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MDK
Guest
Your identification of Religion “Former Christian now NOTHING” says quite a lot. If we leave Christ, we are nothing. Without Him, we can do nothing.
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jean8
Guest
Hello straumen,
The selling of indulgences was one of the reasons Luther posted his 95 Theses in 1517
Re: Concordia , The Luthran Confessional.
God bless,
jean
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jean8
Guest
J
jean8
Guest
doubtful,
The fact your here is hopeful.
The nice thing that God does for all of us is, He gives us the choice. He doesn’t drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven.
If you don’t want to go there, don’t worry, you won’t.Have you heard about the other place?
Praying for you,
jean
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motstraumen
Guest
Yes, Jean, the Concordia does contain the Lutheran stance on indulgences among other things. The sale of indulgences was the reason for the posting of the 95 Theses. These are not contained in the Book of Concord though. It is a wonderful book, especially the Augsburg Confession, Apology and the Small and Large Catechism, don’t you think?Hello straumen,
The selling of indulgences was one of the reasons Luther posted his 95 Theses in 1517
Re: Concordia , The Luthran Confessional.
God bless,
jean
Here is a link to read the 95 theses if you wish.
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/web/ninetyfive.html
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MDK
Guest
Lutheran pastor,
How are you? Unfortunately, you seem not to have a very good read on Luther. He was an extreme heretic and one of the fathers of what we have now in the problem of moral relativism… everyone having decided what their own morality is. It’s sad also that you would side with one who like those who rejected their Messiah, rejected seven books of the OT.
In the OT, there was the High priest, the ministerial priests, and the common priesthood. The OT is the New concealed, and the New is the Old revealed. The New Covenant Church has the High Priest in Jesus, the ministerial priesthood, and the common priesthood.
In truth, you are not a ministerial priest in God’s New Covenant Church. The Lutheran ecclesial community cannot be called a “church” in the proper sense. You can validly marry others and baptize… but, so can a Justice of the Peace. Contrast this with the ministerial priesthood of Christ which has seven valid and licit Sacraments. It’s very sad that people still follow what is a scandalous and intolerable rejection of what Christ established, in favor of earthly doctrines more easy for the mind of man to easily grasp, rather than keeping what Heavenly things are revealed by Christ, but are not as easily understood. What Luther did, and Lutheran pastors continue to do is to take wine that Christ made and make it into water.
Please wake up, for your own sake, and the sakes of the unfortunate people who are misguided by actually listening to the distortions of God’s word started by Luther and continued by those who prefer man’s teachings to God’s.
I pray for you, as I do for all those unfortunate enough not to be in God’s one true Church. We must all be one as He and the Father are One. The division started by Luther, and continued to this day by his followers (not truly Christ’s followers), is scandalous and intolerable. We must heal this rift, but the only way is through the truth. This means Lutherans need to stop rejecting the truth. The most Charitable thing we can do is to keep speaking the truth, even if it is a bit unpleasant to those on the wrong side of it. It is not easy for me, but defending what God taught is important enough to go through this.
God bless.
H
humble_in_doubt
Guest
I love how the religious have a tendency to end their intolerant rants with words like “god bless”? Or the Islamic posters here who end their tirades with tidings of peace and blessing from their Allah. We offer peace and love – unless you disagree. Then if your unfortunate enough to live in the middle east we’ll send a pre-teenage boy with a bomb strapped to his chest to send our well wishes. Thankfully here in the western world intelligence, logic, science, and enlightened views regarding personal freedom and human rights have shackled, restrained, and marginalized religion.
If there is a god (which of course there’s not – at least not in the form any world religion imagines) I’d thank him for the progression of men like Martin Luther, John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, Winston Churchill (agnostic/atheist) and all the rest who slowly unshackled the western world from theocracy and the tyranny that sprung from its world view. Or else we’d be living under the unkind whim of zealots – and I couldn’t think of a much worse place to live than that.
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MDK
Guest
Iowa,
No, unfortunately, you lack understanding of what I wrote. For example, I didn’t say they couldn’t be called Christians, which is how you must have misinterpreted. Lutherans are Christians, and can call themselves Christians, as long as they’re properly Baptized. This is so, even if for them, their ecclesial community is not a proper “church.”
What I said was they’re not truly following Christ, which is true, even if using a bit of hyperbole to make the point (following Christ who had used hyperbole). It was meant to discuss authority and who people really follow the teachings of. Lutherans follow what a heretic taught about Christ. This means there is someone who has perverted their understanding. Christ has one Church, which He protects the teachings of. Catholics hear Christ. Lutherans are predisposed to be clouded by Luther’s heretical beliefs, and then misinterpret our Book, the Sacred Scriptures. It’s nothing against their abilities, because no one can really interpret them correctly when taken out of the context which they were written, and away from the authority which God established to teach. Most anyone would get lost, and this is confirmed by the realities in our society today.
