrdom of Hussain at the battle of Karbala in 680 by one of the Umayyid kings). The Shia believe that the Prophet specially chose Ali from the very beginning to be his successor, but most Muslims at the time did not see it that way.Thank you!
In important ways the difference has even gotten smaller over time, at least in practice, since the Shi’a Imam has been “occulted” for over a millenia now and so the leaders of the shi’a are not direct continuations of the office of Ali any longer.
The Ismailis are also Shi’a but they make up a much smaller and very distinct branch of Islam. They used to be very politically important, but are largely confined to India, and Indian expats, now. You can Google the Ismailis for a decent description.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Hi Sam. That’s a pretty young age for a widow. It is very unfortunate that she should be a widow at that age. What I would like to know, well, just for knowledge, whether Aisha would ever remarried or take a lover in the course of her life? Was she a Queen, in the mode of a Dowager and the power ‘behind the throne’?
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Hypatia
Guest
She is defeated at the Battle of the Camel in 656 by Ali and sent back to Medinah where she was more or less confined (apart from making Hajj). She does not remarry, and is largely politically (though not religiously; she remained a very important model for Muslims during her life) irrelevant thereafter. The Ummayids were not exactly allies of Aisha (pbuh) after they defeat Ali and come to power (they had not exactly been the closed allies of the Prophet (pbuh) during his life either, though Uthman personally enjoyed an excellent reputation). Moreover, the residents of Medinah (and Aisha was still a leader in those circles) did not approve of the transformation of Islam into a Roman-style world empire ruled from Damascus. They thought the time of the Prophet in Medinah should remain the model for the community.
p.s. 18 seems a little young. She married the Prophet in 619 and he dies in 632, so that is 13 years of marriage. She is probably somewhere in her early to mid-20s, which is still plenty young of course. By 656 and the Battle of the Camel, she would have been a very mature woman.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks. It is not unusual for women to marry at such young age those day, but even as a non-Muslim, I can see that she must be a remarkable person. Married at an early age and entrusted into such heavy responsibility after the death of her husband to play some important political and leadership role in her community. It is interesting that she did not remarry or take a consort considering that she was a woman, and a man companion would really be preferable and useful during those days, not just for companionship but for protection as well, as women would deem helpless on their own.
All along history, we would find women entrusted in this kind of responsibility and become a symbol to her people. One of these in Christendom was Joan of Arc.
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Sam_777
Guest
Quran prevented her from remarrying again (Quran 33:53):
*"… And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him…".
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That is why at the age of 18 that ambitious widow had nothing to do except politics, she tried to be the Muslims Queen but the other Caliphs fought back, it’s all political games (till today) to control the people and the wealth…
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Reuben_J
Guest
Thanks Sam, especially for the Quran quote. It is out of curiosity, really. I was curious as to why she should not remarry, I mean she was very young and at a reproductive age. From what I gathered from Muslims, they seem to frown at celibacy. It’s no use talking to them about our celibate priests or nuns. To them any able bodied man should marry. Probably Mohammad led by example here when he allowed for a man to have four wives, though he himself can have more than four. Reason being, that there were widows that need to be taken care of, and some of his marriages were out of political expediency.
I should say I admire Aisha. She was sold, I mean given, to marriage by her father to a man who was old enough to be her grandfather though that probably a good thing in that era, at least in term of practicality and a secure future. In any case, Mohammad was anybody’s sugar daddy in our day comparison and so being betrothed to him was certainly a privilege for the child Aisha. As a non-Muslim and looking at it from that view, I don’t care much for Mohammad who was a scoundrel, shrewd and calculating but Aisha was put into a situation where she could not have any control over.
She lost all her childhood (probably) though the doll thing was mentioned in the Hadith but she was really a product of Mohammad’s ambition himself. Can’t blame her for the ambition, she was practically lived and brainwashed into it. She probably thought Mohammad’s legacy as a given for her being his favorite wife but of course the rest is history – the political infighting.
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Matthew_Holford
Guest
Thank you very much, Hypatia!
One thing I thought I knew was that there were some differences in praxis between Shi’a and Sunni. For example, I thought that Shi’a recognised some deceased Muslims as saints. I appreciate that is probably an inappropriate western term but I’m afraid I don’t know what else to call them. I also understand there are various religious shrines that Shi’a visit. It is my understanding, which I accept may be erroneous, that Sunnis believe this is not appropriate.
Even though Shi’a and Sunni Muslims may pray together and associate together in the west I do not believe this to be the case in other parts of the world. For example, why do populations of countries protest where the majority of Muslims are Shi’a but the government is Sunni. I believe that was the situation in Iraq when Saddam Hussein was the ruler. I also understand it is the cause of the current protests in Bahrain.
Is Wahhabi Islam practised in Saudi Arabia a form of Sunni Islam.
I do not know if Shi’as and Sunnis associate together where I live. I think most Muslims are from Bangladesh and Pakistan. I think the majority of Muslims from those countries are Sunni.
I admit to not being Wikipedia’s biggest fan; however, do you know if their article on Islam is a reliable article about your faith?
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