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MDK
Guest
Nevertheless, you must be discerning enough to understand the difference between discussing actions which legitimately can, and which some should be condemned, compared with an actual condemning of a person. To confuse these, as you do, is unfortunate, as it can cause hurt feelings, and has caused you to make false accusations which would be against God’s eighth commandment (a reality beyond your acknowledgment). Your insinuations above are off the mark, as you allude to someone condemning another when that hasn’t happened here. I specifically have practices and customs that keep me from doing what you have falsely claimed. Why? Because this is very important to me.
Many times, correctly condemning actions harmful to the person, or those disrespectful to Christ is an extremely charitable thing to do as it can help the person tremendously (if they listen). Please learn the important differences and what it means to discuss behaviors… condemning the heresy, while still loving the heretic. This is an act of love for defending Christ, and act of charity toward the person having the errant behavior(s).
Unfortunately, you don’t seem really very humble because you reject God as He told us He is. If you don’t change this, it may stink to be you on judgment day.
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MDK
Guest
Your signature block quote of Carl Sagan (also quoted below) shows the ignorance of the man quite well, and it naturally follows also of anyone who thinks that way.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
The quote makes perfect sense – it’s you whose left trying to defend the veracity of ancient writings that tell stories of god men who rose from the dead, talking snakes, rivers turned into blood, and all the rest. Objectively speaking my position is pretty easy to defend.
Of course all those you’re not able to force feed your mythology to are arrogant, prideful, indulgent, etc. Geesh … whatever!
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Instead they should have followed Johann Tetzel and Pope Leo X who were using fear tactics to scare money out of poor Germans to buy down the amount of time their dead relatives spent in purgatory? Oh but it get’s better – our friend Pope Leo (or should I say Pope Medici), ordained a bishop at the wise old age of 13, was a member of the leading banking family in Italy (actually in the world) at the time, the Medici’s (you might have heard of them). Coincidental the Vatican borrowed a bunch of money from Venetian bankers … you know for more golden candle sticks and a big brand new basilica. There was the poor Pope left wondering how to repay his relatives all that money the church borrowed – guess what he came up with? You guessed it … those poor gullible saps in Germany.
Oh yeah Martin Luther was a heretic alright. How dare he spoil such a great racket? The loud mouthed heathen
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PA650
Guest
In the end, certain Catholics need to familiarize themselves with the works of Luther and other reformers. Casually stating this particular individual was a heretic and thus you, as someone who adheres to their specific theology, needs to be corrected becomes quite repetitious over time. Moreover, humble in doubt, I’m quite sure you have read Thomas Paine’s The Age of Reason since certain of your statements bring that pamphlet to my mind.Instead they should have followed Johann Tetzel and Pope Leo X who were using fear tactics to scare money out of poor Germans to buy down the amount of time their dead relatives spent in purgatory? Oh but it get’s better – our friend Pope Leo (or should I say Pope Medici), ordained a bishop at the wise old age of 13, was a member of the leading banking family in Italy (actually in the world) at the time, the Medici’s (you might have heard of them). Coincidental the Vatican borrowed a bunch of money from Venetian bankers … you know for more golden candle sticks and a big brand new basilica. There was the poor Pope left wondering how to repay his relatives all that money the church borrowed – guess what he came up with? You guessed it … those poor gullible saps in Germany.
Oh yeah Martin Luther was a heretic alright. How dare he spoil such a great racket? The loud mouthed heathen
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MDK
Guest
I agree that it makes perfect sense to you, and Carl Sagan who is one of the most arrogant and ignorant among men. Those men are “too smart” to believe in God. This would be prideful arrogance.
A little science may lead one to disbelieve God. A lot of science brings the man to God. For instance, it is statistically without possibility that something as complex as the human eye occurred by accident, rather than was created. A creation demands that there be a Creator.
It is literally the most ignorant thing to say that there is no God. God is the greatest Reality in existence.
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MDK
Guest
As much as it pains adherents to improper “churches” which teach false doctrines, the Catholics who have done research into Luther and the “reformers” know well the truth, that Luther was a heretic, a massive heretic.
For instance, a heretic is one who is Baptized and who after being corrected with the true teaching, refuses to accept the truth, but remains in their error.
Typical Protestant heretical doctrines include:
Sola Scriptura - is heretical.
Sola Fide - is heretical.
Once Saved, Always Saved - is heretical.
Right of Private Interpretation of Scriptures - is heretical.
These ruin people’s faiths in the truth, and make them blind to what Christ actually taught. It is ignorance of truth, no matter how well intentioned one may be. As a consequence of following Luther, those adherents to Lutheranism (which was not built by God, but by man), have no ministerial priesthood, lack five of the valid and licit Sacraments including having no valid Eucharist, have taken our Scriptures out of their proper context, and distort the teachings based on the Bible alone and everyone is their own final interpreter. Lutherans really have no possible way of knowing if what they’re saying about faith and morals is indeed without error or is full of error.
Is is presumptuous to say that I call all adherents to Lutheranism heretics. Some may have not been told the truth about faith and morals. Some may be invincibly ignorant and therefore can’t be taught the true faith, for instance possibly due to some hard prejudice they were taught which clouds their ability to be open to the truth taught by Christ. I see many as fairly innocent victims of the false teachings of Luther. All the “reformers” were false teachers, and whose teachings are still victimizing those who may honestly love Christ.
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
There certainly is the problem of thinking nature created itself – but to say something like the human eye is so complex it “couldn’t” have been created by accident is without logical basis (moreover evolution can hardly be described as an “accident” – rather it’s a process. Something like the eye developed over perhaps millions of years). Sadly nothing you’ve said so far is very impressive. What I see frankly is an intolerant person… and zealotry rarely wins many friends – at least these days.
Why would anyone want to convert from protestantism to Catholicism after a dose of your rhetoric? After you’ve belittled their deeply held beliefs, spent a little more time beating them over the head with your rants about Luther … do you really expect anyone to join you in the Tiber? I weeded through the last couple pages here & I haven’t found a post authored by you where you haven’t demeaned, belittled, and insulted everyone you’ve communicated with (I’m sure most of the Catholics here probably want to say the same thing … I see one or two sort of lightly commented on your demeanor).
For goodness sake man – chill out would you! It’s an internet discussion board, your not a Templar chopping away at the heathens back in the 12th century
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humble_in_doubt
Guest
Thomas Paine was one of the greats.
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MDK
Guest
For the one who denies God, anyone who even remotely believes is by comparison like a zealot.
If God doesn’t impress you, then certainly I won’t either. However, this doesn’t mean I am wrong in God’s eyes.
The truth is never popular among those who prefer their own ways. For those adhering to pride and arrogance, truth is optional, and dispensable when it conflicts with their pride.
One who denies God has nothing in common with me, for whom everything is about God. Not understanding the spiritual element, you have no way of understanding me. However, I have a physical element, and it’s easy to understand you. Your rejection of God is not justifiable and is sadly divorced from reality.
I wasn’t talking about what mechanism or method was used, but whether a Creator existed behind the mechanism. Even if it was over a long time, without some purpose or motive force to come together, it would not. I was a top math student, and it’s simply not within the realm of probability that things turned out the way you claim. It makes absolutely no sense. Atheism is completely unsupportable in reality. It is the most wrong of any theory that man has promoted or promotes today.
Those are terrible things and they’re true, with the exception of your errant application to the things I’ve done. Likely, these are things you’re familiar with, as what I do you’re unfamiliar with. So, you don’t have a reference for understanding one who decries faith that is false and that hurts its adherents. These faults you claim may even be projection from you. Like your errant denial of God, you err in describing my behaviors and intent.
After hearing the truth of Protestantism, why would anyone want to be Protestant? It’s the same type of thing with abortion. People really need to open their eyes and if they never see what abortion is, they may never reject it for the harmful act that it is. I’m not here to tell someone that adherence to false faith systems is okay. It is not, including yours. Besides, it’s not me who converts, but the Holy Spirit (not that you’ll acknowledge that truth either).
Yes, I don’t like people being misled by those who teach falsely. What’s wrong with that. Besides, what I said is correct. You, however, have absolutely no way of knowing what is correct or not correct about faith or morals, because it is just what you make it to be for yourself.
It’s not unusual that people misunderstand, even some who are in the Catholic Church and who may not share the same complete set of beliefs as I do. Since you and I are so far apart, you really have almost no way of knowing me. You have no reference, because you do not understand people like me. If my behavior was errant, I would change it immediately. It is not perfect, but neither is it in moral error. Humility is something incompatible with those rejecting God, but a hallmark of those who love God.
Let them speak up if they desire. They have that right.
People normally don’t like conversing with someone with whom they have nothing in common and who add no truth to the conversation, but who condemn decent and justifiable behaviors, as well as demean the proper behaviors as well as people who adhere to decency. This is why there is no further reason to discuss with you. I wish you well and hopefully you’ll one day pull your head out of the sand before it’s too late.
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PA650
Guest
Certainly a well reasoned assessment from a Catholic perspective. Since I’m not going to partake in the tiring action of apologetic discussion, one interesting thread pertaining to Luther was entitled, Sin Boldly, which is a statement usually used to slander Luther and thus his theological viewpoints.
Humble_in_doubt, Thomas Paine was an eloquent writer and helped to sustain the American Revolution with his words. His The Age of Reason piece stated his religious opinions well even if I don’t agree with everything he posited.
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